Ahem.... Thinking about investing in a Stihl saw.... Sniff.

BreadnBuddha

I'm a firm believer in dealing with bricks and mortar shops when they're competitive and helpful. There isn't a Husky dealer close-by, but the local Stihl reseller is very knowledgeable and helpful. I'd like to spend my money there in the late spring, as I'm looking into a saw that'll run a 20-24" bar and chain for milling some Spruce, Alder, Birch and Yew. The saw will be used with a Granberg Alaskan Mill, so the bar will need to be a bit longer than my usual 14-16" as used on our Husky 242XPG. The wood that's milled will be used later for furniture making and depending on what turns up during milling, some might be supplied to a luthier for making soundboards for some string instruments if it's up to his needs.

I'm not getting into a Husky vs Stihl thing. With a large enough investment (for us!) under consideration, I want to have easy access to an approved reseller if I've any problems, so that pretty much steers me directly to a Stihl model. OldTree will be delighted no doubt.

I'm figuring something up around 80cc or more will be needed to comfortably mill what I'm looking at and give long service life. Can anyone help me figure out which saws in the Stihl range would be equivalent of something like the Husky 395XP or similar? It has to be a new model saw and it needs to be a professional grade saw, not a rancher/homesteader type. The budget will be about 800 plus bar and chain. The mill is already purchased.

In time the saw may be replaced with a portable bandsaw mill but a chainsaw mill is the only practical starting point for now due to budget and the location of some of much of this wood.

Reindeer

The Stilhl 661 is out and is a strong runner.

kay 9

A 461 is a great saw and will be fine for milling up to 24 I should think. 661 would be the ideal but £££

Kevin McCloud

Only €50 dfference between the 461 and 661, €950 for 461 and €1000 for 661.

18MonthsaSlave

Pause for a moment; 1000 euro is absolutely obscene for a very simple single cylinder two stroke engine.
There aren't anywhere near the same level of sunk development costs as might be found in a smartphone to explain the price.
That doesn't solve the OPs problem but it really needs to be said.

BreadnBuddha

It doesn't need to be said at all. If you think a modern 80cc-120cc saw is just a simple and unrefined 2 stroke oil burner, you'd be better sticking with your smart phones and irrelevant analogies and bringing them to someone who cares what you have to say on the matter. I don't.

Don't derail the thread or turn this into a discussion about the merits of this, that and the other. If you have a specific opinion on the most suitable Stihl saw currently available to do the job I want, with very specific requirements detailed already by me, please offer it.

Otherwise, off you go. I don't mean to be rude, but I was specific in my OP to avoid any of that kind of nonsense or this turning into an 'are you mad' kind of thing. I'm not looking to cut firewood in the yard. I have a clearly identified requirement. When that's the case, you focus your attention on the thing to do the job best, not the cheapest, not the most generic.

I'm being nice by explaining this so you understand that I'm not interested in anything other than an answer to the question I've asked.

18MonthsaSlave

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It doesn't need to be said at all. If you think a modern 80cc-120cc saw is just a simple and unrefined 2 stroke oil burner, you'd be better sticking with your smart phones and irrelevant analogies and bringing them to someone who cares what you have to say on the matter. I don't.

Don't derail the thread or turn this into a discussion about the merits of this, that and the other. If you have a specific opinion on the most suitable Stihl saw currently available to do the job I want, with very specific requirements detailed already by me, please offer it.

Otherwise, off you go. I don't mean to be rude, but I was specific in my OP to avoid any of that kind of nonsense or this turning into an 'are you mad' kind of thing. I'm not looking to cut firewood in the yard. I have a clearly identified requirement. When that's the case, you focus your attention on the thing to do the job best, not the cheapest, not the most generic.

I'm being nice by explaining this so you understand that I'm not interested in anything other than an answer to the question I've asked.

I've been around saws all my life. I've seen more saws then you've seen hot dinners.

I called two-stroke engines simple, not un-refined. A quality big bore chainsaw from 40 years ago is a better saw than one built now although the big plus 80cc saws from today are the least cost-compromised saws you'll find for sale these days.

