The Jewish Religion- what religion does it want the world to have ?

masculinist

How easy is it to convert to Judaism ? I read that a child is not automatically Jewish unless the mother is Jewish also. Bearing in mind some of the things I have read such as Judaism not being evangelical , I am wondering with regard to this religion what do they exactly want for mankind ? Most religions seem to want conversions and for you to follow the rules of the religion so why doesnt Judaism want atheists, agnostics, Christians etc to become Jewish ? Or do they ? Would a Jewish Rabbii wish an atheist to ''see the light'' and convert to Judaism ? If not then why not if this will 'save his soul' ?

I cant seem to find a generic forum inside of ''Religion and Spirituality'' to ask this question so apologies if I choose the wrong section to post this.

Oryx

I dont know if it will hit your target audience here, but I hope it does. Interesting question.

smcgiff

Oryx wrote: »

I dont know if it will hit your target audience here, but I hope it does. Interesting question.

Isn't it because they are the chosen people? And if you're not chosen...

masculinist

I am presuming that Buddha had his teachings because he 'wanted' [ironically as a buddha he was supposed to be freed from wants] people freed from the bonds of suffering and to reach Nirvana etc

Mohammed seems to want blind obedience but still also wants you to embrace God and the religion and enter heaven.

What does Judaism want or expect of non-Jewish souls ? Many Christians seem to believe that when Christ [the Messiah] returns then Jews will realise they were wrong and recognise him. Whats the Jewish game plan for judgement day in relation to non Jewish souls? As you can see, there are quite a few unanswered questions in this thread. Is this thread in the correct sub forum ?

Nomis21

I am a non practicing jew living in Ireland. I was brought up in the orthodox branch of judaism, my parents attended the synagogue on all the holy days and I had a Bar Mitzvah (Coming of age of jewish men).

Looking at the responses so far, it seems to me that so far, the replies are trying to judge judaism by Christian standards. There is no 'saving of souls' in Judaism, there is no interest in the members of other religions or any interest in anyone become jewish. Conversion to the jewish faith is very difficult, involving much study of jewish laws and traditions. Most of those who attempt don't make it.

We are the "chosen" by God. Complete Bull**** of course, mostly based on superstition, the same as all the other religions, but in the absence of any other civil laws, it was good for the time and the jewish dietary laws saved many lives at a time before hygiene was properly understood.

In my opinion, (speaking as a jew) that it was excluding others from joining and not trusting anyone who was not jewish which was partly to blame for the isolation of jews before World War 2

masculinist

Nomis21 wrote: »

Looking at the responses so far, it seems to me that so far, the replies are trying to judge judaism by Christian standards. There is no 'saving of souls' in Judaism

hey thanks a lot for your contribution. Now we are getting somewhere

I was aware that we all probably have a bias we dont even know about. Thats why when I mentioned saving souls in some way, I brought up the Buddhist standard too which is to save souls from the bonds of suffering.

Maybe reference to the Jewish religion isnt enough. Maybe I should ask not what Jews and Rabbis want but instead ask , what does the Jewish God want non Jews to do ? Does the Jewish God want different things of Jews from non Jews ? [ ignoring theological arguments like saying its the same God between Christianity,Judaism and Islam because for the purposes of the unique religion its a different God]

Nomis21

What I do like about my religion is that our God wants us to enjoy the good things in life like sex and wine.

What I don't like is all rules and not trusting anyone who is not of the faith.

masculinist

Nomis21 wrote: »

What I do like about my religion is that our God wants us to enjoy the good things in life like sex and wine.

That sounds good

However wasnt the old Testament full of stoning sinners to death and shunning them etc ?

Nomis21

Judaism like Christianity and currently Islam is full of people who use it to satisfy their own prejudices. That's why all religions are good in principle but subject to abuse by human nature.

Judaism is less concerned about sin than Christianity and Islam but a bit more than Buddhism.

I had a Buddhist girlfriend in Thailand who always lit an incense stick to the Buddha before we had sex. Her God obviously had no problem with unmarried lovers.

smcgiff

Nomis21 wrote: »

I had a Buddhist girlfriend in Thailand who always lit an incense stick to the Buddha before we had sex.

