Get out of Dodge

bajer101

My daughter was parentally abducted by her mother to the United States in 2011 and I got her back following a Hague hearing in America and secured sole custody in the Irish courts. After the Hague hearing in the States, my lawyers there told me to leave America immediately and don't ever risk returning. After the Irish hearings my solicitor and barrister told me that under no circumstances should I ever return to America or allow my daughter to visit her mother in America.

Since then the topic of visiting America has often come up and I have had to just knock it on the head straight away. My daughter's mother has asked me to allow our daughter to go visit, my family have gone to Orlando, but each time I have had to just say no - the lawyers have advised that we shouldn't ever visit America. When my daughter asks why we can't go to America, I say that I will explain when she is older.

Sometimes I question this and wonder where the problem would be? I have sole custody and I have court orders from both Irish and American courts to that effect. But I am not a legal expert so I bow to the advice of the legal experts from Ireland and America who have said don't do it. They told me that America's legal system is very complicated and expensive. I stumbled across this article tonight and it made it very easy for me to follow the lawyer's advice.




http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/opinion/pregnant-and-no-civil-rights.html?_r=1

slimjimmc

Excuse me if this sounds silly but if you don't know the problem then why the heck don't you ask your lawyers their reasoning why you should never return to the USA. They're advising you so they should know.

cerastes

I dont get the link?
what age is the child? did she know she was taken from her mother? legally or why?
Tell her you cant go legally, that its a legal thing, dont just fob her off with a years down the road excuse, give her some reasonable explanation comensurate with her age. (thats my opinion, but run this by someone and your own views).

Would you be able to go without the wifes knowledge do you think?

bajer101

The US lawyers do know the problem and they explained it to me. After the case was won, they advised me to leave America immediately and to never return. The case was won at a Federal level but that wouldn't prevent a local court having a hearing and making a different ruling. It was explained to me that the District court would be wrong and would be proved to be wrong, but it could cost me a lot of money to get that ruling. The simple advice was to just not give them any chance to have jurisdiction. My Irish solicitor and Barrister basically said the same thing and told me to never set foot in America again.

bajer101

cerastes wrote: »

I dont get the link?
what age is the child? did she know she was taken from her mother? legally or why?
Tell her you cant go legally, that its a legal thing, dont just fob her off with a years down the road excuse, give her some reasonable explanation comensurate with her age. (thats my opinion, but run this by someone and your own views).

Would you be able to go without the wifes knowledge do you think?

My daughter is seven now. She was three at the time she was taken and turned four while she was there. She knew she was taken from her mother while she was there as a team of US Marshals surrounded the house and took her into protective custody. There was a child care professional with them who managed that to minimise the trauma and by all accounts it was handled very well. She does know the broader strokes of what happened, but it's difficult the explain the legalities of all that is involved.

I have toyed with the idea of joining the rest of my family in the annual visit to Orlando but discounted that straight away. My daughter talks to her mother on Skype and it would come up and I don't really want to go down the road of that sort of deception. And, the lawyers have told me - just don't go to America. The easier solution is to pay for her mother to come her to visit her. This is a very complicated situation.

The main point of my post was to highlight how bizarre American law can be, and thus the linked article (which should hopefully be visible now). When I read the article tonight it just reminded me how right all the lawyers were when they advised me to stay away from America.

Ken.

This might be over simplifying things and I don't know the whole story obviously but could you not ask the family to go somewhere else next year so she can go. Spain,Portugal,France. One year would hardly kill them. I'm gonna assume they know why she can't go to the states.

cerastes

bajer101 wrote: »

My daughter is seven now. She was three at the time she was taken and turned four while she was there. She knew she was taken from her mother while she was there as a team of US Marshals surrounded the house and took her into protective custody. There was a child care professional with them who managed that to minimise the trauma and by all accounts it was handled very well. She does know the broader strokes of what happened, but it's difficult the explain the legalities of all that is involved.

I have toyed with the idea of joining the rest of my family in the annual visit to Orlando but discounted that straight away. My daughter talks to her mother on Skype and it would come up and I don't really want to go down the road of that sort of deception. And, the lawyers have told me - just don't go to America. The easier solution is to pay for her mother to come her to visit her. This is a very complicated situation.

