Mechanic crashed car, has no garage insurance.

hogeybear

Today, my father in law dropped his newly imported car ( 91 mazda eunos roadster) off at a garage for some work to be done, small stuff like pre nct checks. apparently he needed a part so he took the car out on to a public road,without permission, and promptly crashed into another car. He told my father that he has no garage insurance. Who is liable here? Understandably, the issue of the other car isn't a problem as that will be covered under my father in laws insurance, but what about the damage to the mazda?

corkgsxr

I still wouldn't be happy putting a claim on his insurance. Grand for the garage and you get screwed in premiums over it

hogeybear

I know but what are the alternatives? Certainly wouldn't want the other car to get duped by the garage too.

pippip

I'd start by reporting it to the gardai.

hogeybear

That was the first thing done tbh. He's up there now trying to sort it out. I told him to not accept liability regardless. Who knows what he will actually say though. He's kind of non confrontational.

martinr5232

Not much of a garage if they dont even have a motor traders policy.

You will need to find out what the mechanics policy is but it probably states not for commercial use anyway.

Looks like it will be court unless the "mechanic" holds his hands up and sorts out both cars.

He's a mechanic, can he not fix the cars?

Dial Hard

Deleted User wrote: »

He's a mechanic, can he not fix the cars?

He's a mechanic, not necessarily a panel-beater.

If the driver is uninsured why do you think the other car is covered? Was it a garage or a lad doing work on cars for cash?

kay 9

What a twat of a mechanic. Good no one was hurt though. He had to be given permission to drive it for your father to have to cover

Del2005

kay 9 wrote: »

What a twat of a mechanic. Good no one was hurt though. He had to be given permission to drive it for your father to have to cover

By giving a mechanic your car you are giving them permission to drive it. I wouldn't trust a mechanic that doesn't test drive a car after working on it and for a lot of faults, even if the owner thinks that they know the problem, the mechanic will still drive it to verify.

Every insurance policy I've had has had a clause saying mechanics are insured to drive, don't know how that works when they don't have their own policy. But regardless of the mechanics insurance status he should cover the damage to both cars, assuming he is found to be at fault.

ballooba

Your father in law's insurance will not cover the mechanic. At least my insurance specifically and quite prominently excludes use in connection with servicing.

Chimaera

The Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland maintains a fund to cover claims against uninsured drivers. If the worst comes to the worst, this is where the cost of the damage will be covered, to the third party at least. Your father is probably within his rights to sue the mechanic for damages if he can't cover them by other means. It's time to talk to a solicitor I think.

hogeybear

He never asked if he could drive it but he wasn't told he couldn't either. There is normally an assumption that the garage would be covered though. Not an unreasonable assumption either. I rang my insurance company to ask, different company but a similar policy, they said the other car would be covered.

bazz26

Your FIL's insurance company are obliged to cover the claim by the third party.

Real dumb ass taking a customer's car out on a public road when he knows he has no garage cover. Actually is his business even registered or is he a part time mechanic working out of his shed at the back of his house?

Fey!

Del2005 wrote: »

Every insurance policy I've had has had a clause saying mechanics are insured to drive

I've always had the opposite of that; mine have always stated that my policy didn't cover motor trade for the purposes of their business (I can't remember the exact phrase off the top of my head, and I can't find a sample certificate online)

OP; your FiL's insurance may cover the third party, and then your insurance company may go after the mechanic for its costs. Your FiL will probably have to go after the mechanic directly for his costs. In the meantime he is quite likely to lose his NCB, at least until his insurance company get their costs back.

Get him to speak directly with his insurance company or their assessor.

Caliden

I only see it going one way, the mechanic pays for the lot.

hogeybear

It's an actual garage.

Neilw

Roughly how much damage was done?
Is the mechanic a registered business?

Is the damage is less than €2k I'd report it to the guards first and then try the small claims court.

kay 9

Name and shame this clown so it doesn't happen to some other unfortunate customer. If he hasn't got the iq to know whether or not he's insured or has the gall to take someone else's car on a public road knowingly without insurance I wouldn't let him near a wheelbarrow.

mgbgt1978

ballooba wrote: »

Your father in law's insurance will not cover the mechanic. At least my insurance specifically and quite prominently excludes use in connection with servicing.

