UCD buys retired greyhounds for dissection by veterinary students

An Ri rua

As a Smurfit School graduate, I am quite appalled by this. Thanks to NARA for bringing it to my attention. Hope its of interest to some of you. Veterinary students need real bodies to work on, but surely animals should not be killed for this end, no more than humans are. A bit of compassion and traceability in animals exploited for fun and profit would do no harm and should be expected in a vendor selection process by a university of standing.

The mystery of the 1,000 greyhounds who retire and then vanish

University College Dublin admitted buying 33 dogs last year, the report by the LACS and GREY2K USA, an American greyhound protection organisation.

Raphael

I've edited your post to remove the text of the article, as copying articles in full is against boards policy, and also to remove the capital letters and evocative language (slaughtered is an extremely loaded term).

Taking the mod hat off, this is a very ****ty way to get bodies to work on, but I'm wracking my brain and having a hard time coming up with a better way, for a number of reasons.

1. The University is probably going to need to get almost all those bodies at a particular time every year, which neccesitates sourcing in bulk.
2. Pet owners may be unwilling to give up the body of a deceased pet.
3. Animals that have already passed away of other causes may not be suitable for dissection, depending on how they died.
4. Having all animals used for this being of the same breed seems like it would be beneficial for anatomy lessons.

An Ri rua

Sorry for breaking the rules, points noted. And thank you for your input. Yes, its a difficult subject but I think its great to air it so that people are more informed.

Medical students need cadavers, veterinary students likewise. But perhaps we can ensure animal traceability and compassion where at all possible. At least ensuring that animals are not put down for this purpose. There must be a better way; to let them live as well as possible. Clearly, very few might donate their pet for such a purpose. But those who have working animals might do. Its just food for thought for all connected with UCD. And yes, a difficult issue.

CelticRambler

An Ri rua wrote: »

As a Smurfit School graduate, I am quite appalled by this. Thanks to NARA for bringing it to my attention. Hope its of interest to some of you. Veterinary students need real bodies to work on, but surely animals should not be killed for this end, no more than humans are.

There's no "mystery" involved here - just naïve city-dwellers who prefer not know where their consumer-products of animal origin come from. UCD has been acquiring greyhounds for this purpose for decades, and for these few dozen animals, they serve a useful purpose.

It would be complete nonsense to use donated pets as most of them are inbred monsters with grossly distorted faces and limbs, and usually riddled with disease by the time they're euthanased. What help is that to students in learning to recognise a normal liver or kidney?

But hey, why get in a stress about people having mutant King Charles Spaniels or prolonging the suffering of their darling decrepit Dachshund because they can't bear to make a humane decision to put it to sleep, when one can whine about something one knows nothing about while chomping on a factory-reared-chicken sandwich.

hju6

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no "mystery" involved here - just naïve city-dwellers who prefer not know where their consumer-products of animal origin come from. UCD has been acquiring greyhounds for this purpose for decades, and for these few dozen animals, they serve a useful purpose.

It would be complete nonsense to use donated pets as most of them are inbred monsters with grossly distorted faces and limbs, and usually riddled with disease by the time they're euthanased. What help is that to students in learning to recognise a normal liver or kidney?

But hey, why get in a stress about people having mutant King Charles Spaniels or prolonging the suffering of their darling decrepit Dachshund because they can't bear to make a humane decision to put it to sleep, when one can whine about something one knows nothing about while chomping on a factory-reared-chicken sandwich.

It would be "a complete nonsense to use donated pets"

So vets never work on pets then? Or do they only work on healthy greyhounds?

Kiltennel

hju6 wrote: »

It would be "a complete nonsense to use donated pets"

So vets never work on pets then? Or do they only work on healthy greyhounds?

Donated pets will result in an entire class of Vet students using different breeds. If they use a cadaver of the same breed across the class, it allows the lecturer to focus on one particular breed in front of the students instead of having 1 group dissecting a young Labrador hit by a car, another group dissecting an elderly Poodle, and another group dissecting a Boxer which died of cancer etc.

An Ri rua

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's no "mystery" involved here - just naïve city-dwellers who prefer not know where their consumer-products of animal origin come from. UCD has been acquiring greyhounds for this purpose for decades, and for these few dozen animals, they serve a useful purpose.

It would be complete nonsense to use donated pets as most of them are inbred monsters with grossly distorted faces and limbs, and usually riddled with disease by the time they're euthanased. What help is that to students in learning to recognise a normal liver or kidney?

But hey, why get in a stress about people having mutant King Charles Spaniels or prolonging the suffering of their darling decrepit Dachshund because they can't bear to make a humane decision to put it to sleep, when one can whine about something one knows nothing about while chomping on a factory-reared-chicken sandwich.

Are you well? I'm a vegan, and reared calves and lambs before school when I was a kid. And you? An amateur profiler or psychic perhaps? I would think that most students and alumni would be unaware of this issue. Blissfully perhaps, but still unaware. This allows some light in so that people can discuss it. Is that ok?

