That Letter

The_Valeyard

So it seems that ECB letter has been leaked. People are obviously very upset with its content and tone.


Kind of feel sorry for the position that Lenihan was in.

But...

‘Take a bailout or we’ll cut emergency funding’ (Jean-Claude Trichet )


How does AH feel about this?

Personally im bit miffed over the whole thing, it does seem very threatening and could be interpreted as blackmail, but did we have any other choice looking at the mess we (collective 'we') got into?



Link:

http://www.thejournal.ie/trichet-letter-sent-to-lenihan-released-1764945-Nov2014/

Hannibal Smith

Strange how the letter vwas leaked right in the middle of the water charges protests. Seems to me like a political stunt to shine light on where it all started and take some of the blame off Kenny.

Only thing is...The past is the past. He said he could get us all through it, would negotiate a better deal for us...and yet here we are debacle after debacle as he fumbles through yet another storm without showing any form of leadership whatsoever.

Shenshen

I'm no economist, but what I fail to understand is how it could be called blackmail if a bank (ECB) asks a debtor (Ireland) to either take a structured bailout or it will stop supplying emergency funding?

Can someone explain that to me, please?

As far as I can see, Ireland was getting money from the ECB one way or the other anyway?

VinLieger

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Strange how the letter vwas leaked right in the middle of the water charges protests. Seems to me like a political stunt to shine light on where it all started and take some of the blame off Kenny.

Only thing is...The past is the past. He said he could get us all through it, would negotiate a better deal for us...and yet here we are debacle after debacle as he fumbles through yet another storm without showing any form of leadership whatsoever.

Jesus can people take off their tinfoil hat's? The ECB had control over the letter and couldn't give two fvcks about our internal politics and water charges ****e

Valetta

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Strange how the letter vwas leaked right in the middle of the water charges protests. Seems to me like a political stunt to shine light on where it all started and take some of the blame off Kenny.

Only thing is...The past is the past. He said he could get us all through it, would negotiate a better deal for us...and yet here we are debacle after debacle as he fumbles through yet another storm without showing any form of leadership whatsoever.

You do know who leaked the letter?

BoJack Horseman

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Seems to me like a political stunt to shine light on where it all started and take some of the blame off Kenny.

Did the government release the letter?
Or.... Try very hard to not do so.

Conspiracy!

He said he could get us all through it, would negotiate a better deal for us.

http://m.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0208/366775-the-anglo-irish-promissory-note-deal/

This was as good as it got.
It will save a tonne of cash, but its still a sh*t sandwich.

Grayson

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm no economist, but what I fail to understand is how it could be called balckmail if a bank (ECB) asks a debtor (Ireland) to either take a structured bailout or it will stop supplying emergency funding?

Can someone explain that to me, please?

As far as I can see, Ireland was getting money from the ECB one way or the other anyway?

I know. It was default or take the loan. Even with the conditions it was better than having the country and all the banks collapse.

ThisRegard

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

Strange how the letter vwas leaked right in the middle of the water charges protests. Seems to me like a political stunt to shine light on where it all started and take some of the blame off Kenny.

Seriously though. All members of the European Association of Journalists, along with the ECB, conspired with each other to help out the current Irish government ?!?

I don't think too many people will be surprised with the contents of the letter anyway.

valoren

You will eventually get a letter like that when you stupidly guarantee the liabilities and not the deposits of Ireland's "liquid" banking institutions.

When you can plainly see the burning pyre of cash that was Anglo, then you just can't be nicey-nicey about the situation.

Interpret it as a threat if you will, but it was simply Trichet giving a final ultimatum to allow the ECB to take the reins.

VinLieger

Grayson wrote: »

I know. It was default or take the loan. Even with the conditions it was better than having the country and all the banks collapse.

I think the problem is we were forced to make a decision without any choice in the matter mainly to hold up the EU banking system and when we went to ask for better term's a couple of year's later were told to get lost even after having done everything that was asked of us.

IF we hadn't done it yes we probably wouldn't be on the way out of it yet BUT also the EU would be a lot worse of than it currently is as we wouldn't be propping up their banking system by taking all of the debt.