But he wasn't driving your car

sjb25

My insurance states it covers use by members of the motor trade for repairs etc can't remember the exact wording but I wouldn't claim on it let the mechanic pay for both cars if he is a proper garage he should be insured take him to court over it if need be

Del2005

sjb25 wrote: »

My insurance states it covers use by members of the motor trade for repairs etc can't remember the exact wording but I wouldn't claim on it let the mechanic pay for both cars if he is a proper garage he should be insured take him to court over it if need be

You have no choice. When you take out an insurance policy you give the insurance company complete control over all claims. There is an innocent 3rd party out of pocket here and if they make a claim it'll come off your policy as that's the vehicle that caused the claim. It'd then be up to you to chase the mechanic to recoup your costs but if he can't afford a proper garage policy there's little chance he'll have the money to repay, this is the reason why legitimate companies cost more as when stuff goes wrong you have a better chance of getting a good result.

bladespin

Del2005 wrote: »

By giving a mechanic your car you are giving them permission to drive it.

I would definitely dispute that, assumed consent means nothing.

Del2005

bladespin wrote: »

I would definitely dispute that, assumed consent means nothing.

What job, apart from changing a bulb, doesn't require a test drive after to verify that the issue has been resolved?

Gael23

This is what happens when people go to back street mechanics.
You will need to involve the guards and if that gets you nowhere then it's small claims court as I imagine the car is fairly low value being 1991 reg.

corktina

ryanf1 wrote: »

This is what happens when people go to back street mechanics.
You will need to involve the guards and if that gets you nowhere then it's small claims court as I imagine the car is fairly low value being 1991 reg.

fail...91 Mazda Eunos would be reasonably sought after, bordering on Classic status

FISMA

hogeybear wrote: »

He told my father that he has no garage insurance.

On which you are taking his word.

Maybe he does and would prefer to have the father's premiums go up instead of his.

Sorry to say - CYA. He who does so first, wins.

pablo128

FISMA wrote: »

On which you are taking his word.

Maybe he does and would prefer to have the father's premiums go up instead of his.

Sorry to say - CYA. He who does so first, wins.

I was about to post something similar.

OTH

I think you're all jumping the gun a bit. It's normal practice for mechanics to take cars out for a test drive before returning them to the customer. If the crash only happened yesterday the car has probably not been checked out fully yet. How do you know the crash wasn't caused by a fault in the car??If it's an import it's either from Japan or UK. Do you know the complete history of the car. It could have a dodgy past. Maybe your father in law got sold a bummer!!

Hachiko

Deleted User wrote: »

He's a mechanic, can he not fix the cars?

tbh, from what i read i would not trust him to make a slice of toast.

Tail Docker

Hachiko wrote: »

tbh, from what i read i would not trust him to make a slice of toast.

Any idea how often mechanics crash customers cars during "test drives"?:) Rather a lot, as it happens. Often pretty pricey cars too.

Special Circumstances

OTH wrote: »

I think you're all jumping the gun a bit. It's normal practice for mechanics to take cars out for a test drive before returning them to the customer. If the crash only happened yesterday the car has probably not been checked out fully yet. How do you know the crash wasn't caused by a fault in the car??If it's an import it's either from Japan or UK. Do you know the complete history of the car. It could have a dodgy past. Maybe your father in law got sold a bummer!!

No insurance, public road.
Thick or scummy.

mgbgt1978

OTH wrote: »

I think you're all jumping the gun a bit. It's normal practice for mechanics to take cars out for a test drive before returning them to the customer. If the crash only happened yesterday the car has probably not been checked out fully yet. How do you know the crash wasn't caused by a fault in the car??If it's an import it's either from Japan or UK. Do you know the complete history of the car. It could have a dodgy past. Maybe your father in law got sold a bummer!!

1st post, eh. Read the Op's post. The mechanic was taking the car to collect 'some part' that was needed (apparently), not taking it for a test drive.
Obviously the mechanic could have taken his own car, but the MX-5 probably seemed like a better idea

puss

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

1st post, eh. Read the Op's post. The mechanic was taking the car to collect 'some part' that was needed (apparently), not taking it for a test drive.
Obviously the mechanic could have taken his own car, but the MX-5 probably seemed like a better idea

If the mechanic has his own car and has driving other cars on his policy - would he be covered to drive the OP's car?

pablo128

Tail Docker wrote: »

Any idea how often mechanics crash customers cars during "test drives"?:) Rather a lot, as it happens. Often pretty pricey cars too.

I saw a co-worker back in 2001 crash a brand new, as in cling film on the bumpers and plastic on the seats new BMW 530d into a truck in reverse, doing 7k worth of damage. :eek:

mgbgt1978

puss wrote: »

If the mechanic has his own car and has driving other cars on his policy - would he be covered to drive the OP's car?