The main point of my post was to highlight how bizarre American law can be, and thus the linked article (which should hopefully be visible now). When I read the article tonight it just reminded me how right all the lawyers were when they advised me to stay away from America.

Tell the mother not to bring travel up anymore if she knows the circumstances, if she was removed from the mother for legal reasons. Personally Id consider telling her if she upsets the child it might lead to less contact, but Id be wary of bringing that up to harshly or without seeking professional advice first from a child support professional, but if its causing distress, you seem to consider the mother coming here, but presumably wouldnt allow her time alone if your daughter was previously, whats sounds like a kidnapping, not sure why you'd pay for her trip. Also there is the idea of a trip with family to Europe, Spain etc as suggested.

If I was concerned about the issue of travel and was advised not to go somewhere, after the first instance of it being mentioned, Id have told the mother never to bring it up again as the child is young and it might cause upset and confusion.

You need to take your own or other professional advice from some kind of childcare support worker here as what is the best thing to do about speaking to the mother and what to say and what is best for the child.

the linked article was visible, it just seemed to be about something else

bajer101

ken wrote: »

This might be over simplifying things and I don't know the whole story obviously but could you not ask the family to go somewhere else next year so she can go. Spain,Portugal,France. One year would hardly kill them. I'm gonna assume they know why she can't go to the states.

It's not exactly that there is an organised trip every year to Orlando. It's just that it is a regular destination and it tends to get tagged on to. It just comes up when I have to try to explain to my daughter why we can't go to Florida when others are going there. Others from the family don't go there every year. It's just that my reason for not going is a bit more difficult to explain. Maybe I should just say - we don't have the money :-)

cerastes

bajer101 wrote: »

It's not exactly that there is an organised trip every year to Orlando. It's just that it is a regular destination and it tends to get tagged on to. It just comes up when I have to try to explain to my daughter why we can't go to Florida when others are going there. Others from the family don't go there every year. It's just that my reason for not going is a bit more difficult to explain. Maybe I should just say - we don't have the money :-)

Probably, or ask the family not to bring up their holiday plans or take a trip elsewhere with them.

Its possible the mother might have something lined up legally if you went there on holidays, so just rule it out and dont go, doesnt seem that difficult.
Then get professional advice how to speak to the child about not going or what to say from a person qualified to do so, so as not to distress or upset the child, ask them what you should say re the mother bringing up travel and how to deal with that.

bajer101

cerastes wrote: »

Tell the mother not to bring travel up anymore if she knows the circumstances, if she was removed from the mother for legal reasons. Personally Id consider telling her if she upsets the child it might lead to less contact, but Id be wary of bringing that up to harshly or without seeking professional advice first from a child support professional, but if its causing distress, you seem to consider the mother coming here, but presumably wouldnt allow her time alone if your daughter was previously, whats sounds like a kidnapping, not sure why you'd pay for her trip. Also there is the idea of a trip with family to Europe, Spain etc as suggested.

If I was concerned about the issue of travel and was advised not to go somewhere, after the first instance of it being mentioned, Id have told the mother never to bring it up again as the child is young and it might cause upset and confusion.

You need to take your own or other professional advice from some kind of childcare support worker here as what is the best thing to do about speaking to the mother and what to say and what is best for the child.

the linked article was visible, it just seemed to be about something else

Thanks for the considered response. You are correct, the linked article is about a completely different issue, but when I read it it triggered something with me about the American legal system that reminded me about my own situation.

Her mother has brought up the request about her visiting America and I shot that down and explained to her why. It's a non-negotiable and it doesn't come up any more. I am paying for the mother to come over to Ireland for my daughter - not for her mother. She is her mother and I never speak badly about her and it will be good for my daughter. There is huge and obvious trauma caused from all this. There are abandonment issues from her thinking that I abandoned her and now that her mother has abandoned her. She has a very strong family around her. One of my sisters is a psychiatrist and the other is psychologist and we live very close to each other. She sees a child psychologist every week. It's not easy but she is a great kid and is doing fine.