Praying for an improved lover? ;-)

smcgiff

Nomis21 wrote: »

the jewish dietary laws saved many lives at a time before hygiene was properly understood.

I've heard it proposed that pork was forbidden as it was very salty which is a concern in desert conditions, which then became a law and found it's way into religion.

masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

I've heard it proposed that pork was forbidden as it was very salty which is a concern in desert conditions, which then became a law and found it's way into religion.

Whats wrong with salty food in desert conditions ? I thought salt preserves food everywhere.
Anyway , is Pork naturally salty just a perception or is this just because of the way it is processed ? I don't seem to remember a pork chop being very salty at all.
I thought the problem with pork was that it did not store well and tended to carry parasites more easily than other meats ? Googling this question seems to result in page after page of people arguing with one another

Nomis21

smcgiff wrote: »

Praying for an improved lover? ;-)

All those years ago and I never thought about that

Nomis21

masculinist wrote: »

I thought the problem with pork was that it did not store well and tended to carry parasites more easily than other meats ?

Thats what I was told in hebrew classes. Tapeworm to be precise.

smcgiff

masculinist wrote: »

Whats wrong with salty food in desert conditions ?

Makes you thirsty. Ever have bacon and cabbage, need to boil and remove the water and boil again to make less salty... so I'm told.

masculinist

smcgiff wrote: »

Makes you thirsty. Ever have bacon and cabbage, need to boil and remove the water and boil again to make less salty... so I'm told.

I didnt consider that ...Probably due to my impression that the Palestine/Israel part to the west was less desertified than the Saudi Arabian peninsula to the east. But the main religions of that whole area mostly forbid pork.

Tigger

bacon is pork that has been heavily salted
pork isnt salty
you need salt in the desert
its about the parasites

katydid

masculinist wrote: »

How easy is it to convert to Judaism ? I read that a child is not automatically Jewish unless the mother is Jewish also. Bearing in mind some of the things I have read such as Judaism not being evangelical , I am wondering with regard to this religion what do they exactly want for mankind ? Most religions seem to want conversions and for you to follow the rules of the religion so why doesnt Judaism want atheists, agnostics, Christians etc to become Jewish ? Or do they ? Would a Jewish Rabbii wish an atheist to ''see the light'' and convert to Judaism ? If not then why not if this will 'save his soul' ?

I cant seem to find a generic forum inside of ''Religion and Spirituality'' to ask this question so apologies if I choose the wrong section to post this.

From what I understand of Judaism, to Jews it's much more than a religion or a belief system, but a way of life and an "ethnicity" (although that's not really the best word for it).
I presume that they consider themselves "the Chosen People" and that they don't need to go looking for people to join their religion, but will accept those who do wish to join, under certain circumstances.

masculinist

katydid wrote: »

From what I understand of Judaism, to Jews it's much more than a religion or a belief system, but a way of life and an "ethnicity" (although that's not really the best word for it).
I presume that they consider themselves "the Chosen People" and that they don't need to go looking for people to join their religion, but will accept those who do wish to join, under certain circumstances.

but what do they think God wants of non Jews ? Is there any theological view of this ? Does chosen people mean they are the ''elect'' and everyone else is ''the damned'' ? The damned and the elect Calvinist style ?

katydid

masculinist wrote: »

but what do they think God wants of non Jews ? Is there any theological view of this ? Does chosen people mean they are the ''elect'' and everyone else is ''the damned'' ? The damned and the elect Calvinist style ?

I don't really know. I can only speak from what I understand. My understanding is that they simply believe that they are the Chosen People. It's not a judgement of damnation on anyone else, it's just a simple believe that they are unique.

Terrlock

It's interesting the way people refer to The them as the Chosen People.

Where the Israelites not all the chosen people that where brought out of Egypt, of which were split into 12 tribes according to the scriptures of which the current Jews in Israel consist of only 2 of the tribes.

The rest of the 10 tribes were dispersed among the nations of the world...which would mean any one of us could be a descendant of Abraham and therefore of the chosen people. Do people forget about that bit or am I missing something?