Not really what I was getting at.
It would depend on the wording of his policy....but almost certainly would not cover any damage to the car he was driving.


edit; assuming you're referring to a personal policy rather than trade insurance of some sort.

okidoki987

Is the garage reputable or is it a bank street version?
The motor trade have to have insurance so when he says he wasn't insured have you checked with the garage itself.
Is it a member of SIMI?
As already said, the FIL insurance will cover the damaged other party but the FIL may pay for it with higher premiums in the future.

mgbgt1978

okidoki987 wrote: »

Is the garage reputable or is it a bank street version?
The motor trade have to have insurance so when he says he wasn't insured have you checked with the garage itself.
Is it a member of SIMI?
As already said, the FIL insurance will cover the damaged other party but the FIL may pay for it with higher premiums in the future.

Why SIMI, just WHY ????
Unless you're a spokesperson for them, then why even mention them

puss

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Not really what I was getting at.
It would depend on the wording of his policy....but almost certainly would not cover any damage to the car he was driving.


edit; assuming you're referring to a personal policy rather than trade insurance of some sort.

Yes his personal policy.

cerastes

hogeybear wrote: »

Today, my father in law dropped his newly imported car ( 91 mazda eunos roadster) off at a garage for some work to be done, small stuff like pre nct checks. apparently he needed a part so he took the car out on to a public road,without permission, and promptly crashed into another car. He told my father that he has no garage insurance. Who is liable here? Understandably, the issue of the other car isn't a problem as that will be covered under my father in laws insurance, but what about the damage to the mazda?

wut the actual F?
Dont know how or why you think or assume that, isnt that what MIBI are for? the driver had no insurance, what was the job to be done? Why did the mechanic take the car to get a part?? and as such not a test drive, not really the same.
Sounds like he thought it was nice, took it for a burn and crashed it.
Id be seeking legal advice, Gardai and contact insurance.

Next, as someone alse said, maybe garage does have insurance, but doesnt want to affect it. why should your fathers policy and NCB be affected??

hogeybear wrote: »

I know but what are the alternatives? Certainly wouldn't want the other car to get duped by the garage too.

At the moment, while sympathetic to them, thats not your fathers fault or problem, thats the mechanics fault and problem.
I suppose its a genuine crash and not some scam???

Chimaera wrote: »

The Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland maintains a fund to cover claims against uninsured drivers. If the worst comes to the worst, this is where the cost of the damage will be covered, to the third party at least. Your father is probably within his rights to sue the mechanic for damages if he can't cover them by other means. It's time to talk to a solicitor I think.

absolutely

Tail Docker

cerastes wrote: »

wut the actual F?
Dont know how or why you think or assume that, isnt that what MIBI are for? the driver had no insurance, what was the job to be done?
At the moment, while sympathetic to them, thats not your fathers fault or problem, thats the mechanics fault and problem.
I suppose its a genuine crash and not some scam???



absolutely

Have a google at a recent UK case - lad sells bike, all legit, doesn't cancel insurance though...new owner crashes bike ten days ish later and dies in the crash, causing a lot of harm in the process..new owner had no licence/insurance...the original owners policy paid out to all involved and the original owner gets prosecuted for allowing an unlicenced/uninsured driver ride his bike....despite the legitimate sale of the bike....

That's a game changer as far as insurance goes, literally. In this case, that has implications for the FIL...and all the rest of us too. Cancel your insurance the minute you sell a vehicle, that's todays top tip from me. And make sure your mechanic has garage insurance..the hints in the name..this has also bankrupted the original owner of the bike. House, the lot, gone..

cerastes

Tail Docker wrote: »

Have a google at a recent UK case - lad sells bike, all legit, doesn't cancel insurance though...new owner crashes bike ten days ish later and dies in the crash, causing a lot of harm in the process..new owner had no licence/insurance...the original owners policy paid out to all involved and the original owner gets prosecuted for allowing an unlicenced/uninsured driver ride his bike....despite the legitimate sale of the bike....

That's a game changer as far as insurance goes, literally. In this case, that has implications for the FIL...and all the rest of us too. Cancel your insurance the minute you sell a vehicle, that's todays top tip from me. And make sure your mechanic has garage insurance..the hints in the name..this has also bankrupted the original owner of the bike. House, the lot, gone..

