We need more power, Jim! (PM recommendations)

Oryx

Can anyone recommend me some tool/toy to give me power metrics on a limited budget? Pedals, cranks pms? What works best? I have a 910xt that I can use as a headset.

I know nuthin, and need educating.

catweazle

Why do you feel you need one?

Oryx

catweazle wrote: »

Why do you feel you need one?

I dont know that I do. Im checking options.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I am still possibly considering selling my P2M!

mossym

Victor Salmon Businessman wrote: »

I am still possibly considering selling my P2M!

i have one of these and very impressed. Not what i would call cheap though so you'd want to be pretty sure you want to go down the power route.

anything cheaper is one leg only, and loads has been said on that already. i guess it's a question whether you want to go down the training by power route completely, or just looking for extra information.

JB was selling that p2m when i was looking as well...if he decides to sell it would a good buy if the BB works out. i'd have taken it off him if he had decided to sell .

shotgunmcos

P2M vs Garmin Vector?

Thoughts? Can't justify buying either but in case I find a bargain somewhere, interested in opinions.

Is power Meter the only real way for biking? Taxc turbo does power of sorts which is OK for relative power training.:cool::cool: How much of a pain is it to swap your pm between bikes?

mossym

shotgunmcos wrote: »

P2M vs Garmin Vector?

Thoughts? Can't justify buying either but in case I find a bargain somewhere, interested in opinions.

Is power Meter the only real way for biking? Taxc turbo does power of sorts which is OK for relative power training.:cool::cool: How much of a pain is it to swap your pm between bikes?

depends on what you want to achieve. if using power jsut to focus training, but going to ignore it for racing, then the tacx might work. i'd imagin for the adventure racing, a PM might not make huge benefits given the terrain, your variability from avg power would be quite high. the tacx then for relative training might work just fine,

garmin vs. p2m. the garmin look great becuase changing a set of pedals is easy right? seems not so true with the garmins, they need special tools and a few have damaged them quite easily. also, again for adventure racing, how often have you smacked your pedals on rocks in ballyh? also you couldn't use flat pedals/trail shoes as they have to be look cleats.

p2m looks like a job to change, but it's not. left crank off, less than 30 seconds. right arm + cogs comes out, slide into other bike, left arm back on. needs a torque wrench alright, but most people would have one anyway

to be honest, and i'm both going back on what i said myself, and stoking a fire here, if you were focusing on AR and wanted power, the variability in what you were at would suggest that the errors in a one leg only solution may not be a real negative, something like the 4iiii might be an adequate solution. i wouldn't say the same for proper focused power training for tri though. a real case of depends what you want

tunney

mossym wrote: »

depends on what you want to achieve. if using power jsut to focus training, but going to ignore it for racing, then the tacx might work. i'd imagin for the adventure racing, a PM might not make huge benefits given the terrain, your variability from avg power would be quite high. the tacx then for relative training might work just fine,

garmin vs. p2m. the garmin look great becuase changing a set of pedals is easy right? seems not so true with the garmins, they need special tools and a few have damaged them quite easily. also, again for adventure racing, how often have you smacked your pedals on rocks in ballyh? also you couldn't use flat pedals/trail shoes as they have to be look cleats.

p2m looks like a job to change, but it's not. left crank off, less than 30 seconds. right arm + cogs comes out, slide into other bike, left arm back on. needs a torque wrench alright, but most people would have one anyway

to be honest, and i'm both going back on what i said myself, and stoking a fire here, if you were focusing on AR and wanted power, the variability in what you were at would suggest that the errors in a one leg only solution may not be a real negative, something like the 4iiii might be an adequate solution. i wouldn't say the same for proper focused power training for tri though. a real case of depends what you want

The more variability in Adventure Faffing would make the single leg approach of the states worse.

Power is the only way to go, (Peter in 3.....2.....1.....), once you get used to it you wonder how you managed. (assuming you actually use it properly)

sconhome

Definitely wouldnt be putting PM on my MTB. Pedals or otherwise.

