Would you employ someone who was let go for gross mis-conduct

allibastor

Just a question to you all,
Would you employ someone who openly admitted she was left go for gross mis-conduct.

The offence was trying to start a company in a different sector while being employed buy her previous company. Conflict of interest was sighted as the dismissal reason.

Just curious is someone openly tells you is it still a bad thing

percy212

Was she stealing customers or IP?

If not then all she is guilty of is having balls.

allibastor

What is IP?


If its intellectual property, then yes I think would be the answer as she said the business was a similar model to the one she worked for, but with a different target and different geographical market.
I would take a guess and say if she wasn't working in the company previously she would not have had the idea.

MarkR

Was she using company time / resources to do this? I presume the start up failed to take off?

porsche959

Could be seen as a positive, i.e., showing strong entrepreneurial drive.

Drawback is she could do it again.

allibastor

I am unsure of this, I would imagine so though such as using her lunch break or phone or what not.

Don't really know is the honest answer.

Mr. Loverman

Sounds like a risk. I'd pass.

allibastor

I just don't know is the answer to that, She comes across as very good ad TBH is the lead person so far for the role.

I am just concerned over it, but then I think that if you are let go once for GM does it dog you for the rest of your life.

cerberos

Sounds like a risk. I'd pass.

+ 1

percy212

Tricky one. She saw an opportunity at her last job, and though it wasn't in direct competition with her employer, they treated it as such. Did she approach them with the idea first? That would point towards what you are dealing with....

allibastor

percy212 wrote: »

Tricky one. She saw an opportunity at her last job, and though it wasn't in direct competition with her employer, they treated it as such. Did she approach them with the idea first? That would point towards what you are dealing with....

No, I did ask that and she said if she didn't they would have moved into the market or at least made shakes on it.

I just don't know TBH, I can see it from both sides that the company saw what she was doing as wrong, but possibly also competition.

Nody

While there's risk if you feel she jives with the role and the team as a fit and your business would be hard to pull the same idea I'd go for it to be honest. Yes it's a risk but it's a calculated risk that can be managed.

I was told the same by HR when I insisted on getting an arabic speaking person for a role that they had rejected as a potential candidate that would work with Bahrain etc. rather than only English speaking one they were pushing. Not because I needed him to speak Arabic on a daily basis but it would help from a cultural perspective and in case we get a new person down there who's not comfortable in English down the line. Worked our brilliantly even if he was not the strongest person for the role.

So tldr, go with your gut feeling. If she's the best candidate and she can't easily do the same thing again to your current company go for it. Yes it's a risk she may try to pull a quick one on you but if every decision is to be the safe option only you'll lose a lot of the really strong candidates; heck in US it's considered a good thing to have at least one personal bankruptcy as an entrepreneur because you stood back up, dusted yourself off and got back in swinging again

allibastor

Nody wrote: »

While there's risk if you feel she jives with the role and the team as a fit and your business would be hard to pull the same idea I'd go for it to be honest. Yes it's a risk but it's a calculated risk that can be managed.

I was told the same by HR when I insisted on getting an arabic speaking person for a role that they had rejected as a potential candidate that would work with Bahrain etc. rather than only English speaking one they were pushing. Not because I needed him to speak Arabic on a daily basis but it would help from a cultural perspective and in case we get a new person down there who's not comfortable in English down the line. Worked our brilliantly even if he was not the strongest person for the role.

So tldr, go with your gut feeling. If she's the best candidate and she can't easily do the same thing again to your current company go for it.

Thanks for that. In one sense yes she is the best and I don't think the issue can be repeated. Also as pointed out before, the business fell flat before it started so maybe this would be something which would make her realise even more the value of working.

smcgiff

How did you find out about the Gross Misconduct?

Was she open about it or was it something you knew already.

I'm leaning towards the 'it shows initiative'. Plus, how likely is she to make that mistake again.

Now, it could be viewed that this was a lack of morals and she may do something else immoral, but it's possible she just saw an opportunity that her existing employer was not currently taking advantage of and went for it.

I'd be inclined NOT to rule her out because of this.

allibastor

smcgiff wrote: »

How did you find out about the Gross Misconduct?

Was she open about it or was it something you knew already.

I'm leaning towards the 'it shows initiative'. Plus, how likely is she to make that mistake again.

Now, it could be viewed that this was a lack of morals and she may do something else immoral, but it's possible she just saw an opportunity that her existing employer was not currently taking advantage of and went for it.

I'd be inclined NOT to rule her out because of this.

She said it in the interview. I had no idea of it but it was one of he first things which came up in the interview and she said it right out.