The holidays in America are not an issue. It's just an awkward conversation now and then. We have great holidays and our thing is theme parks and roller coasters, which we both love. Instead of Orlando this year we hit two theme parks in Germany and then flew on to Tenerife. Best holiday ever!

bajer101

cerastes wrote: »

Probably, or ask the family not to bring up their holiday plans or take a trip elsewhere with them.

Its possible the mother might have something lined up legally if you went there on holidays, so just rule it out and dont go, doesnt seem that difficult.
Then get professional advice how to speak to the child about not going or what to say from a person qualified to do so, so as not to distress or upset the child, ask them what you should say re the mother bringing up travel and how to deal with that.

That's it exactly. There is the danger that the mother could have a legal challenge lined up in America which makes it impossible to visit. The only other issue is then having to explain to my daughter why we can't got to America and that is where I stumble and end up telling her that I will explain it all to her when she is older. I never really know what to say when it comes up without saying that her Mam is a fúckin sociaopath. I need to come up with a better response than "I'll explain it all to you when you're older".

Thanks.

Ken.

This is a purely personal opinion but if it was me and the mother was coming to visit I'd be meeting her at the airport and handing her a gps tracker. Preferably I'd be fitting an ankle bracelet to her.

cerastes

ken wrote: »

This is a purely personal opinion but if it was me and the mother was coming to visit I'd be meeting her at the airport and handing her a gps tracker. Preferably I'd be fitting an ankle bracelet to her.

to the mother or the child? :eek:
Sure the mother could probably disable it if they wanted to.
You might be able to put one on the child that isnt noticeable, but it could probably be detected by a hug? you probably wouldnt be able to rely on it, just as additional backup in the event you got seperated when you were with them.

As for that anyway, if anyone, effectively kidnapped my child, in this case the other person is a parent, other than that, not at all.
but you wouldnt leave them with or near that person, never mind alone, and not rely on a gps device.

bajer101

ken wrote: »

This is a purely personal opinion but if it was me and the mother was coming to visit I'd be meeting her at the airport and handing her a gps tracker. Preferably I'd be fitting an ankle bracelet to her.

I was like that a couple of years ago the last time she visited. I initially insisted on supervised visits only but then I relaxed a bit and allowed sleepovers if I had the mother's passport and checked in every day. Two years down the road and a lot of court cases and dealings with the Gardai and DPP I'm prepared to be a bit more relaxed. The DPP decided not to prosecute as there was a decent outcome. There have been a lot of parental abduction cases in Ireland and it seems to be only the men who get prosecuted - but that's a different discussion. But my case was very high profile and she knows that if she tries anything that she will be in very serious trouble. It involved passport fraud and she knows that she will be locked up if she tries anything again. There's a lock on any application for passports and the risk is minimal. She doesn't have the resources to disappear. We talk amicably enough and both try to now do the best for our daughter and I am happy enough to trust her with our daughter over the Christmas. I'd be lying if I said that I am completely happy and relaxed about it, but it is good for our daughter.

bajer101

cerastes wrote: »

to the mother or the child? :eek:
Sure the mother could probably disable it if they wanted to.
You might be able to put one on the child that isnt noticeable, but it could probably be detected by a hug? you probably wouldnt be able to rely on it, just as additional backup in the event you got seperated when you were with them.

As for that anyway, if anyone, effectively kidnapped my child, in this case the other person is a parent, other than that, not at all.
but you wouldnt leave them with or near that person, never mind alone, and not rely on a gps device.

She won't take her again. I know this. She had a team of US Marshals surround her house and came withing an inch of getting locked up the last time. I don't think she realised how serious it was, but she certainly knows now. When I went to America to get my daughter back, the Marshals asked me if I had a Cell phone number for her. I only found out after that they wanted this so that they could track her. They don't mess about over there.

This will be a good Christmas for my daughter. She will see her Mam and half sister on Christmas eve when we collect them in the airport on Christmas eve (which will be a big surprise) and she will spend nearly all of the following two weeks with them. I'll be a little bit nervous but it will be fine.

Peregrinus

I think the issue is basically this: If the mother comes to Ireland, takes the child and brings her to the US, you have a Hague convention claim which is quick and effective. But if you bring the child to the US (or allow her to go there) and the mother takes the child in the US, you don't have a Hague Convention claim; you have a purely domestic US custody dispute, governed by the law of whatever state this happens in. You are on your own; the Irish public authorities will not get involved; the Hague Convention rules do not apply; it's up to you to instruct US lawyers to pursue a custody claim in the US. You do not ever want to find yourself in that position.