I'm changing mine to the BTLE version and will be sticking to having them on the roadie and turbo.

mossym

tunney wrote: »

The more variability in Adventure Faffing would make the single leg approach of the states worse.

i'll let the shotgun and the western king deal with the faffing reference, but why would the variability make the single leg worse? you couldn't really work to an absolute limit anyway, so you just want some indicator you are not blowing up, even a crude one. i must be missing something?

pgibbo

What's you budget Oryx?

Personally I'd recommend one but they're not for everyone. Different strokes....

With regard to the Tacx Flow or other such trainers, what happens on your long spins, particularly if training for an IM and trying to work off a number? That's fine for shorter mid week turbo sessions but I would think you'd be better committing to either HR/RPE or Power and not falling between 2 stools with a mixed approach.

Oryx

At the moment I don't really know what the budget ballpark should be. I've seen a few different systems and the pricing varies wildly. I also have two bikes, so that's a consideration too.

Why am I looking into it? Because hr as a metric is not working well for me. It tends to be erratic and hard to work off, particularly when outdoors rather than on the turbo. Power might give me a more accurate picture of what I'm doing. At the moment I work mostly from rpe, but that tends to be subjective, and therefore less effective on days when you just can't be arsed!

pgibbo

Oryx wrote: »

At the moment I don't really know what the budget ballpark should be. I've seen a few different systems and the pricing varies wildly. I also have two bikes, so that's a consideration too.

Why am I looking into it? Because hr as a metric is not working well for me. It tends to be erratic and hard to work off, particularly when outdoors rather than on the turbo. Power might give me a more accurate picture of what I'm doing. At the moment I work mostly from rpe, but that tends to be subjective, and therefore less effective on days when you just can't be arsed!

That sounds very familiar. I think the options are:

1. Crank based (Stages, P2M, Quarq or SRM) ideally second hand to save money. If you have the same BB on both bikes then swapping the cranks is very easy. I'm mechanically useless but can do this with ease. All you need is a torque wrench. I'd say even CW might manage it :pac:
2. Wheel based - a powertap. You'd probably pick up a second hand one at a good proce but I believe they can be problematic.

I don't think pedals are an option given it's a limited budget.

Have you been keeping an eye on the cycling forum and other sites for second hand? There are some very good deals to be had on second hand wired SRMs.

BTH

pgibbo wrote: »

That sounds very familiar. I think the options are:

1. Crank based (Stages, P2M, Quarq or SRM) ideally second hand to save money. If you have the same BB on both bikes then swapping the cranks is very easy. I'm mechanically useless but can do this with ease. All you need is a torque wrench. I'd say even CW might manage it :pac:
2. Wheel based - a powertap. You'd probably pick up a second hand one at a good proce but I believe they can be problematic.

I don't think pedals are an option given it's a limited budget.

Have you been keeping an eye on the cycling forum and other sites for second hand? There are some very good deals to be had on second hand wired SRMs.

Don't go nuts now Paul.

mossym

pgibbo wrote: »

With regard to the Tacx Flow or other such trainers, what happens on your long spins, particularly if training for an IM and trying to work off a number? That's fine for shorter mid week turbo sessions but I would think you'd be better committing to either HR/RPE or Power and not falling between 2 stools with a mixed approach.

agreed. if training for tri with a mix of long outdoor spins and turbos the tacx not going to work very well

catweazle

Oryx wrote: »

At the moment I work mostly from rpe, but that tends to be subjective, and therefore less effective on days when you just can't be arsed!

Oryx take this the right way but I have never got the impression from reading your log that you are hung up on numbers. You are mentally tough and the training always gets done but are you rigidly stuck to a plan as regards heart rate paces, target times. Do you know what you have lined you for this weeks training to a tee. Are you falling over yourself uploading to Garmin Connect after training sessions.

I know you have got a coach recently so perhaps that's why you are looking for more structure

I have often thought about getting a PM but I know well that after a few weeks I will fall by the wayside as regards monitoring it.