I do know the company in question also, I know they are VERY hardheaded and will fight with the local dog for its bone sort of thing.

smcgiff

allibastor wrote: »

She said it in the interview. I had no idea of it but it was one of he first things which came up in the interview and she said it right out.

I do know the company in question also, I know they are VERY hardheaded and will fight with the local dog for its bone sort of thing.

Right, that's that sorted. When does she start?

If anything you'll probably hire her at a discount, but don't keep her long at a discount if she's a keeper.

Good luck.

allibastor

Thanks,

But does it not raise more questions then If you hire someone who was let go in this way.

I am just being overly cautious is all.

smcgiff

allibastor wrote: »

Thanks,

But does it not raise more questions then If you hire someone who was let go in this way.

I am just being overly cautious is all.

Well, if you're the one that hires her and she did that exact same thing, it wouldn't look good for you. Hindsight being 20/20.

The plus side, she admitted to it, and while you knew the company could she have gotten references from other companies and kept quiet about it.

How did she discuss it? How did she describe the situation and how she justified her action and whether she understood it to be wrong and not to be repeated.

davo10

Talk to her previous employer, their side of the story may be different. If she was sacked for gross misconduct and didn't fight the sacking, then chances are she seriously breached her contract. I wouldn't hire her, she could have chosen to leave her previous job before starting up her own, instead she used their IP while they were still paying her to set up a rival company. To much baggage for me I'm afraid.

BizzyC

I'd avoid.

She obviously has no qualms in breaching ethical rules and codes of conduct.
If you hire her she could do the exact same thing again.

_Kaiser_

Bottom line is that it's a risk, and unless she has something unique, there's plenty of others out there without such complications.

Maybe call her and the number 2 candidate back in for a follow-up and decide then.

percy212

I think its strange that she didn't try to spin her idea into her own little empire at her old workplace. Perhaps though that wasn't possible given your description of the old employer. She is being very honest regarding the dismissal, which I actually find odd, as it would be easier to just cover the whole thing up with some lie or other...hmmm I think you may have a crazy pants on your hands.

skallywag

davo10 wrote: »

Talk to her previous employer, their side of the story may be different.

This is certainly what I would also do.

daheff

I may not be picking this up right so please put me straight if i havent

Girl you've interviewed was fired from last job for gross misconduct. Gross misconduct in this case was starting her own business to work in a sector her current employer wasnt working in? She used company IP to sell her product(s /services)?


If shes as good as you think she is hire her...but make sure her contract has a clause saying that she will incurr financial penalties if she uses your IP and that she is prohibited from joining or setting up a business in competition with yours.

One question I'd ask is why isnt she still working in the business she set up? If she is then you have to ask how committed she would be to working for you

allibastor

The long and short of it is, she set up a company that more or less rivaled her last company. Did it on thier time.

She said she told me during interview just to let me know the full facts as it may come out later so Thought being honest was Best.

Her company failed as her financial backing went away.

Cushie Butterfield

It's a tough call either way.

On one hand she made a foolish error in judgement. She isn't the first person to make a mistake nor will she be the last. She paid dearly for this by losing her previous position. She has been up front about it. It's up to you to decide whether or not she's likely to do the same or similar if you employed her, or whether you feel she now fully realises how foolish she was & if you feel she's likely to be an asset to your business.

On the other hand, her previous gross misconduct might be an indication that she is just not to be trusted. Would you constantly be concerned about what she is up to or planning to get up to? Do you feel she's likely to be a liability to your business?

Considering she's a complete stranger I think that the cons outweigh the pro's in this situation. I'm all for giving people second chances but the success & survival of your business must come before any human feelings. It would be a different matter if she was personally know by you or to someone that you know & trust who would vouch for her, or if her previous gross misconduct was in a completely different & unrelated business field


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Gongoozler

I'd also be very suspicious of the fact that she told you. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I would get in contact with her former employer and get their side.

allibastor

Gongoozler wrote: »

I'd also be very suspicious of the fact that she told you. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. I would get in contact with her former employer and get their side.

Hi,

In what way would this be suspicious, if she got the job on deception she can be let go at any stage later on? I would imagine that it is in her interest to let me know right away.

I called the other company, she was indeed let go for using their time and unused contacts to try her own thing. the company had thought of her idea but felt it was a non-runner in the long term, a thought which I now imagine runs through this ladies head also.

The company did say her work up to this was very good, but that they felt she was a liability to them and un-trust worthy.

Gongoozler

I meant that people who lie and come out with the truth usually tell the minimum amount necessary. But you have in the rest of your last post confirmed with the former employer that that is what happened.

davo10

allibastor wrote: »

Hi,


The company did say her work up to this was very good, but that they felt she was a liability to them and un-trust worthy.