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

It's interesting the way people refer to The them as the Chosen People.

Where the Israelites not all the chosen people that where brought out of Egypt, of which were split into 12 tribes according to the scriptures of which the current Jews in Israel consist of only 2 of the tribes.

The rest of the 10 tribes were dispersed among the nations of the world...which would mean any one of us could be a descendant of Abraham and therefore of the chosen people. Do people forget about that bit or am I missing something?

People in general don't refer to them as The Chosen People. They refer to themselves as that.

Obviously Christians wouldn't, since they totally rejected the idea, and believe that all of us are God's chosen people.

The Jewish idea of a "Chosen People" was what made them draw up all their dietary and other laws. They were afraid of their nation being diluted by non-Jews, or by Jews who were not committed to the community, so they developed very insular and limiting rules which you had to follow to be Jewish. Their relationship with God was a communal one; in the scripture, when God was angry, he didn't differentiate, but punished all.

Christian theology developed a more personal, individual relationship with God, rather than a tribal one, so the idea of any people being "Chosen" fell by the wayside.

It's largely because of the laws and the practices that Jews have survived intact as a distinctive group to the present day.

I don't think you are correct that the current Jews in Israel are only belonging to two tribes; but remember that in any case, there are Jews in many other places as well.

Terrlock

katydid wrote: »

I don't think you are correct that the current Jews in Israel are only belonging to two tribes; but remember that in any case, there are Jews in many other places as well.

It's worth a good bible study. I did one only recently on the topic and sure enough scriptures do point to 10 of the 12 tribes being dispersed among the nations of the world and have yet to return to the land.

I haven't yet completed this study but it's quite interesting.


I agree with you that Christianity is about attaining your own personal relation ship with the Lord.

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

It's worth a good bible study. I did one only recently on the topic and sure enough scriptures do point to 10 of the 12 tribes being dispersed among the nations of the world and have yet to return to the land.

I haven't yet completed this study but it's quite interesting.

Well, I was thinking more of actual historical sources rather than the Bible. It's not a historical document...

Terrlock

katydid wrote: »

Well, I was thinking more of actual historical sources rather than the Bible. It's not a historical document...

As a Christian my point of view is that the bible is the inspired word of God.

It is full of historical events, places and names.

I would consider it a very valid source of history.

However even if it's not, my original argument is still Valid as the Jewish religion would follow on from the Torah, which is part of the old testament of the bible.

Thus the old testament or Torah talks about the 12 tribes, 2 of which are the current Jews in Israel while 10 have been spread out among the nations.

So according to the Torah we may all be descendants of Abraham.

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

As a Christian my point of view is that the bible is the inspired word of God.

It is full of historical events, places and names.

I would consider it a very valid source of history.

However even if it's not, my original argument is still Valid as the Jewish religion would follow on from the Torah, which is part of the old testament of the bible.

Thus the old testament or Torah talks about the 12 tribes, 2 of which are the current Jews in Israel while 10 have been spread out among the nations.

So according to the Torah we may all be descendants of Abraham.

Your belief that the Bible is the valid word of God doesn't mean it's a valid historical document. Belief and fact are two different things. SOME elements of the bible are valid historically, but some of it is simply myth or exaggerations.

Old or New Testament, I still don't know where you're getting this thing about there only being two of the original tribes in Israel now. No part of the Bible says anything about Israel today.

Terrlock

katydid wrote: »

Your belief that the Bible is the valid word of God doesn't mean it's a valid historical document. Belief and fact are two different things. SOME elements of the bible are valid historically, but some of it is simply myth or exaggerations.

Old or New Testament, I still don't know where you're getting this thing about there only being two of the original tribes in Israel now. No part of the Bible says anything about Israel today.

Let's keep the historical accuracy of the bible for another thread.

Can we both agree that the Jews follow the Torah, books in the Old Testament. And this thread is about the Jewish religion which comes from the Torah.

The below is purely coming from a Study of the Old Testament

Here is a few Common Myths people have about the Torah in accordance to the Scriptures.

