Mobile phone required for apartment pedestrian gate!

legendary.xix

Hi,

The apartment complex that someone I know is living in is accessed by two gates:
A vehicle gate - opens by calling a number. (Used to operate by fob as well but not any more.)
A pedestrian gate - used to have a key code. Now it requires a number being called for it to open.

For both gates, the phone numbers making the call have to be added to a system. I was a bit surprised to hear of the system being used for the pedestrian gate. There seems too many variables that can go wrong. Someone could be out and about all day and their phone is dead. Someone might leave it at work or some place else. If someone arrived back at 2am without their phone, they'll have no way to get in despite having their keys! Phones aren't durable at times either. Maybe someone might run out of credit or have a billing issue. Anyone living an active lifestyle going out for a run is being forced to bring a phone with them. In the case of an emergency, it doesn't seem the safest either.

Has anyone coming across such a system? Some one could be trapped in or out of their apartment complex. Would this system fail health & safety criteria or something like that? No manual option is available for the tenants.

Feedback and advice very much appreciated.

Marcusm

Are you a tenant or a leaseholder? If a leaseholder, I would argue that it is an undue restriction on the rights of way which will have been granted to you over the common areas. Adequate security is necessary but it should not be of a nature as to require you to incur any particular expense or to keep particular pieces of equipment beyond keys, fobs etc.

legendary.xix

Marcusm wrote: »

Are you a tenant or a leaseholder? If a leaseholder, I would argue that it is an undue restriction on the rights of way which will have been granted to you over the common areas. Adequate security is necessary but it should not be of a nature as to require you to incur any particular expense or to keep particular pieces of equipment beyond keys, fobs etc.

Hi, my mate that lives there is a tenant. He's raised the issue with the agency in charge of the apartment but is looking for more information. My understanding is that the call to the gate is free of charge. Heard one of his neighbours was out of credit and as a result could not ring the gate for it to open! Seems bizarre.

The_Conductor

We've recently installed this system.
Its called GSM Slave- and the purpose of the system is to control access to the premises. Less than 1% of people leave without their mobile phones- even people who go out jogging etc in the evening- have their phones- its essentially not the case that people will be unfairly/unjustly excluded from the premises.

Its on a Fail Safe- rather than a Fail Secure- system- if there is a problem with electricity failure, or an electrical issue with the workings of the system- it automatically opens, rather than locks shut.

There is an over-ride- and normally owner occupiers (but not tenants) will be given keys to reboot the system, or to over-ride it.

Talk to the Management Agent for further information.

Grolschevik

My place, the vehicle in gate has a zapper and mobile phone control. Latter is handy for remotely letting people in.

Pedestrian access is keypad.

Vehicle exit is sensor activated.

legendary.xix

The_Conductor wrote: »

We've recently installed this system.
Its called GSM Slave- and the purpose of the system is to control access to the premises. Less than 1% of people leave without their mobile phones- even people who go out jogging etc in the evening- have their phones- its essentially not the case that people will be unfairly/unjustly excluded from the premises.

Its on a Fail Safe- rather than a Fail Secure- system- if there is a problem with electricity failure, or an electrical issue with the workings of the system- it automatically opens, rather than locks shut.

There is an over-ride- and normally owner occupiers (but not tenants) will be given keys to reboot the system, or to over-ride it.

Talk to the Management Agent for further information.

My phone is the last thing I want with me if I'm out running! Not everyone is into phone's mapping their running performance. There's already been a case at the apartments of someone without phone credit not being able to get out! If a phone battery runs low or the phone is dropped, surely there has to be a manual override in these cases?

longhalloween

legendary.xix wrote: »

My phone is the last thing I want with me if I'm out running! Not everyone is into phone's mapping their running performance. There's already been a case at the apartments of someone without phone credit not being able to get out! If a phone battery runs low or the phone is dropped, surely there has to be a manual override in these cases?

There's usually a keypad with it? When you call the gate it should automatically hang up before the call is answered, so it shouldn't cost yiu money.

ted1

The_Conductor wrote: »

We've recently installed this system.
Its called GSM Slave- and the purpose of the system is to control access to the premises. Less than 1% of people leave without their mobile phones- even people who go out jogging etc in the evening- have their phones- its essentially not the case that people will be unfairly/unjustly excluded from the premises.