Think out of the box and look at a large Solo or Japanese metal but as Husqvarna and Stihl occupy an oligopoly position in the market these other smaller quality manufacturers track the main players. If you are determined to have a Husky or Stihl then walk in to your local dealer, put your money down.

BTW you are setting yourself up to be disappointed. You may buy off a dealer but you'll be pretty pissed off when you discover that the dealer can't source parts off the distributor in a short period of time.
My experience of both distributors in Ireland is that they are quite unprofessional and are the weak link in the chain. You might be buying a quality product and have a wizard Dealer but the Distributors let the show down.
Distributors can and have left Dealers waiting months for parts for pro-spec saws. It's inexcusable for consumer product and absolutely unforgivable for Pro Product.
If you need guaranteed uptime then source yourself a second backup saw.

I've now given you more useful advice than you deserve. Bye.

ford2600

€1000 for a saw that will last years and years of professional use with a little care isn't expensive imho

18MonthsaSlave

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Now what if I told you that with the jiggery-pokery magic of the internet that I live outside Ireland?

Snap! So do I.

I'm surprised you need to ask for advice since you seem to know so much.

Now go to your dealer and ask him how long it would take to deliver a crankshaft or chain brake band for the saw you are interested in. Ask him for a price on the crankshaft if you want some snots and giggles.

Chainsaw manufacturers don't do Supply Chain Management very well. The only Manufacturers in the horticultural area I saw who had proper supply chain management are Briggs & Stratton, Honda and Yamaha(when they were trying to break in)

These saws are marketed like the Miele of the market but fall down on parts availability.

I think it is so foolish not to be considering how to handle unexpected downtime if the saw is your bread and butter but go ahead since you claim to know better than me even if you are asking on an Irish forum with limited audience where saws over 65cc are a rarity because what little deciduous wood is left won't be felled unless absolutely necessary.

18MonthsaSlave

ford2600 wrote: »

€1000 for a saw that will last years and years of professional use with a little care isn't expensive imho

A ford transit van with no reliable parts supply would not be a sound investment.

BreadnBuddha

I'm asking the lads here because plenty of them have practical experience everywhere from my current neck of the woods to the pacific coast states in North America. I know there's a large Stihl userbase here. The key is 'user' here. You used to flog gardening tools. That's the extent of your experience. You're no expert and I don't care for your advice. Telling me to think outside the box and then a crapload of waffle. Can you read, or just pontificate?

I picked my brand for this purchase for good reasons. I set my budget. I explained what I want to do. I asked for specific recommendations from that one manufacturers range. Believe it or not, I actually have an idea what kind of saw I want and why. I'm just not familiar with the Stihl range.

I live in Scandinavia. Access to pro-grade Stihl and Husky parts is a next day affair here at worst case so stop banging on about how much a crank will cost or a this or a that will take to order. After all that horse crap, can we get back to my bloody question or do you need another chance to try to appear useful here?

You can go on now if you want but I'm done wasting my time on you. I came here for clear cut advice and input from lads who know the answers I'm looking for.

18MonthsaSlave

To whom do dealers sell?
Pro-users have discovered that the best policy is to always have a plan-B, be it a retired saw they pull out in case of emergency or knowledge of where they can get a loaner or buying a big bar and chain for a smaller saw to get them out of a pinch. What is your plan-B?
As you have outlined clearly in your OP you are unwittingly painting yourself in to a corner and you acknowledge that your chosen solution is sub-optimal before I even pointed out to you that sourcing parts will be problematic and yes sourcing parts for big saws is always problematic.
When they come in the door for repair they are the ones a dealer will wonder if he has the right part in stock for. Pro-saws break all the time because they are in use.
You are too busy salivating over your new saw to actually plan your actual requirement which is a solution that allows you to consistently get work done.

