Legality of Halloween bonfires

DS86

I'm wondering if anybody knows what is the legal position in Ireland regarding bonfires, or more to the point, bonfires that contain non-toxic material? Just curious as some local puritan killjoys managed to get the local one banned destroying an ancient tradition and one of the things which makes Halloween actually an event to look forward to.

goz83

Well they are illegal. It's lighting a massive fire outside and usually on public land. Kinda sucks. I have a used door out the backyard i was hoping would be taken and burned. Our local fire collection has just disappeared this year. :mad:

DS86

goz83 wrote: »

Well they are illegal. It's lighting a massive fire outside and usually on public land. Kinda sucks. I have a used door out the backyard i was hoping would be taken and burned. Our local fire collection has just disappeared this year. :mad:

So our legal system is playing nanny state and effectively outlawying an Ancient Irish tradition dating back thousands of years? That's nice to know.

Atlantic Dawn

Probably down to who owns the land the fire is on, if the land is privately owned there's probably regulations on what can be burned. I'd imagine a timber based fire on private land would be fully legal.

rawn

They should be illegal full stop. Kids in our estate have been lighting fires in our estate every night (and some mornings) for about a month now. They keep lighting them up against walls (people's back garden walls and a big wall we have separating the estate from a dual carriageway) as well as beyond the wall in the middle of trees that also border the carriageway. The fire brigade has been out at least 8 times to put them out (probably more on nights I wasn't home). The walls are destroyed and blackened, and after the fire is put out they crash trolleys into the still-warm paintwork so that it has broken away in huge chunks. What I would like to know is who is liable to pay the call-out fees for the fire brigades and who is going to foot the money it is going to cost for the repairing of the wall. They've also thrown paint up and down the wall too, for the craic.

Zillah

rawn wrote: »

They should be illegal full stop. Kids in our estate have been lighting fires in our estate every night (and some mornings) for about a month now. They keep lighting them up against walls (people's back garden walls and a big wall we have separating the estate from a dual carriageway) as well as beyond the wall in the middle of trees that also border the carriageway. The fire brigade has been out at least 8 times to put them out (probably more on nights I wasn't home). The walls are destroyed and blackened, and after the fire is put out they crash trolleys into the still-warm paintwork so that it has broken away in huge chunks. What I would like to know is who is liable to pay the call-out fees for the fire brigades and who is going to foot the money it is going to cost for the repairing of the wall. They've also thrown paint up and down the wall too, for the craic.

This doesn't really have anything to do with bonfires. You have a gang of delinquents engaging in mass scale vandalism.

rawn

Zillah wrote: »

This doesn't really have anything to do with bonfires. You have a gang of delinquents engaging in mass scale vandalism.

Yes. Well I really was just wondering who is responsible for fire brigade call-outs and damage caused by bonfires in general.

Gatling

rawn wrote: »

Yes. Well I really was just wondering who is responsible for fire brigade call-outs and damage caused by bonfires in general.

Suppose there parents if your have the stones to approach them .
As for calling out the fire brigade if it's not a direct threat to a house or other building it's pretty much a waste of time and service imo.

mrsbyrne

DS86 wrote: »

So our legal system is playing nanny state and effectively outlawying an Ancient Irish tradition dating back thousands of years? That's nice to know.

Presumably your bonfire was to e in a public area. And if a buinch of scrotes showed up and ran amok resulting in injury to themselves or others then who was going to he responsible regarding insurance, you?

Del2005

DS86 wrote: »

I'm wondering if anybody knows what is the legal position in Ireland regarding bonfires, or more to the point, bonfires that contain non-toxic material? Just curious as some local puritan killjoys managed to get the local one banned destroying an ancient tradition and one of the things which makes Halloween actually an event to look forward to.

AFAIK any fire outdoors is illegal, you can't burn garden waste. So a bonfire is also illegal.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/waste_management_and_recycling/burning_household_waste.html

Demonical

Don't farmers have to inform when they are going to burn material (bushes, trimmings etc.) on their land so I'd imagine if a bonfire was appropriately organised and ran and the local council and Gardai informed there wouldn't be much of a problem. It's idiots that are burning household waste, tyres, matresses, couches etc. that should definitely be stopped along with any dopes using fireworks as both are illegal. As far as I know there were plenty of organised bonfires around the country, it's the "backyard" illegal ones need stopping.

Dublin City Council here are saying that ALL bonfires are illegal which is technically true but as above I'm sure there may be ways and means around that i.e. a local community can arrange one with appropriate materials and supervision in a suitable area if they apply in the correct manner well before the night....

http://www.dublincity.ie/halloween-dublin

Demonical

DS86 wrote: »

I'm wondering if anybody knows what is the legal position in Ireland regarding bonfires, or more to the point, bonfires that contain non-toxic material? Just curious as some local puritan killjoys managed to get the local one banned destroying an ancient tradition and one of the things which makes Halloween actually an event to look forward to.

Did those that built your local bonfire apply to the council and gardai about it before it was gathered? What materials were being used?

Using "ancient tradition" by the way is a farcical excuse for wanting a bonfire. Slavery was an ancient tradition in many cultures, do you think we still should be allowed practice it due to that reason?

goz83

Demonical wrote: »

Did those that built your local bonfire apply to the council and gardai about it before it was gathered? What materials were being used?

Using "ancient tradition" by the way is a farcical excuse for wanting a bonfire. Slavery was an ancient tradition in many cultures, do you think we still should be allowed practice it due to that reason?