Hannibal Smith

VinLieger wrote: »

Jesus can people take off their tinfoil hat's? The ECB had control over the letter and couldn't give two fvcks about our internal politics and water charges ****e

I never said they did.

VinLieger

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I never said they did.

You implied it was a political stunt, who by then if the ECB had control of the letter?

Hannibal Smith

ThisRegard wrote: »

Seriously though. All members of the European Association of Journalists, along with the ECB, conspired with each other to help out the current Irish government ?!?

I don't think too many people will be surprised with the contents of the letter anyway.

I don't know who helped who. But the timing of it stinks and no its contents aren't a surprise.

ThisRegard

I'll go back to the tinfoil post previously.

Buona Fortuna

ECB - great bunch o' lads

vicwatson

If anything these threatening letters make me even more deteremined not to pay Water Taxes, the Irish Gov and the EU can go take a run and jump

Caliden

Valetta wrote: »

You do know who leaked the letter?

And who does Ireland owe money to? Would the collapse of IW threaten the rate at which money could be repaid?

BoJack Horseman

Caliden wrote: »

And who does Ireland owe money to? Would the collapse of IW threaten the rate at which money could be repaid?

No.

Repayment schedules of bonds are not related in any way.

The NTMA manage that.
After a bond auction this week, they said they hope to have all the IMF debt repaid & rolled into new bonds by early next year.

The_Captain

VinLieger wrote: »

Jesus can people take off their tinfoil hat's? The ECB had control over the letter and couldn't give two fvcks about our internal politics and water charges ****e

The Department of Finance also had control over the letter since it was, you know, sent to them.
And Michael Noonan has acknowledged previously that he had access to the letters sent by the ECB.

Duck Soup

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm no economist, but what I fail to understand is how it could be called blackmail if a bank (ECB) asks a debtor (Ireland) to either take a structured bailout or it will stop supplying emergency funding?

Can someone explain that to me, please?

As far as I can see, Ireland was getting money from the ECB one way or the other anyway?

The bank (ECB) didn't ask a debtor (the Irish government) to take a loan to repay its debt - in 2007, the Irish government actually ran a budget surplus - it required that the Irish government take on all the debt of private (Irish) banks to repay the private foreign (predominantly German, UK and French) lenders.

Effectively, if the loans were defaulted upon, it would blow a hole in the banking system from where the loans originated.

The Irish government could have chosen not to take the money, thereby calling the ECBs bluff to make the state insolvent, but also effectively to bring the euro itself crashing down. The remains of the Irish banks would have been picked over by more sane and solvent foreign competitors and the likes of a "Santander AIB" would have sprung up in the high street.

But yeah, it was blackmail. "Take on the debt of all your private banks or we'll render you insolvent." All the Irish government had to do was say "Be my guest" knowing - as everyone did at the time - that if that happened, the euro currency itself would be dead in the water within a week.

But the Irish government blinked first.

Little CuChulainn

Is this not like your bank calling and telling you to take out an actual loan because they are not longer funding your increasing overdraft?

Streetwalker

Should have told the ECB to go f uc k themselves.

BoJack Horseman

Streetwalker wrote: »

Should have told the ECB to go f uc k themselves.

And then what...........?

sbsquarepants

We should have had the cop on to say we will not default on our countries debts but those of you who have privately lent money to private companies may handle your problems privately, nothing to do with us. End of.
Anglo, Aib, Bank of Ireland et al are no more "Ireland" than O'Briens sandwich bars or dunnes stores. Gambling involves risk. You lost, tough shít.

SEPT 23 1989

dont forget the damage Obamas goons did to us as well

The_Captain

sbsquarepants wrote: »

We should have had the cop on to say we will not default on our countries debts but those of you who have privately lent money to private companies may handle your problems privately, nothing to do with us. End of.
Anglo, Aib, Bank of Ireland et al are no more "Ireland" than O'Briens sandwich bars or dunnes stores. Gambling involves risk. You lost, tough shít.