Oldtree

OP, my 044 is still going, but it's not had heavy usage, 026 running like a dream with medium usage. Its dead easy to get parts locally or online, even here in the west of Ireland, but I havn't really had any down time as have the 2 saws and always keep a few spare parts handy, pipes etc. I have no knowledge of the more recent saws, is there any way you can try them out before you buy to make sure they suit your needs? For example the 044 is very heavy and sucks fuel/oil compared to the 026, but the 044 is needed for the larger/harder wood. (I have a shorter bar on the 044 for added oomph too)

BreadnBuddha

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

To whom do dealers sell?
Pro-users have discovered that the best policy is to always have a plan-B, be it a retired saw they pull out in case of emergency or knowledge of where they can get a loaner or buying a big bar and chain for a smaller saw to get them out of a pinch. What is your plan-B?

I'm not a pro user. If it stops working, it stops working. I get it repaired and get back to using it whenever that happens to be.

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

As you have outlined clearly in your OP you are unwittingly painting yourself in to a corner and you acknowledge that your chosen solution is sub-optimal before I even pointed out to you that sourcing parts will be problematic and yes sourcing parts for big saws is always problematic.
When they come in the door for repair they are the ones a dealer will wonder if he has the right part in stock for. Pro-saws break all the time because they are in use.

Sub-optimal solution? Hardly. I think you're making too many assumptions about things you don't understand. You don't need to either, if you'd only stop trying to both ask and answer questions that are completely irrelevant.

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

You are too busy salivating over your new saw to actually plan your actual requirement which is a solution that allows you to consistently get work done.

Nope. Again, consistently getting work done is not a pre-requisite. I buy new tools as I want them to last a long time and to know that they've only been in my care and haven't suffered abuse in someone elses hands.

A portable bandsaw would be nice down the line, but to do it the way I want will require an investment of three times the price of a large-ish pro grade Stihl.

Anyway, you're completely derailing this thread. It's a shame to see it, as you're not proving anything here except your arrogance.

18MonthsaSlave

Do what you please. If a dealer actually tried to help you source the right product you'd find another dealer who'd sell you what want. Good luck with your choices as you'll have to live with them.

BreadnBuddha

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Do what you please. If a dealer actually tried to help you source the right product you'd find another dealer who'd sell you what want. Good luck with your choices as you'll have to live with them.

Thanks for your time and your input. Appreciate the sentiments and all that, just misplaced on your part. Don't worry, I won't be back to say you should have argued harder if it doesn't work out the way I want. I promise. :P

greysides

[mod] ENOUGH!!

18Monthsa Slave, you said you were ceasing posting in this thread. Thanks, now please honour it.
BreadnBuddha, you're not blameless either but thank you for deleting that post of yours.

Time to get the thread back on track..... [/mod]

kay 9

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Only €50 dfference between the 461 and 661, €950 for 461 and €1000 for 661.

In that case, by all means go for the 661. :d

timfromtang

Hi there,
I use an MS391 and logosol timberjig for my milling. With the thin kerf provided by the bar and chain supplied by logosol this saw is just about up to the task. It is wonderful in the softer woods larch, spruce alder etc, and acceptable in sycamore and ash, soo slow in oak and yew. I would suggest that a 440, or 660 would be lovely for the job and intend to invest in a bit more horsepower when i can. Sawmilling is full throttle HARD work on your saw, I'd suggest using the thinnest bar and chain you can fit on your saw, with the best quality chain oil you can find.
Also concerning chainsaw milling, a very fine surface finish can be achieved if the chain is kept razor sharp, as soon as it stops being razor sharp, a minute or two with a file will reward you in saved fuel and time and superior finish on your planks. Rip chains should be filed at 10 deg rather than the more usual 30 or so for cross cutting.
best of luck with finding a suitable saw
timfromtang

Kevin McCloud

kay 9 wrote: »

In that case, by all means go for the 661. :d

Definitely for the extra power.

BreadnBuddha

timfromtang wrote: »

Hi there,
I use an MS391 and logosol timberjig for my milling. With the thin kerf provided by the bar and chain supplied by logosol this saw is just about up to the task. It is wonderful in the softer woods larch, spruce alder etc, and acceptable in sycamore and ash, soo slow in oak and yew. I would suggest that a 440, or 660 would be lovely for the job and intend to invest in a bit more horsepower when i can. Sawmilling is full throttle HARD work on your saw, I'd suggest using the thinnest bar and chain you can fit on your saw, with the best quality chain oil you can find.
Also concerning chainsaw milling, a very fine surface finish can be achieved if the chain is kept razor sharp, as soon as it stops being razor sharp, a minute or two with a file will reward you in saved fuel and time and superior finish on your planks. Rip chains should be filed at 10 deg rather than the more usual 30 or so for cross cutting.
best of luck with finding a suitable saw
timfromtang

Solid input Tim. Thank you.

