Gormanston Camp and Bremore Port 2014 update

Morpheus

http://www.meath.ie/CountyCouncil/Publications/PlanningPublications/Laytown-BettystownPlanningPublications/LargeFileDownload,58949,en.pdf

Looks like Gormanston Camp is still in Bremore Ports sights. This would ultimately be a shame. Personally, living in the area, I would hate to see the area go to a major industrial zone like this. I dont see why existing facilities in Dublin, Cork or Waterford cannot better use this investment to upgrade existing facilities. Not to mention the loss of the only marine gunnery site in the country.

Gormanston Camp consists of approximately 226 acres. The camp is currently home to
Gormanston Camp Company and B Company . The Camp is used for
air-ground and air-defence training. The Planning Authority has previously identified a large
parcel of land (85 hectares) at the current Military Camp to the north of the village for
employment uses. The rationale behind this land use zoning objective applying to these lands
previously related to a Government decision on July 1st 2003 that lands at Gormanston would
be amongst state lands released for inclusion in the Sustaining Progress Affordable Housing
Initiative. It was agreed with the Department of Environment to place these lands which were
designated with an employment land use zoning objective in the East Meath Local Area Plan
2005 on the open market with the perspective purchaser having to provide an agreed
quantum of housing on appropriately zoned lands elsewhere in the Greater Dublin Area. The
designation of these lands as part of the Affordable Housing Initiative Scheme has since been
removed by the Government.

Negative_G

Morpheus wrote: »

. Not to mention the loss of the only marine gunnery site in the country.

'Marine gunnery', I presume you mean aerial gunnery.

The navy have their own danger area off the South West coast which interestingly enough appears to be 'permanently deactivated' according to the IAA NOTAMs some months ago.

That being said, Gormonston offers very little capability and has a skeleton staff. I'd be happy to see it go if they money was reinvested directly to the PDF, however, we both know that won't happen.

Morpheus

its used quite a lot for recruit training and for pre exercise drills by the 27 Bn

Courses are run there also

It has excellent facilities for training and often sees helis in doing troop drops / pickups and has use as a fibua training area and a decent range.

it has a gym and is used for fitness tests throughout the year.

im talking about aerial gunnery yes, the PC9s only fire off ben head at gormo. ive seen the aw139 gunnery happen here too. The drop shorts fire the Air defence guns here also.


Im almost 100% sure i have seen parachute training go on here in the past im sure there are more uses made that i dont know about here also.

Frosty McSnowballs

Gormanston is a valuable training site with huge potential and they have more than a "skeleton staff".

They have an internal and external firing range, airfield, multi purpose training area, access to the beach.

A wide variety of training is / was / and can be conducted there. It has potential to hold treble the amount of troops with suitable funding.

It is currently a wasted asset and should be appropriately used as a proper training establishment.

Frosty McSnowballs

Negative_G wrote: »

'That being said, Gormonston offers very little capability and has a skeleton staff. I'd be happy to see it go if they money was reinvested directly to the PDF, however, we both know that won't happen.

The cost of running Gormanston Camp is minimal. The sale of the camp and it's land wouldn't yield that much in relative terms. Even if you injected the money directly into the defence budget, there would be little to show for it.

It is more valuable as a training site than selling it for a tangibly small amount in exchange for minimal kit or resources.

coach23

I trained here in green and currently run a few courses here in blue. has great potential with a bit of investment as a Emergency services training centre.

Morpheus

isnt it one of the largest training areas outside the curragh and the glen / coolmoney?

Negative_G

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

The cost of running Gormanston Camp is minimal. The sale of the camp and it's land wouldn't yield that much in relative terms. Even if you injected the money directly into the defence budget, there would be little to show for it.

It is more valuable as a training site than selling it for a tangibly small amount in exchange for minimal kit or resources.

Relative in terms to what? Minimal in comparison to where?

Don't get me wrong, given all the barrack closures in the last few years I wouldn't like to see it close, because as I've said, there will be zero reinvestment in the DF.

The fact remains that between Gormanston, the DFTC, and the Glen/Kilbride you have three large training areas within an hour of each other. There's nothing that you can do training wise in Gormanston that cannot be done in the other two. It's days as an airfield are gone and will not return, so once again it offers nothing from a aviation perspective. If they were to lose the D1 they can just use the D13 which is located just off the coast also.

Having 'access to the beach' has to be one of the most bizarre justifications I've seen for keeping a barracks/post open.

Morpheus

You cannot do a naval insertion (has been done) or the likes of securing an airfield drills, it has decent accomodation and a decent armoury. its also one of the best training areas available to units NORTH of dublin. kilbride and the glen are further away for them.

Negative_G

Morpheus wrote: »

You cannot do a naval insertion (has been done) or the likes of securing an airfield drills, it has decent accomodation and a decent armoury. its also one of the best training areas available to units NORTH of dublin. kilbride and the glen are further away for them.

Using specific ad-hoc exercises like a 'naval insertion' as an additional reason to justify keeping a facility open is a weak argument in my opinion. There has and is regular Navy/Army exercises ran in Fort Davis on a routine basis.

You do not need a long piece of tarmac to carry out an exercise such as securing an airfield. A relatively flat piece of terrain and some creativity will have the same outcome. Additionally, such exercises are again carried out on a regular basis in the likes of Waterford airport and other locations.

You are correct, Kibride and the Glen are indeed further away for someone from Dundalk for example, so what? The majority of personnel will visit the range once a year, should we keep facilities open just to save the lads an extra 60 mins travelling time? A superficial overview perhaps, but you see my point. Those who'll go on MRE or more prolonged exercises will utilise the Glen/Kilworth anyway so it's a mute point that its closer for some personnel than others.