The problem with that was that if the regualr banks went bust, regular folk aren't getting money on payday, all loans and credit would stop, mortgages and outstanding loans would be called in by the bank to keep themselves solvent and the country would grind to a halt.

You're looking at an event occurring over a very short period of time where all the experts in the matter had massive vested self-interest.
Brian Lenihan goes looking for advice on what to do, no banker is going to turn around and say let the banks fail, we'll take the hit on the chin.

Earthhorse

I don't think the issue was ever with taking a bailout of some kind; it was the blanket guarantee provided by the bailout that simply meant we got the worst possible deal going. We needed financial assistance, no doubt, we didn't need to guarantee all debt, no questions asked.

VinLieger

The_Captain wrote: »

The Department of Finance also had control over the letter since it was, you know, sent to them.
And Michael Noonan has acknowledged previously that he had access to the letters sent by the ECB.

Actually no they didn't and you would know that if you had been keeping track of this story over the past month instead of just reading one article on it today

The_Captain

VinLieger wrote: »

Actually no they didn't and you would know that if you had been keeping track of this story over the past month instead of just reading one article on it today

Funny then that both the Department of Finance and Michael Noonan are claiming to have access to the letters but are unwilling to release them

VinLieger

The_Captain wrote: »

Funny then that both the Department of Finance and Michael Noonan are claiming to have access to the letters but are unwilling to release them

Control and access are two different things but go on and continue with your conspiracy theories.

Shenshen

Duck Soup wrote: »

The bank (ECB) didn't ask a debtor (the Irish government) to take a loan to repay its debt - in 2007, the Irish government actually ran a budget surplus - it required that the Irish government take on all the debt of private (Irish) banks to repay the private foreign (predominantly German, UK and French) lenders.

Effectively, if the loans were defaulted upon, it would blow a hole in the banking system from where the loans originated.

The Irish government could have chosen not to take the money, thereby calling the ECBs bluff to make the state insolvent, but also effectively to bring the euro itself crashing down. The remains of the Irish banks would have been picked over by more sane and solvent foreign competitors and the likes of a "Santander AIB" would have sprung up in the high street.

But yeah, it was blackmail. "Take on the debt of all your private banks or we'll render you insolvent." All the Irish government had to do was say "Be my guest" knowing - as everyone did at the time - that if that happened, the euro currency itself would be dead in the water within a week.

But the Irish government blinked first.

So it was a choice between a bailout or a bankrupt nation.
Still hardly blackmail - people loaning money to others usually get to attach conditions to the loans.

Drumpot

I feel mixed about this but it does confirm a lot of things.

-Our EU partners are not friends, they are business acquaintances.

-We couldn't simply "burn the bondholders" (I hate that phrase , its f**king stupid and quite innacurate but people know what it means so . .) and all the brave talk from the opposition around the time of the bailout was horsesh*t. Had we not followed pretty much all instructions from the EU they would of cut us off.

-As much as FF were a complete and utter shower of you know what, they didn't really have much choice once the proverbial hit the fan

Its funny that in hindsight, one can look back at what happened and see that while FF were very much at the forefront of causing the problem, there were loads of other factors that were beyond our control.

The lesson to be learned, that Irish people never learn and will probobley never learn, is that the "saviour" government voted in were still voted in by the same people who voted in FF in the first place. People didn't change the kind of politician or party that got us into the mess, they simply went across the road and voted for the exact same things . .

5 years on and FF popularity is certainly back up there. I don't find it surprising at all... I don't think its unique to Ireland by any stretch of the imagination, but the reason there is no change in Irish politics is because irish people couldn't be arsed pushing for political reform. the only thing Irish people will march for is when something directly hits their pocket personally..

until or unless we cop on and change the culture as a nation we will remain stuck with the same talentless, visionless shower of mediocre teachers wasting the limited resources we have . . As obi One Kenobi said in revenge of the sith (and I constantly use on my children with hilarious tantrums afterwards), "You have done that yourself " . We get everything we deserve from our politicians.

The_Captain

VinLieger wrote: »

Control and access are two different things but go on and continue with your conspiracy theories.