Head The Wall

bajer101 wrote: »

I was like that a couple of years ago the last time she visited. I initially insisted on supervised visits only but then I relaxed a bit and allowed sleepovers if I had the mother's passport and checked in every day. Two years down the road and a lot of court cases and dealings with the Gardai and DPP I'm prepared to be a bit more relaxed. The DPP decided not to prosecute as there was a decent outcome. There have been a lot of parental abduction cases in Ireland and it seems to be only the men who get prosecuted - but that's a different discussion. But my case was very high profile and she knows that if she tries anything that she will be in very serious trouble. It involved passport fraud and she knows that she will be locked up if she tries anything again. There's a lock on any application for passports and the risk is minimal. She doesn't have the resources to disappear. We talk amicably enough and both try to now do the best for our daughter and I am happy enough to trust her with our daughter over the Christmas. I'd be lying if I said that I am completely happy and relaxed about it, but it is good for our daughter.

You call her a sociopath yet you still want the mother to be in contact with her? While you might feel better about the situation don't underestimate the lengths some people will go to get their own way, they will play the long game.

What if she gave you a fake passport and flew back on her real one, that's not much good to you is it?

bajer101

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think the issue is basically this: If the mother comes to Ireland, takes the child and brings her to the US, you have a Hague convention claim which is quick and effective. But if you bring the child to the US (or allow her to go there) and the mother takes the child in the US, you don't have a Hague Convention claim; you have a purely domestic US custody dispute, governed by the law of whatever state this happens in. You are on your own; the Irish public authorities will not get involved; the Hague Convention rules do not apply; it's up to you to instruct US lawyers to pursue a custody claim in the US. You do not ever want to find yourself in that position.

I'd like to agree with you as that would be a cast iron reason, but that's not my understanding. A Hague ruling has already been made in America. That ruling states that Ireland has jurisdiction regarding my daughter and that ruling is effective in all States. It's a Federal Court ruling based on an international treaty - it will trump any attempted case, I'm not worried about ultimately winning a case. I'm worried about having to get involved in a case in the first place.

What would happen if I visited there and she took custody of my daughter and called the police and said I tried to attack her? Maybe I talk to police and explain everything and show them that I have sole custody and it would all be fine. Or maybe not. Maybe she says I abused my daughter? What would happen then? I#m pretty sure that I'm not just getting back on a plane to Ireland and that I am involved in court case where I yet again have to pay for lawyers and where she gets free legal aid. That's my cast iron case for never returning to America.

Head The Wall wrote: »

You call her a sociopath yet you still want the mother to be in contact with her? While you might feel better about the situation don't underestimate the lengths some people will go to get their own way, they will play the long game.

What if she gave you a fake passport and flew back on her real one, that's not much good to you is it?

Of course I want my daughter to be in contact with her mother. She's her mother! I know the lengths that she would go to to get her own way - I will never trust her. But I have to be pragmatic. I know her. She has no intention of taking my daughter. She's shaping up to try and move back here.

...__...

Perhaps take her on a suprise trip where she wouldnt be able to tell the mother before hand?
Maybe only stay for four or five nights to minimise the chance of the mother finding out while you are there possibly leave all phones in Ireland.

nuac

You have got good legal advice. Stay out of the US and keep your daughter out of US.

It is possible to properly rear a child without a trip to Orlando etc. Many have.

TeaBagMania

The only way I see this working is if the mother agrees to give up all legal rights. You would need to consult an attorney in the US and have the appropriate documents drafted and maybe even signed by a judge. Then I would do the same in Ireland so you’re covered in both countries.
You need expert legal advice for sure

Ken.

TeaBagMania wrote: »

The only way I see this working is if the mother agrees to give up all legal rights. You would need to consult an attorney in the US and have the appropriate documents drafted and maybe even signed by a judge. Then I would do the same in Ireland so you’re covered in both countries.
You need expert legal advice for sure

That may work but it's an awful lot cheaper to not go to America.