And are they going to provide a cert, on the wall of the premises?
I agree, but how many times does this occur?

pudzey101

keep us posted the outcome will be interesting , surely the mechanic ( DONT POST NAME OR LOCATION ) will pay for the car damage out of hand and replacement of both cars if he wants to keep his business , tricky one alright ...

Tail Docker

cerastes wrote: »

And are they going to provide a cert, on the wall of the premises?
I agree, but how many times does this occur?

Ask. Simple as. Might root a few cowboys out on their ears.

Del2005

puss wrote: »

If the mechanic has his own car and has driving other cars on his policy - would he be covered to drive the OP's car?

Once you mention that you are working in the trade it's nearly impossible to get the 3rd party extension for driving other cars. And even if they had it it doesn't cover the car they are driving.

cerastes wrote: »

wut the actual F?
Dont know how or why you think or assume that, isnt that what MIBI are for? the driver had no insurance, what was the job to be done? Why did the mechanic take the car to get a part?? and as such not a test drive, not really the same.

There was a story a while ago of where a person had their car stolen and someone successfully claimed against their policy after the thief crashed the car. The fact that the mechanic was handed the keys could also be a factor.

bladespin

Del2005 wrote:

What job, apart from changing a bulb, doesn't require a test drive after to verify that the issue has been resolved?

Means nothing, assuming something gives you no legal status, same as OP assuming the mechanic was insured to do the work in the first place.

mickdw

Tail Docker wrote: »

Have a google at a recent UK case - lad sells bike, all legit, doesn't cancel insurance though...new owner crashes bike ten days ish later and dies in the crash, causing a lot of harm in the process..new owner had no licence/insurance...the original owners policy paid out to all involved and the original owner gets prosecuted for allowing an unlicenced/uninsured driver ride his bike....despite the legitimate sale of the bike....

That's a game changer as far as insurance goes, literally. In this case, that has implications for the FIL...and all the rest of us too. Cancel your insurance the minute you sell a vehicle, that's todays top tip from me. And make sure your mechanic has garage insurance..the hints in the name..this has also bankrupted the original owner of the bike. House, the lot, gone..

Very interesting.
Last time I sold a car private, I contacted AXA to tell them that I no longer owned the car and that I would be getting a new car the following week.
You would think it was the strangest request ever. AXA said that there's nothing for them to do, just leave it run until I gave them new car details. I said I was not particularly happy with that as I no longer owned the car and was no longer responsible for it. The woman on the phone said all she could do was cancel my policy but I would then lose the bonus built up for that year.
In the end, she went away and came back saying she could put a note on my file stating car was now sold. This is what was done in the end but you would swear it was a situation that never cropped up before. Are people not contacting their insurers when they sell cars?

bazz26

mickdw wrote: »

Very interesting.
Last time I sold a car private, I contacted AXA to tell them that I no longer owned the car and that I would be getting a new car the following week.
You would think it was the strangest request ever. AXA said that there's nothing for them to do, just leave it run until I gave them new car details. I said I was not particularly happy with that as I no longer owned the car and was no longer responsible for it. The woman on the phone said all she could do was cancel my policy but I would then lose the bonus built up for that year.
In the end, she went away and came back saying she could put a note on my file stating car was now sold. This is what was done in the end but you would swear it was a situation that never cropped up before. Are people not contacting their insurers when they sell cars?

Strange practice alright. When I sold a car privately and didn't buy a replacement for a few weeks I told my insurance company and they then put my policy temporarily on hold until I transferred it to the new car.

To Elland Back

mickdw wrote: »

Very interesting.
Last time I sold a car private, I contacted AXA to tell them that I no longer owned the car and that I would be getting a new car the following week.
You would think it was the strangest request ever. AXA said that there's nothing for them to do, just leave it run until I gave them new car details. I said I was not particularly happy with that as I no longer owned the car and was no longer responsible for it. The woman on the phone said all she could do was cancel my policy but I would then lose the bonus built up for that year.
In the end, she went away and came back saying she could put a note on my file stating car was now sold. This is what was done in the end but you would swear it was a situation that never cropped up before. Are people not contacting their insurers when they sell cars?

When you sell your car and don't have an immediate replacement, the insurer would be right in cancelling the policy, as the subject matter of the policy (the car) is no longer in your possession. If the time lag between the old and the new car is only a week, they should have offered to suspend cover (credit on the premium is not given for less than 30 days suspension).

The problem for insurers is that a week to get your new vehicle can turn into 2 weeks and then 3 etc. and you cannot maintain an insurance policy where you don't own a vehicle