I never bring my phone when out jogging.

While less than 1% may leave without their phone, a much larger percentage come home with their battery dead.


What did we all do before electric gates?

The_Conductor

We had a bigger problem with people loosing their zapper- when we had zappers- or giving out the code for the gate willy nilly- which resulted in several cars being robbed, alongside an exhaust system off a Mercedes delivery van- one night- it really was an act of desperation installing the system.

There is no charge to making a call to the system- however, if you loose your phone or its dead- you'll just have to wait until someone else comes along (and the complex is big enough that you wouldn't normally be waiting more than a few minutes- often there may be a queue of cars entering or leaving at the same time.........

Unfortunately if people abuse the systems in place- which in our case included one set of tenants who believed nudging the gate with the front bumper of their car an acceptable manner of opening the gate- you do have to progressively install more robust systems- until you have something in place that works.

legendary.xix

longhalloween wrote: »

There's usually a keypad with it? When you call the gate it should automatically hang up before the call is answered, so it shouldn't cost yiu money.

There is no keypad with the pedestrian gate. Phone call only. No charge for the call but if out of credit, a call will not go through!

The_Conductor wrote: »

There is no charge to making a call to the system- however, if you loose your phone or its dead- you'll just have to wait until someone else comes along (and the complex is big enough that you wouldn't normally be waiting more than a few minutes- often there may be a queue of cars entering or leaving at the same time.........

Unfortunately if people abuse the systems in place- which in our case included one set of tenants who believed nudging the gate with the front bumper of their car an acceptable manner of opening the gate- you do have to progressively install more robust systems- until you have something in place that works.

All systems should meet certain criteria. Someone could be on a night out and their phone gets stolen! Someone might leave work which could be over half an hour away without their phone. It does not seem right for a system to depend solely on a phone. Even a swipe card system might be better?

Mikros

Sounds like a terrible idea to me - as already mentioned there is many a night out I would be coming home with no battery left on my phone and I doubt there would be a constant stream of people coming in during the early hours of the morning to let me in. Unless there was some sort of manual override available I wouldn't be impressed at all.

The_Conductor

legendary.xix wrote: »

There is no keypad with the pedestrian gate. Phone call only. No charge for the call but if out of credit, a call will not go through!

We kept our number pad for our pedestrian gate- but insisted on changing the code every 2 months. We've had more complaints about code changes and requests for it to be added to the GSM Slave- than anything else.

legendary.xix wrote: »

All systems should meet certain criteria. Someone could be on a night out and their phone gets stolen! Someone might leave work which could be over half an hour away without their phone. It does not seem right for a system to depend solely on a phone. Even a swipe card system might be better?

In our case- we're less than 200m from the local Garda baracks. The Gardai phone number is one of the registered numbers to open our gate- if- in the case of an emergency- it has to be opened- the Gardai can do it. The local postman is registered on the system- as are City Bin Co and our grounds team.

We went the ultra safe route- and insisted on it being a 'fail safe' rather than a 'fail secure' system. Aka- if the power is cut- it automatically opens. Our insurance is about 1,400 higher than it would be for a fail secure system- however, its a safer system- as if there is an emergency- there is a way of opening it. We also use remote stored IP camera to record all comings and goings (and our bin area) which has stopped a lot of younger people hanging around drinking in the area etc.

Its a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. If you have one bad set of tenants in a development- they can make life hell for absolutely everyone else..........

seamus

As The_Conductor says, access systems are all about weighing up the pros and the cons. Fob access is troublesome because fobs are easily lost or have batteries run out, etc. Then you're stuck outside and nobody can help. Or if someone drops a fob outside, the person who picks it up has free access to the development.

Access codes don't have the problem of being lost or running out of battery - though arguably make drunken ingress difficult - but they're horrifically inelastic. It's impossible to control who does and does not have the code. At least with a fob, someone has to have the fob.

It would seem to me that phone access combines the best of both worlds - the code can't be shared, and a lost phone does not mean compromised security. The vast majority of people (including runners), have a phone on them all the time, with enough power/credit to make a single outgoing call.