So far all of the points put forward have been centred around keeping it open for training or courses, all of which can be done in other locations either in Dublin/Dundalk or the DFTC. I am open to correction but I cannot identify one activity that is carried out either on a regular or irregular basis that cannot be performed elsewhere.

Frosty McSnowballs

Negative_G wrote: »

Relative in terms to what? Minimal in comparison to where?

Don't get me wrong, given all the barrack closures in the last few years I wouldn't like to see it close, because as I've said, there will be zero reinvestment in the DF.

The fact remains that between Gormanston, the DFTC, and the Glen/Kilbride you have three large training areas within an hour of each other. There's nothing that you can do training wise in Gormanston that cannot be done in the other two. It's days as an airfield are gone and will not return, so once again it offers nothing from a aviation perspective. If they were to lose the D1 they can just use the D13 which is located just off the coast also.

Having 'access to the beach' has to be one of the most bizarre justifications I've seen for keeping a barracks/post open.

I suspect our opinions differ for various reasons. Can I ask if you are an ex or serving member of the Defence Forces?

My opinions are based on practical and operational experience with Gormanston Camp.

Currently more open range practices are carried out in Gormanston than the DFTC....so there's one thing. My point about having an airfield and access to the beach is for variety in a training environment.

The area of the airfield/beach can be used for a multitude of training reasons. It is possible for cross branch training between army/NS/AC to be conducted in this area.

Tbh, I could go on and on. My basic point is thr despite the fact there are additional training areas in close proximity. Gormanston Camp is a more appropriate training area than Kilbride/GOI for multi purpose training. It has more potential adaptability than some others mentioned . It would be a mistake to sell it.

Negative_G

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I suspect our opinions differ for various reasons. Can I ask if you are an ex or serving member of the Defence Forces?

My opinions are based on practical and operational experience with Gormanston Camp.

Currently more open range practices are carried out in Gormanston than the DFTC....so there's one thing. My point about having an airfield and access to the beach is for variety in a training environment.

The area of the airfield/beach can be used for a multitude of training reasons. It is possible for cross branch training between army/NS/AC to be conducted in this area.

Tbh, I could go on and on. My basic point is thr despite the fact there are additional training areas in close proximity. Gormanston Camp is a more appropriate training area than Kilbride/GOI for multi purpose training. It has more potential adaptability than some others mentioned . It would be a mistake to sell it.

I am neither, I do however know people who serve, both officers and other ranks.

I understand you are a serving member and I respect that and while you may have a more in depth appreciation for its uses it also leaves you susceptible to not looking at it objectively.

As I've already said, I wouldn't like to see it close purely because the DF would see zero benefit from it. However I do not think it would suffer adversely either.

Unfortunately adaptability costs money and the DF budget isn't getting any bigger which means that it will remain in its current state until someone decides to invest heavily or sell it.

I take your point about the beach, however, if somebody wants to bring the recruits for a refreshing saltwater battle PT. A bus/truck can be used to facilitate the task. Similarly, I would suspect if all ranges were utilised in the DFTC the range statistic would change.

I'm not anti-DF by any stretch of the imagination but I do think there is room for streamlining assets, which if done right can benefit everyone.

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree.

LEGEND24

Negative_G wrote: »

I am neither, I do however know people who serve, both officers and other ranks.

Then pipe down if you are neither!! Gormonston has plenty of reasons to stay open as others have stated above before me! IMO it should be the DFTC altogether with proper investment in more accomadation/facilities! 1 mile approx from the main M1 road, just outside of a main city, 30mins or less from the border, about 1mile from the coast, nearest train station is 2miles if needed, perfect for anything you would need for a training depot or army camp in general!

Negative_G

LEGEND24 wrote: »

Then pipe down if you are neither!!

An excellent beginning to your contribution to the topic.

Whether you like it or not, the internet is full of peoples opinions which may not agree with your own, you should learn to accept that or else tone down the 'knee jerk' response. I'm pretty sure the DOD doesn't frequent boards looking for long term strategic advice and if you had bothered to read all of my posts and not just parts you would know that I would not like to see it close.

From your post history it is pretty clear you have a vested interest coupled with the fact you elected to post on the thread otherwise you would not have commented. You don't have to agree with anyone but at least try to look at the topic objectively, for the sake of discussion if nothing else.

LEGEND24

Well i'm sorry if it came across as abit crass, but its just that since i've joined the army all i've heard is that gormonston is closing, gormonston is closing,its like a yearly thing to be brought up, even going back to the tiger years! yet gormonston is still there, even after i have gone, and being honest, i still expect it to be still there when most of my friends have gone!! it just doesnt make sense to sell off a good asset to the DOD to me other than just putting a few more measly euros into someones pockets!! if it ever happens, which i will be surprised about, it will show how far this dying country is going!!!

Negative_G

LEGEND24 wrote: »

Well i'm sorry if it came across as abit crass, but its just that since i've joined the army all i've heard is that gormonston is closing, gormonston is closing,its like a yearly thing to be brought up, even going back to the tiger years! yet gormonston is still there, even after i have gone, and being honest, i still expect it to be still there when most of my friends have gone!! it just doesnt make sense to sell off a good asset to the DOD to me other than just putting a few more measly euros into someones pockets!! if it ever happens, which i will be surprised about, it will show how far this dying country is going!!!

The fact that it has been rumoured to be closed and yet it still remains intact suggests that someone important thinks that it offers something useful. In my opinion it would have been a prime candidate to close during the spate of barrack closures.

The next White Paper could well decide what the future has in store for Gormanston.