Guys like Gibbo, Mossy, Tunny, Jacky - you just know they love the stats and it would be far more suited to them then someone like me

joey100

I tried using trainer road before I bought a power meter. It uses an Ant+ receiver, speed and cadence sensor, laptop and a supported trainer (if you have any of these for your garmin they will work, it also supports heart rate). It then does some maths and gives you your 'virtual' power. A good introduction to training with power and plenty of workouts to choose from. The obvious draw back is it is only on the turbo but it gives you an idea what it's like to train using power.

costs around $10 dollars a month and can be cancelled when ever you want. I've used it for the last year and a half and becuase of the gains from using it I've bought a power2max.

tunney

catweazle wrote: »

Oryx take this the right way but I have never got the impression from reading your log that you are hung up on numbers. You are mentally tough and the training always gets done but are you rigidly stuck to a plan as regards heart rate paces, target times. Do you know what you have lined you for this weeks training to a tee. Are you falling over yourself uploading to Garmin Connect after training sessions.

I know you have got a coach recently so perhaps that's why you are looking for more structure

I have often thought about getting a PM but I know well that after a few weeks I will fall by the wayside as regards monitoring it.

Guys like Gibbo, Mossy, Tunny, Jacky - you just know they love the stats and it would be far more suited to them then someone like me

Has your coach recommended a power meter?

pgibbo

catweazle wrote: »

Oryx take this the right way but I have never got the impression from reading your log that you are hung up on numbers. You are mentally tough and the training always gets done but are you rigidly stuck to a plan as regards heart rate paces, target times. Do you know what you have lined you for this weeks training to a tee. Are you falling over yourself uploading to Garmin Connect after training sessions.

I know you have got a coach recently so perhaps that's why you are looking for more structure

I have often thought about getting a PM but I know well that after a few weeks I will fall by the wayside as regards monitoring it.

Guys like Gibbo, Mossy, Tunny, Jacky - you just know they love the stats and it would be far more suited to them then someone like me

You're happy enough to track HR & pace and harp on about it. Don't see much of a difference to be honest.

sconhome

catweazle wrote: »

Oryx take this the right way but I have never got the impression from reading your log that you are hung up on numbers. You are mentally tough and the training always gets done but are you rigidly stuck to a plan as regards heart rate paces, target times. Do you know what you have lined you for this weeks training to a tee. Are you falling over yourself uploading to Garmin Connect after training sessions.

I know you have got a coach recently so perhaps that's why you are looking for more structure

I have often thought about getting a PM but I know well that after a few weeks I will fall by the wayside as regards monitoring it.

Guys like Gibbo, Mossy, Tunny, Jacky - you just know they love the stats and it would be far more suited to them then someone like me

What did I do to get left out? Too many vowels?? :P

catweazle

tunney wrote: »

Has your coach recommended a power meter?

Yes he has but I secretly think he is trying to pawn of his one and upgrade to a SRM

pgibbo wrote: »

You're happy enough to track HR & pace and harp on about it. Don't see much of a difference to be honest.

Absolutely but that tracking is done on a daily basis and gives me something to moan about on my log, no thought has been put into hows its performed over the years.

AKW wrote: »

What did I do to get left out? Too many vowels?? :P

Not much point namechecking someone that hasn't been on a road bike in over a year

Oryx

catweazle wrote: »

Oryx take this the right way but I have never got the impression from reading your log that you are hung up on numbers. You are mentally tough and the training always gets done but are you rigidly stuck to a plan as regards heart rate paces, target times. Do you know what you have lined you for this weeks training to a tee. Are you falling over yourself uploading to Garmin Connect after training sessions.

I know you have got a coach recently so perhaps that's why you are looking for more structure

I have often thought about getting a PM but I know well that after a few weeks I will fall by the wayside as regards monitoring it.