And what conspiracy theory would that be then? Or are you just making things up

Giblet

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And then what...........?

Bag o' cans

Drumpot

Shenshen wrote: »

So it was a choice between a bailout or a bankrupt nation.
Still hardly blackmail - people loaning money to others usually get to attach conditions to the loans.

Yeh, I am sort of with you on this but only by a technicality.

Legally you are correct by the laws of the financial services ethos , but my issue is that the EU subsequently put lessor sanctions on bigger countries (like Spain). So their demands that Ireland suck it up and take its medicine wasn't the same criteria demanded of other countries.. .

The Irish people should never of had to pump billions into its financial system, but it was just as much in the interest of the EU that our banks remained open as it was for Ireland.

And it was a form of blackmail.. .Since pretty much anything can be wrangled out on technicalities in the corrupt capitalist system, technically Ireland was fair game and this would be considered a reasonable request. Why werent other countries like Spain bullied in the same fashion.

Just because something is a common practise (eg banks using legal muscle/motivations to get what they want), it shouldn't be exempt from being lambasted for what it is. . A financial system held Ireland to randsom and gave us two horrible choices. If that's not blackmail I don't know what is.

VinLieger

The_Captain wrote: »

And what conspiracy theory would that be then? Or are you just making things up

The conspiracy theory anti-IW people have that it was released to divert attention from that fiasco.

The ECB had legal control over the letter as all correspondence between them and the dept of finance is confidential unless the ECB grant permission to waive that confidentiality.

The_Valeyard

VinLieger wrote: »

The conspiracy theory anti-IW people have that it was released to divert attention from that fiasco.

The ECB had legal control over the letter as all correspondence between them and the dept of finance is confidential unless the ECB grant permission to waive that confidentiality.

Well at least the letter are out and we can see what was said.

The_Captain

VinLieger wrote: »

The conspiracy theory anti-IW people have that it was released to divert attention from that fiasco.

The ECB had legal control over the letter as all correspondence between them and the dept of finance is confidential unless the ECB grant permission to waive that confidentiality.

You show me where I've said anything like that then :rolleyes:

Your imagination is running wild here

VinLieger

The_Captain wrote: »

You show me where I've said anything like that then :rolleyes:

Your imagination is running wild here

Did I mention you specifically as saying anything of the sort? Unless you identify yourself as a "conspiracy theory anti-IW person"?

The_Captain

VinLieger wrote: »

Did I mention you specifically as saying anything of the sort?

Well, yes you did

VinLieger wrote: »

Control and access are two different things but go on and continue with your conspiracy theories.

The_Captain wrote: »

And what conspiracy theory would that be then? Or are you just making things up

VinLieger wrote: »

The conspiracy theory anti-IW people have that it was released to divert attention from that fiasco

VinLieger

The_Captain wrote: »

Well, yes you did

Fair enough I can admit when im wrong but then why did you respond to my very first post about conspiracy theory's in what read's very like an effort to defend them?

VinLieger wrote: »

Jesus can people take off their tinfoil hat's? The ECB had control over the letter and couldn't give two fvcks about our internal politics and water charges ****e

The_Captain wrote: »

The Department of Finance also had control over the letter since it was, you know, sent to them.
And Michael Noonan has acknowledged previously that he had access to the letters sent by the ECB.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92923974&postcount=19

dlouth15

Earthhorse wrote: »

I don't think the issue was ever with taking a bailout of some kind; it was the blanket guarantee provided by the bailout that simply meant we got the worst possible deal going. We needed financial assistance, no doubt, we didn't need to guarantee all debt, no questions asked.

I don't think there's any doubt that a bailout would at some point have been necessary. What Trichet did, however, was make it clear that Ireland had no bargaining power in the bailout negotiations when he expressed a willingness to cut off emergency liquidity to the banks and thereby shut them down immediately. If you exclude Trichet from the equation, it would have been in Europe's interest to cut a decent deal for Ireland in the talks. As it was, with Ireland over a barrel, there was no need for that and we got the deal that we got. Ireland basically had to agree to everything.