1. The Jewish people were the 'Chosen People' in the Old Testament.

2. The Torah and the Law was given to the Jews

3. The Passover that Jesus and the Disciples Kept along with the other Feast Days of the bible were 'Jewish Feast Days'

These are not true.

There were 12 tribes of Israelite s at the Base of Mount Sinai

Only 1 of these tribes are actually Jewish.

This begs the question where are all the other ones?

You can look up the names of the 12 tribes yourself.

Under Kind David, until Solomon all 12 tribes where in Israel.

However Solomon blew it with the Lord as he worshiped false idols and Gods along side worshiping God. Something many Christians still do today.

This Angered the Lord so he broke up the Kingdom as we see in 1 kings 11:31 -

Then he said to Jeroboam, "Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you ten tribes.

So the 10 tribes in the North were called the "House of Israel" and the 2 tribes in the south were called the "House Of Judah"

In 722 BC the tribes in the North "House of Israel" were taken captive by the King of Assyria.

In 586 BC "The house of Judah" was taken into captivity into Babylon for 70 years.


After 70 years the house of Judah was allowed to come back to Israel

However the Northern Tribe, the house of Israel never came back as they assimilated into the nations and pushed into that all known corners of the earth.


The only reason there is Jews today was the southern kingdom came back.


However this means that any one of us could be descendants of the tribes of Israel and the Torah or so called Jewish religion is every bit as valid for us as it is for them.

This in no way detracts from Christians who believe and follow Jesus.

However to understand the new testament we must study and understand also the old testament for what it is.

I have greatly summarized all this, it requires a good bible study.

katydid

Terrlock wrote: »

Let's keep the historical accuracy of the bible for another thread.

Can we both agree that the Jews follow the Torah, books in the Old Testament. And this thread is about the Jewish religion which comes from the Torah.

The below is purely coming from a Study of the Old Testament

Here is a few Common Myths people have about the Torah in accordance to the Scriptures.

1. The Jewish people were the 'Chosen People' in the Old Testament.

2. The Torah and the Law was given to the Jews

3. The Passover that Jesus and the Disciples Kept along with the other Feast Days of the bible were 'Jewish Feast Days'

These are not true.

There were 12 tribes of Israelite s at the Base of Mount Sinai

Only 1 of these tribes are actually Jewish.

This begs the question where are all the other ones?

You can look up the names of the 12 tribes yourself.

Under Kind David, until Solomon all 12 tribes where in Israel.

However Solomon blew it with the Lord as he worshiped false idols and Gods along side worshiping God. Something many Christians still do today.

This Angered the Lord so he broke up the Kingdom as we see in 1 kings 11:31 -

Then he said to Jeroboam, "Take ten pieces for yourself, for this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'See, I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you ten tribes.

So the 10 tribes in the North were called the "House of Israel" and the 2 tribes in the south were called the "House Of Judah"

In 722 BC the tribes in the North "House of Israel" were taken captive by the King of Assyria.

In 586 BC "The house of Judah" was taken into captivity into Babylon for 70 years.


After 70 years the house of Judah was allowed to come back to Israel

However the Northern Tribe, the house of Israel never came back as they assimilated into the nations and pushed into that all known corners of the earth.


The only reason there is Jews today was the southern kingdom came back.


However this means that any one of us could be descendants of the tribes of Israel and the Torah or so called Jewish religion is every bit as valid for us as it is for them.

This in no way detracts from Christians who believe and follow Jesus.

However to understand the new testament we must study and understand also the old testament for what it is.

I have greatly summarized all this, it requires a good bible study.

Well, it was you who claimed that the Bible was an accurate historical document, in the context of your claims about the tribes of Israel...

How can you claim now that it is a myth that the Jewish people were the Chosen People in the Torah/Old Testament? They were, according to their scripture. So it's not a myth.

Of course one can argue whether or not the Torah and Laws were given to the Jews, but only if one argues the historicity of the Bible, and you don't want to do that. Many would see it as a myth, but others believe it literally.

It's certainly not a myth that the Passover etc. were Jewish Feast Days. It is a fact.

And I've no idea what any of that has to do with the issue of the Tribes of Israel.