Guys like Gibbo, Mossy, Tunny, Jacky - you just know they love the stats and it would be far more suited to them then someone like me

I dont upload sessions nor do I talk numbers but that doesnt mean I dont watch them while training and I do know what they are. Just a little less diligently than others perhaps.

The coach asked if I had a pm and would find it useful but never puts pressure to get any kit or tools.

The reason I'm looking at this is because I know im not working as well as I could on the bike. I will make progress without one but I want to get opinions as to whether it would be a good thing to add to the coached training toolkit.

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

I dont upload sessions nor do I talk numbers but that doesnt mean I dont watch them while training and I do know what they are. Just a little less diligently than others perhaps.

<snip>

Oryx wrote: »

The coach asked if I had a pm and would find it useful but never puts pressure to get any kit or tools.

Good

The reason I'm looking at this is because I know im not working as well as I could on the bike. I will make progress without one but I want to get opinions as to whether it would be a good thing to add to the coached training toolkit.[/QUOTE]

But isn't it the responsibility of the coach to improve your training?

Oryx

tunney wrote: »

<snip>.

And you at the moment, it would appear?

But isn't it the responsibility of the coach to improve your training?

I trust her methods, but the day you hand total responsibility to someone else is the day you start to fail. I am allowed to investigate options ya know.

tunney

If you are getting a power meter its hard to see past the P2M. I think this time next year it will be a harder call to make but for now its the P2M being the best when you consider accuracy, repeatability, and cost. The features it lacks are only present on SRMs so most others lack them too. (user calibration and verification)

P2M definitely.

The 910xt however would not be my head unit of choice, it has issues with keeping signals with power meters (any brand). Not if mounted on the bars mind you, just on the wrist. That being said if going on the bars then its fine.

P2M and 910xt and a reasonable coach and your training would be transformed IMHO - IF you are happy to forgo rides with less disciplines groups.

A half way mechanical person can change the cranks quickly - even fran and mossy can.

my 2c

tunney

And before someone comes on going on about how power meters x.....y......z

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Kona_14_Top_15_women_-_bike_4720.html

Top 15 ladies in Kona. 14 PMs

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

5mins and you can have the PM switched over to another bike.

I am contemplating wireless SRMs hence possibly selling my P2M.

peter kern

hard to look past the 640 euro power2 max.the cheapest one that works realiable .

ps i would work on why you cant be arsed some days ;-0
thats usually the big difference between the ones that really achieve
and that that dont they make the difficult days count and the others find excuses.( regardless if 'training' with power or without . )

Oryx wrote: »

At the moment I don't really know what the budget ballpark should be. I've seen a few different systems and the pricing varies wildly. I also have two bikes, so that's a consideration too.

Why am I looking into it? Because hr as a metric is not working well for me. It tends to be erratic and hard to work off, particularly when outdoors rather than on the turbo. Power might give me a more accurate picture of what I'm doing. At the moment I work mostly from rpe, but that tends to be subjective, and therefore less effective on days when you just can't be arsed!

desertcircus

There's an interesting product from See.Sense that's unfortunately only at prototype stage so far: they're building a power meter that works off an accelerometer rather than a strain gauge and slaves to an Android phone to save on cost, and are using the accelerometer's capabilities to provide feedback on how much of the workload is being done by specific muscle groups. Possibly one for the future...

sconhome

desertcircus wrote: »

There's an interesting product from See.Sense that's unfortunately only at prototype stage so far: they're building a power meter that works off an accelerometer rather than a strain gauge and slaves to an Android phone to save on cost, and are using the accelerometer's capabilities to provide feedback on how much of the workload is being done by specific muscle groups. Possibly one for the future...

Any link or details?

mossym

be interesting to see how that works, an accelerometer will read the same for every rotation of a certain speed, ignoring the gear, which means massively different power. the only thing i can think of with an accelerometer is something like trainerroad, where you try to extrapolate speed back to power. how accurate can that be?

even if they solve that, anything phone based is a no no for me. battery life, cost of replacement after a crash, use in wet weather, use in a race, all work against a phone based system