You're really comparing lighting a bonfire with slavery with regards to tradition? Both are illegal, yes. But come on man....pull yourself together, for the love of Jaysus.

High horses are tradition in most Internet forums too.

Demonical

goz83 wrote: »

You're really comparing lighting a bonfire with slavery with regards to tradition? Both are illegal, yes. But come on man....pull yourself together, for the love of Jaysus.

High horses are tradition in most Internet forums too.

I'm not on any high horse at all (he was denied his morning spliff today so he's more vexed than high at this point). I was trying to show how invalid using "tradition" as a reason for maintaining a practice was. What example would you like me to have used? Fox hunting? Badger baiting? Hare coursing? Feet binding? Female genital mutilation? Circumcision? It seems when people use "tradition" as an excuse for wanting to do anything they think it negates any ill effects caused by the "tradition". And anyway...I never said I was against bonfires. I just said they should be organised and executed properly.

234

Demonical wrote: »

I'm not on any high horse at all (he was denied his morning spliff today so he's more vexed than high at this point). I was trying to show how invalid using "tradition" as a reason for maintaining a practice was. What example would you like me to have used? Fox hunting? Badger baiting? Hare coursing? Feet binding? Female genital mutilation? Circumcision? It seems when people use "tradition" as an excuse for wanting to do anything they think it negates any ill effects caused by the "tradition". And anyway...I never said I was against bonfires. I just said they should be organised and executed properly.

On the tradition point: the cultural and emotional attachment that people can experience with traditions can be valid reasons for retaining them, especially when the cause little to no harm. The distinguishing feature of all the examples which you cite above is that they all involve some form of victim who is caused harm. This much less so with bonfires (though there will of course be a debate about fire brigade call-outs and the extent to which this is really an issue attributable to the bonfire per se), so you can't just dismiss the tradition argument based on an in-apt analogy.

Demonical

234 wrote: »

On the tradition point: the cultural and emotional attachment that people can experience with traditions can be valid reasons for retaining them, especially when the cause little to no harm. The distinguishing feature of all the examples which you cite above is that they all involve some form of victim who is caused harm. This much less so with bonfires (though there will of course be a debate about fire brigade call-outs and the extent to which this is really an issue attributable to the bonfire per se), so you can't just dismiss the tradition argument based on an in-apt analogy.

But there is a victim when illegal bonfires are lit i.e. the environment, which, in turn, affects everyone. All the fumes from the matresses, tyres, household rubbish etc., what do you think they do? And then what about hedgehogs that may have taken refuge in the stockpile if it was being gathered for a number of days/weeks beforehand? Not to mention the other victims of individual illegal bonfires that may be created e.g.people falling into the bonfire or being pushed in, things blowing up in the fire, in addition to animals being thrown into it. And like you said certain illegal bonfires can put additional, unnecessary strain on certain services like the ambulance and fire brigade. I, therefore do not think that my analogy was in-apt.

234

Demonical wrote: »

But there is a victim when illegal bonfires are lit i.e. the environment, which, in turn, affects everyone. All the fumes from the matresses, tyres, household rubbish etc., what do you think they do? And then what about hedgehogs that may have taken refuge in the stockpile if it was being gathered for a number of days/weeks beforehand? Not to mention the other victims of individual illegal bonfires that may be created e.g.people falling into the bonfire or being pushed in, things blowing up in the fire, in addition to animals being thrown into it. And like you said certain illegal bonfires can put additional, unnecessary strain on certain services like the ambulance and fire brigade. I, therefore do not think that my analogy was in-apt.

Your analogies involved harm to another sentient being as a necessary element. Most of the things that you have listed aren't necessary harms caused by bonfires, but incidental harms that can arise when people are careless, malicious, etc. (falling in, being pushed in, animals being thrown in). Some things may involve some harm but it is very low level (some will have tyres thrown on, potential harm to air quality (though this is minimal).

The only real one is the strain on services. This is certainly not in any way comparable with the kinds of harmful actions which you were comparing bonfires to (footbinding, slavery). And to a large extent the strain is a product of illegality, and not the cause of illegality. Most bonfires are extinguished not because they pose a threat to a neighbouring house, it is because that the circumstances in which they are conducted means that they are illegal. The strain on services would probably be greatly reduced if we legalised the lighting of bonfires in circumstances were it was safe to do so.

While you never went into the realms of hyperbolic Nazi comparisons, equating slavery with bonfires in terms of tradition v harm is over the top.

goz83

Demonical wrote: »

I'm not on any high horse at all (he was denied his morning spliff today so he's more vexed than high at this point). I was trying to show how invalid using "tradition" as a reason for maintaining a practice was. What example would you like me to have used? Fox hunting? Badger baiting? Hare coursing? Feet binding? Female genital mutilation? Circumcision? It seems when people use "tradition" as an excuse for wanting to do anything they think it negates any ill effects caused by the "tradition". And anyway...I never said I was against bonfires. I just said they should be organised and executed properly.

I believe 234 has got it bang on the money. But, to answer your question, i think a better analogy would be the tradition of throwing rice over the bride and groom as they exit the church. Should this also be made illegal? Lets consider the consequences, or at least the potential consequences.

Rice might get into someones eye and cause damage to ones eyesight.
The throwing of rice is technically littering, but is overlooked.
Birds often eat the rice and have been known to die as a result of the rice expanding in their stomachs and causing death.

I suggested your high horsery because you mentioned applying to the council and contacting the Gardai about a bonfire and commented on the materials used in a fire. Dealing with the council over a problematic tree in a public place is bad enough. Imagine applying for permission to light a fire outside the realms of a farm.