There is no perfect access system, they all have their faults.

cornee

You cant please all of the people all of the time. Good system.

legendary.xix

cornee wrote: »

You cant please all of the people all of the time. Good system.

You can't but people should be able to get in and out of their apartment without any bother.

piperh

I think it would take some getting used to but consulted and implemented properly it would be fine.

We lived in a block complex where they were fob activated and it quickly became common knowledge you could "jump" the door. A swift hard yank and the magnetic contacts came apart and eventually broke. The local lowlife were well aware of this and a number of break ins meant the management were discussing options as we left. I wouldn't have objected to this phone system if it meant increased security.

Marcusm

The problem I've had with it is the remote access feature. Using a fob, a zapper or a key code requires proximity. The phone system has led to significant unauthorised access (plus 9 smashed drivers' windows) in my complex. Maybe it's less of an issue in less built up areas but the random garage door openings caused by phone users has significantly reduced security levels.

bmm

Dont like the idea of a gate being opened remotely. Anybody could pass in! Most inner city apartment blocks disconnect intercom systems. Tenants must go to the door to let friends etc. in.

leeroybrown

I really dislike the idea of being locked out by these system the one time it's most likely to happen - late at night with a dead phone battery after a long day. I agree that fob and code based systems both have major drawbacks too but at least they're not going to leave you on the side of the street at night. It sounds like a system that needs a "one time" override where an authorised person can enter their mobile number and a pin of their choice once to gain entry but need to request a reset afterwards.

Is there a system available for complex access which using a finger print scanner. It would appear to be an ideal solution.

Paulw

leeroybrown wrote: »

I really dislike the idea of being locked out by these system the one time it's most likely to happen - late at night with a dead phone battery after a long day. I agree that fob and code based systems both have major drawbacks too but at least they're not going to leave you on the side of the street at night.

So, if you lost your fob you wouldn't also be locked out?

Our system moved to phone based, after it was voted in at an AGM. People preferred the idea of using a phone to a fob/zapper based system. There is also a keypad, but the code is not given out to residents. After putting in the phone system, we have had less unauthorized access.

Once someone knows the gate code, they share it with everyone - kids pass it around quicker than anything. Delivery men know it, etc.

Zappers are not too hard to clone/copy.

The phone system is more reliable. Haven't yet had any complaints about people not being able to get in due to phone issues and we have it about 2 years now.

leeroybrown

Paulw wrote: »

So, if you lost your fob you wouldn't also be locked out?

Most people don't lose their fobs just like most people don't lose their phone. Fob batteries however last for years whereas modern smartphone batteries routinely run flat if you're using them heavily, haven't been somewhere with with a charger or just plain forgot to plug them in the night before. I'd find it too unreliable a system for someone who spends a lot of time on the go and away from chargers but that's my personal opinion. It may suit some blocks perfectly.

enda1

Why not have a simple key entry alongside? Keys are pretty good ye know.

leeroybrown

enda1 wrote: »

Why not have a simple key entry alongside? Keys are pretty good ye know.

That defeats the purpose of moving away from key based entry. Even in a small block you build up a list of lost keys or unreturned keys eventually and end up with the costs and inconvenience of dealing with it.

Gatling

We've had the system on the main gate for 2 years now it's works pretty well 99% of the time .
We kept the pedestrian gate on a key for the moment .
The only thing I don't agree with and is the same fob access for the front doors when landlords or owners miss a management fee payment or are late making a payment access gets blocked pretty quick .
Resulting in cars beeping horns all hours of the night and early mornings.
Followed by the front doors been repeatedly kicked until people get in again

enda1

leeroybrown wrote: »

That defeats the purpose of moving away from key based entry. Even in a small block you build up a list of lost keys or unreturned keys eventually and end up with the costs and inconvenience of dealing with it.

Sounds a lot more convenient than relying on a charged phone and a number being registered. Keys work even without electricity.

leeroybrown

enda1 wrote: »

Sounds a lot more convenient than relying on a charged phone and a number being registered. Keys work even without electricity.

Convenient, yes. I'm not arguing that. But when you've a large block and get into the territory of changing multiple lock barrels and every resident's entry key every time lost keys become a major security term lots of cash starts disappearing regularly.

enda1

leeroybrown wrote: »

Convenient, yes. I'm not arguing that. But when you've a large block and get into the territory of changing multiple lock barrels and every resident's entry key every time lost keys become a major security term lots of cash starts disappearing regularly.