CelticRambler

An Ri rua wrote: »

Are you well? I'm a vegan, and reared calves and lambs before school when I was a kid. And you? An amateur profiler or psychic perhaps? I would think that most students and alumni would be unaware of this issue. Blissfully perhaps, but still unaware. This allows some light in so that people can discuss it. Is that ok?

I am quite well, thank you for asking, and no, I'm not an amateur profiler or psychic.

So what exactly is it that you want to discuss - the fact that UCD makes good use of 3% of the annual "obsolete" greyhound population to ensure that UCD vet students have a high standard of training (remember that UCD vet students are amongst the very few that automatically qualify to work in the US aswell as the EU) ... or that 97% of British racing greyhounds don't die of old age - which has nothing to do with UCD?

adamski8

Yeah it would much better that vets aren't trained properly on appropriate specimens and then when they have completed their veterinary course, where they never touch or preferably see an animal in real life, they are let loose to work on farms and peoples pets not knowing what they are doing!

FFS there are more dogs thrown on bonfires this time of year. These dogs were being put down anyway.

errlloyd

OP is a Vegan so fair enough to be outraged I guess.

Anyone who is happy to eat beef shouldn't really be bothered by this, and I take a little bit of annoyance from people who value animals based on how cuddly they are. (The classic, Cows and Chickens are boring, but dogs are cute, I'd never eat a dog).

Dog racing in general is a pretty cruel sport I think, so I imagine this is one of the less cruel and generally more useful things that happens to racing dogs.

Wisco

Hate to break it to the OP, but loads of greyhounds are euthanised for no reason other than not being fast enough or having minor ( non life threatening)injuries that make them unfit for racing.
At least these greyhounds are euthanised humanely and treated with respect by the students who learn from them. I say that as a vet student who is extremely grateful for this resource- it's an invaluable learning aid and I can't imagine being asked to perform surgery without good working, practical, knowledge of anatomy.
On a practical learning note, greyhounds are good teaching tools because their anatomical structures are often easy to see and there are no breed variations to confuse things.
I can see where this may be shocking to someone of a non vet or agriculture background, but it really isn't as bad as it may seem to the general public.

OpenYourEyes

Completely agree that this is as you'd expect, and as long as the animals are treated and put down humanely, then they serve a very valuable purpose in teaching the next generation of vets that can go on to look after pets and livestock for years to come. Nothing surprising here.

CelticRambler wrote: »

It would be complete nonsense to use donated pets as most of them are inbred monsters

While I agree that a lot of dogs nowadays are inbred monsters, I'm pretty sure greyhounds, especially those used for racing, aren't any different.......

An Ri rua

Wisco wrote: »

Hate to break it to the OP, but loads of greyhounds are euthanised for no reason other than not being fast enough or having minor ( non life threatening)injuries that make them unfit for racing.
At least these greyhounds are euthanised humanely and treated with respect by the students who learn from them. I say that as a vet student who is extremely grateful for this resource- it's an invaluable learning aid and I can't imagine being asked to perform surgery without good working, practical, knowledge of anatomy.
On a practical learning note, greyhounds are good teaching tools because their anatomical structures are often easy to see and there are no breed variations to confuse things.
I can see where this may be shocking to someone of a non vet or agriculture background, but it really isn't as bad as it may seem to the general public.

Hate to break it to @Wisco, but a slower read would have revealed that I am of an agricultural background. I am well aware of animals being euthanised,e.g dog pounds. I DON'T AGREE with it. Medical students must make do with donated cadavers; animal medical students should do similar. I know they treat them with respect, but they should NOT take their lives. it must be planned better. Its a University for God's sake. get their smarts on and put a programme in place. They WILL get donated dead animals, if its sold correctly.

OpenYourEyes

Jesus Ri Rua - of course medical students must wait for donated cadavers, I think the argument here is where you draw the line between human life and a dogs life - for you the two are much closer in value than for many of the rest of us it would seem.

Unfortunately there often isn't the money, resources or will to house unwanted dogs (pets or racing dogs) until they die of old age. For me, finding them a loving owner would be preferable, but I can see how humanely putting them down is also a viable option that shouldn't be ruled out. That those dogs can go on to serve a role in helping to train the next generation of vets is a valuable silver lining to that option.

CelticRambler

An Ri rua wrote: »

Medical students must make do with donated cadavers; animal medical students should do similar. I know they treat them with respect, but they should NOT take their lives. it must be planned better. Its a University for God's sake. get their smarts on and put a programme in place. They WILL get donated dead animals, if its sold correctly.

The vet college does get donated dead animals - they use them for teaching pathology in years three to five, but before you can understand what's wrong you need to know what's right, and that's done in years one and two.

In a typical year, 1000 racing greyhounds are going to be killed no matter what. 970 are going to be turned into fertiliser. What exactly is your problem with UCD making better use of the remaining 30?

ganmo

Op you are equating humans to dogs...
We are both animals but are not the same. We humans are capable of compassion and sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to put an animal down.