I know all about the vicissitudes of the political divisions between the Jewish people over the years: I fail to see what that has to do with them being Jewish or not. They were all Jews, they just had different political affiliations at different times. The Northern Kingdom Jews at one time seemed to be moving towards abandoning Judaism and its practices, and indeed some of them did and became the Samaritans, but most of the Jews from the Northern kingdom came back into the fold, after warnings by prophets such as Ezekiel. Judaism has always managed to hold its people together, despite political and other upheavals, by the very nature of its rigid laws and customs.

masculinist

I'm glad I started this thread. You guys know a lot more than me. Another question which interests me is this :

If I went through all the necessary steps and converted to Judaism and hence became Jewish , would I then be entitled to emigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen ?

Peregrinus

masculinist wrote: »

I'm glad I started this thread. You guys know a lot more than me. Another question which interests me is this :

If I went through all the necessary steps and converted to Judaism and hence became Jewish , would I then be entitled to emigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen ?

Yes. (I think you may need to convert on terms recognised by Orthodox rabbis, as opposed to rabbis of any othe tradition, but I could be wrong about that.)

Although conversion, etc, might not be necessary. Israel also has more conventional emigration options also, and they are likely to be easier than conversion to Judaism, which is a rigorous, demanding and time-consuming process.

Peregrinus

masculinist wrote: »

but what do they think God wants of non Jews ? Is there any theological view of this ? Does chosen people mean they are the ''elect'' and everyone else is ''the damned'' ? The damned and the elect Calvinist style ?

Yes, there are theological positions within Judaism about this. Couple of relevant points:

First, Judaism isn't really about being saved or damned. The afterlife is not a major preoccupation in Judaism - in fact, until comparatively late in the piece, Judaism had no concept of an afterlife at all. The point for Jews of observing the Law is not really to attain heaven, or anything of the kind. Even today, it's possible to be Jewish - observant, religious Jewish - and not believe in an afterlife.

Secondly, whatever about an afterlife in general, Judaism has little or nothing to say about an afterlife for non-Jews. They don't reckon it's their business to tell non-Jews what to do, and why would the Hebrew Scriptures, given to the Jewish people, have much to say about what non-Jews should be doing, or what destiny awaits them? What would be the point of addressing such matters in the Hebrew scriptures?

But, having said all that, there are some pointers. The Law of Moses is given, obviously, to Moses, and it's for the Jewish people. Jews don't eat pork because the Law forbids it, but they have absolutely no issues with non-Jews eating pork, because the Law is not addressed to them.

But there are laws that come before the Law of Moses. In particular, there's a set of moral precepts revealed in scripture up to the time of Noah - the Noahide commandments - are taken to apply to everybody, Jews and non-Jews alike. In the Genesis story Noah is, of course, the father of all humans who come after the flood, and it's many generations later that Abraham comes along. The Jews are the descendants of Abraham, but we are all the descendants of Noah, and the Noahide commandments are considered to be addressed to all of humanity.

While there are, I think, 613 distinct commandments in the Law of Moses, fortunately for us non-Jews there are only seven Noahide commandments. As far as the Jews are concerned, what God expects of us non-Jews is:

1. No idolatry.
2. No murder.
3. No theft.
4. No sexual immorality. (But there are few specifics as to what is, and what is not, immoral in the field of sexual expression; non-Jews are left to work that out for themselves.)
5. No blasphemy.
6. Do not eat flesh cut from a living animal.
7. You need to establish courts to enforce the law and resolve disputes.

(The last one is interesting because it implies that virtue has to be collective as well as individual. You can't establish courts of law on your own; that has to be a societal decision.)

In the Jewish tradition, non-Jews who observe these commandments are "righteous Gentiles". As I say, Judaism isn't overly preoccupied with the question of heavenly rewards, but it's generally taken that a righteous Gentile is as pleasing to God as an observant Jew. Whatever rewards are going, he can expect to share in.

The bottom line, then, is that what Jews know God to expect of them is considerably more extensive than what they know God to expect of non-Jews. Being a good Jew is considerably more demanding than being a good Gentile. Being the "chosen people", then, is something of a mixed blessing.