When you have large blocks, occupiers don't know each other so let others enter anyway as they approach. Putting in complicated systems such as this do nothing to improve security, add to frustration of residents and cost more than just having key entry or pin pad.

ted1

Why the need for gates ?

spaceHopper

The_Conductor wrote: »

We kept our number pad for our pedestrian gate- but insisted on changing the code every 2 months. We've had more complaints about code changes and requests for it to be added to the GSM Slave- than anything else.



In our case- we're less than 200m from the local Garda baracks. The Gardai phone number is one of the registered numbers to open our gate- if- in the case of an emergency- it has to be opened- the Gardai can do it. The local postman is registered on the system- as are City Bin Co and our grounds team.

We went the ultra safe route- and insisted on it being a 'fail safe' rather than a 'fail secure' system. Aka- if the power is cut- it automatically opens. Our insurance is about 1,400 higher than it would be for a fail secure system- however, its a safer system- as if there is an emergency- there is a way of opening it. We also use remote stored IP camera to record all comings and goings (and our bin area) which has stopped a lot of younger people hanging around drinking in the area etc.

Its a matter of weighing up the pros and cons. If you have one bad set of tenants in a development- they can make life hell for absolutely everyone else..........

What happens if I'm driving aren't there legal implications to using a car behind the wheel?

Paulw

ted1 wrote: »

Why the need for gates ?

Why the need for a front door on your house?

the_syco

legendary.xix wrote: »

My understanding is that the call to the gate is free of charge.

Perhaps free from a landline, but would the mobile operator charge you, for use of their line?

enda1 wrote: »

Sounds a lot more convenient than relying on a charged phone and a number being registered. Keys work even without electricity.

Keys can be copied easy enough.

=-=

The phone thing sounds like a good idea, though.

Paulw

the_syco wrote: »

Perhaps free from a landline, but would the mobile operator charge you, for use of their line?

No, because the call is never answered. It rings and then disconnects. If the incoming number is recognised by the system, the gate opens. If not, the gate stays closed. No actual call is connected. So, if you have your number set to private and not display, the gate won't open either.

seamus

ted1 wrote: »

Why the need for gates ?

While there is a fair argument that gates are overkill in security terms - clearly there are estates all over the country that get along just fine without them - there are also plenty of valid reasons to gates.

Especially in the case of single developments containing a lot of apartments, underground car park, etc, the nature of these developments means that the access roads and out buildings are extremely secluded and quiet.
This makes them a magnet for fly-tipping, people using the place for park-and-ride, and anti-social behaviour in general.
Because the roads are privately owned, combatting tipping and parking is difficult and expensive.

So it can work out more cost effective to simply put gates up to combat both of these, and you also the get to beat a certain amount of anti-social behaviour with the same action.

leeroybrown

ted1 wrote: »

Why the need for gates ?

I know someone who discovered there were a group of heroin addicts squatting in a dark corner of the car park of their complex. Having a reasonable barrier preventing entry prevents the majority of the problems that could otherwise be occur.

the_syco

ted1 wrote: »

Why the need for gates ?

As well as those listed above, it helps keep the underground carpark a bit safer. Some complexes that have underground carparks that are unused, as cars were set on fire and/or otherwise vandalised.

ted1

Paulw wrote: »

Why the need for a front door on your house?

To keep the heat in.

I really don't see what benefit they offer, they cost a fortune to maintain. There's plenty of estates without gates and they get by just fine., from the responses above the concencous is that.
1.) places without underground car parks don't need them.
2.) clampers don't work. As they can look after the issue of non residents parking there.

Mrs OBumble

spaceHopper wrote: »

What happens if I'm driving aren't there legal implications to using a car behind the wheel?

Classic post

But I'm sure you mean: What happens if I'm driving aren't there legal implications to using a phone behind the wheel?

leeroybrown

spaceHopper wrote: »

What happens if I'm driving aren't there legal implications to using a car behind the wheel?

This one is actually quite interesting. Even if you're on a private driveway approaching the gate it's technically in a publicly accessible place which is how the courts seem to have been interpreting the legislation for private property.