There's your answer.

percy212

Well if you like her and you feel like giving her a second chance, fair play to you. She did cross her old employer quite badly, but perhaps she has learned a hard lesson. You will have to go with your gut...

percy212

I am surprised the company gave so much info out about the situation and about her character. I would only ever confirm date and position, and that she left.

davo10

percy212 wrote: »

I am surprised the company gave so much info out about the situation and about her character. I would only ever confirm date and position, and that she left.

She was dismissed and by the sounds of things, did not dispute the dismissal. There would be no reason for the previous employer to not inform the OP.

percy212

I suppose, apart from looking like idiots because they didn't see what was going on under their noses.

davo10 wrote: »

She was dismissed and by the sounds of things, did not dispute the dismissal. There would be no reason for the previous employer to not inform the OP.

davo10

percy212 wrote: »

I suppose, apart from looking like idiots because they didn't see what was going on under their noses.

Why on earth would they? And if they did feel that way, why not make sure that others don't fall for the same stunt? I really don't get your post.

percy212

I can see that.

allibastor

Just to follow on,

I have decided to offer the job to this person. While I do have small reservations I am also of the opinion that if fired once for GM she may never get a job again.

Taking on-board all comments here, plus the fact she did openly tell me about this during interview and the fact the previous company, while understandably hostile towards her did say that the work she did was good but couldn't trust her.

I have made a special note in the contract that if she does use of IP or is found again doing more of the same she can also be let go, but that any work she had done will be ours by default.

gandalf

I think the fact she was up front with you speaks volumes. Hopefully she is intelligent enough to learn from her mistakes and appreciates the opportunity that you have given her. As you can see from the replies here many wouldn't have been as generous, I assume she realises this as well.

Good luck I hope she becomes an asset to your business and your risk is rewarded.

allibastor

gandalf wrote: »

I think the fact she was up front with you speaks volumes. Hopefully she is intelligent enough to learn from her mistakes and appreciates the opportunity that you have given her. As you can see from the replies here many wouldn't have been as generous, I assume she realises this as well.

Good luck I hope she becomes an asset to your business and your risk is rewarded.

Hi.
Thanks for that, I suppose I am of the mind that if no one tried a new start up we would get no-where.

Hopefully she has learned from the past and wont be in too much of a hurry to get things off the ground again, or if she does she can do it on her own time.

An Ri rua

I know we're on a semi-anonymous forum. But I would just caution you if that's ok, in a friendly way (and ps I really admire your decency in hiring this person) not to mix your posts in such a way that they ever latch on to your identity. If so, it could cause you headaches in the future. I know, from studying competitive intelligence, how easy it is for this to happen.

I think that, subject to a good probation, you've probably made a good move longterm. But, as an employee who has used employment rights mechanisms, it would not hurt to get very au fait with www.employmentrightsireland.com Good paperwork and HR procedures make for excellent employers and employees.


edit:- I am naturally paranoid about social media, due to practicing competitive intelligence and using fake accounts online for years.

allibastor

An Ri rua wrote: »

I know we're on a semi-anonymous forum. But I would just caution you if that's ok, in a friendly way (and ps I really admire your decency in hiring this person) not to mix your posts in such a way that they ever latch on to your identity. If so, it could cause you headaches in the future. I know, from studying competitive intelligence, how easy it is for this to happen.

I think that, subject to a good probation, you've probably made a good move longterm. But, as an employee who has used employment rights mechanisms, it would not hurt to get very au fait with www.employmentrightsireland.com Good paperwork and HR procedures make for excellent employers and employees.


edit:- I am naturally paranoid about social media, due to practicing competitive intelligence and using fake accounts online for years.

Thanks for the heads up on this.

Only time will tell on the success or failure of this role, but unfortunately this is the case for every hire that any company makes.

I understand being paranoid about market and strategic intelligence, From having being on the opposite side of it. Its not my thing to try but I appreciate the candour.

allibastor

allibastor wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on this.

Only time will tell on the success or failure of this role, but unfortunately this is the case for every hire that any company makes.

I understand being paranoid about market and strategic intelligence, From having being on the opposite side of it. Its not my thing to try but I appreciate the candour.

Just to follow on from this post, the Lady in question has been here a few weeks now and is doing extremely well.
I did have the discussion over coffee one day of what happened, Was told she saw a gap in the market that her employer was missing and decided to try and fill it herself. Said it did backfire unfortunately, but she felt she didn't want to stay working for the employer for ever and maybe setting up as a rival was a good option, the boss had done this with her last company also to set up the current company.

In general she is flying it though, great worker.