When op goes to a vet for treatment I'll put more weight in their objections

Magenta

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Completely agree that this is as you'd expect, and as long as the animals are treated and put down humanely, then they serve a very valuable purpose in teaching the next generation of vets that can go on to look after pets and livestock for years to come. Nothing surprising here.

Completely agree. These greyhounds are getting a better death than a lot of dogs. They're not in pain, badly injured by a car or riddled with cancer when they die. The fact of the matter is, they have to go somewhere. They would be far, far worse off on a boat to Spain, where they will be treated far worse than they are allowed to be here.

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

While I agree that a lot of dogs nowadays are inbred monsters, I'm pretty sure greyhounds, especially those used for racing, aren't any different.......

Greyhounds are actually one of the healthiest breeds (and ironically, one of the oldest). The reason being they are bred for what they can do, with 0 regard to their looks (read- no mutated cartoon pug noses or bulging eyes). They also are generally kept and bred by people who know what they are doing, not by Jimmy down the road who thought he'd mix a Chihuahua with a Yorkie and try and make a quick buck from the offspring.
The result- because greyhounds are generally very healthy, they are good specimens for vet students to know how dogs should look on the inside.

omicron

Magenta wrote: »

Greyhounds are actually one of the healthiest breeds (and ironically, one of the oldest). The reason being they are bred for what they can do, with 0 regard to their looks (read- no mutated cartoon pug noses or bulging eyes). They also are generally kept and bred by people who know what they are doing, not by Jimmy down the road who thought he'd mix a Chihuahua with a Yorkie and try and make a quick buck from the offspring.
The result- because greyhounds are generally very healthy, they are good specimens for vet students to know how dogs should look on the inside.

Also they have extremely low levels of body fat which makes it much easier to examine them internally compared to say a labrador, where you can struggle to find muscles etc beneath inches of fat!

Kovu

The sorry fact is that greyhounds are seen as a business by most (if not almost all) of their breeders. If the animals aren't winning races they'll be disposed of and this is why greyhounds are possibly the most abused breed in Ireland.
Just last week, this was in the news about greyhounds dying en route to France, those dogs must have suffered immensely before dying. Even a quick google search will show just how many dogs show up with their ears cut off to remove the ID tattoos or simply locked away and neglected after their racing days are over.
I'd much prefer to see greyhounds (and any other animal for that matter) being PTS humanely instead of dying a cruel and horrific death.

James esq

Hate to break the news to you but tens of thousands of pigs, sheep and cows are not only euthanised, but disected and then consumed in Ireland every year and money changes hands, everybody in the country is at it except the hundred and fifty five vegans.
No one from the smurfit school of business has ever said anything about this... the reason is it is normal behaviour, and it is ok for a vet school to look into animals.

marienbad

OP, have you nothing better to be doing ? What do you think happens if they are not bought ?

Magenta

I think what it comes down to, is that some people (not necessarily the OP) think that death is the worst possible outcome for an animal. It isn't.

I have seen cruelty cases where so called "dog rescues" were convicted of animal cruelty after leaving dogs to starve to death laying in their own faeces.
I was genuinely shocked at how many people defended the "rescue" owners because "those dogs would have been put to sleep in the pound if the rescue didn't take them".

An Ri rua

ganmo wrote: »

Op you are equating humans to dogs...
We are both animals but are not the same. We humans are capable of compassion and sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is to put an animal down.

Agreeable statement.

When op goes to a vet for treatment I'll put more weight in their objections

Bizarre.

Arbiter of Good Taste

An Ri rua wrote: »

Bizarre.

How is that post more bizarre than you stating that since medical students don't use euthanized cadavers, that veterinary students should do the same?

The fact is, dogs are not humans.

Raphael

Play nice, folks. This is an interesting topic that is worth discussing, but if people aren't willing to actually engage in discussion then I'll be locking this thread.

Kiltennel

OP this isn't an ethical issue for UCD, it's an ethical issue for the greyhound racing industry as a whole. As said, when a dog is injured or simply not race worthy it'll in most cases be put down to avoid the burden and financial cost it puts on the trainer.

As a result UCD purchases this relatively steady stream of cadavers which provide a good consistent specimen for the vet students to learn from. If you want well trained vets you need consistency in their curriculum and specimens which are relatively straightforward to dissect before moving onto more complex cases i.e. elderly pet dogs which have died of various natural causes and have differing anatomical characteristics.

pogmobhud

CelticRambler wrote: »

In a typical year, 1000 racing greyhounds are going to be killed no matter what. 970 are going to be turned into fertiliser. What exactly is your problem with UCD making better use of the remaining 30?

I don't think the issue is using the 30, it's very much to do with the processes with which they are acquired. Dealing with dead animals and humans are both sensitive and delicate matters; everything has to be above board.