Oldtree, I'll have to have a chat with the dealer and see if I can get hands on with something to make sure it's what I want.

Thanks for the pointers on saw models to other posters. Just what I wanted. There are a few models coming up often in your replies so that's where I'll look first.

Kevin McCloud

Im not trying to stir the pot or create any animosity with this post, in relation to the 391 its a good saw one of stihls mid range saws, one of my saws broke down and borrowed my old fellas 390 which is essentially the same as the 391.
I was working it hard burning tank after tank on a beach tree with the 20 inch bar buried and at the end of the day the crankcase where the top of the bucking spike is got a good melting.
Never noticed it any time i went refuelling or while cutting. So back to the op would a mid range saw cut the mustard?

Reindeer

Oldtree wrote: »

OP, my 044 is still going, but it's not had heavy usage, 026 running like a dream with medium usage. Its dead easy to get parts locally or online, even here in the west of Ireland, but I havn't really had any down time as have the 2 saws and always keep a few spare parts handy, pipes etc. I have no knowledge of the more recent saws, is there any way you can try them out before you buy to make sure they suit your needs? For example the 044 is very heavy and sucks fuel/oil compared to the 026, but the 044 is needed for the larger/harder wood. (I have a shorter bar on the 044 for added oomph too)

Milling is about the toughest thing you can do to with a chainsaw, especially hardwoods. You want as much saw as you can manage and afford if milling. I absolutely hate milling with a chainsaw, but have to make do on occasion. The 661, and even a 461, will take the heat better than a smaller saw, especially one with a plastic chassis, it will have a longer lasting and higher output oiler - which is extremely important with milling, and even in Ireland the parts are easily sourced, if not cheap.

1K for a 661 is a bargain. Make sure to richen it up for milling as there will be far more heat than general felling and bucking. I would also run a minimum of 40:1 mix ratio, if not 32:1. Clean the filter often, and consider investing in Stihls HD filter set up with the extra element that goes around the wire mesh filter to help keep the fines out.

Farmer

As a farmer who mainly uses a chainsaw for an odd bit of firewood or tidying a hedge, can I enquire why one would bother milling with a chainsaw. Looking at the clips on youtube, it looks like hard work for both man, fuel and saw, something that you'd do out in the wilderness but not in reach of a sawmill or tractor driven saw. Am I reading it wrong? Does the correct chain make a big difference? Does it make sense economically or is it just something you do in small lots when stuck for a few boards?

BreadnBuddha

Firstly, thanks for the input on the 661 Reindeer.

Kevin, thanks also, but I think I'll aim for the pro grade saw from the start. Buy right, buy once etc.

Farmer, I can only say what my needs are. I live about 500kms away from the old farm and surrounding forestry where I'll be using the saw for milling. While there's a circular mill about 30km away from the farm, the single circular saw is ancient, condition is questionable and there's no handling equipment there for loading logs. At a guess I'd think it's around 60 year old machinery and uses an old Volvo diesel to run the saw. Too many obstacles there for an impromptu session during a weekend visit and too many eggs in one basket to load the logging trailer and draw it to the saw with a 45 year old tractor only to find something breaks down or just never works in the first place.

The quantity isn't very much in terms of linear meters or volume to be processed each year as it'll come mainly from second thinnings and some full harvest trees that aren't quite up to standard for higher value sales to the nearest commercial mill, which is about 80kms away. The harvesting contractor will load out whatever I want to mill and stack it by the barn and I can just set up the alaskan mill and work away until I've had enough and want to pack up until the next time. Anything that's milled can go straight into the barn where it will be safe and dry until it's needed. From the house to the woodsheds, barn, tractor shed, everything is wood so a good stock onsite is certainly going to be used. One of the walls of the barn needs to be reclad next year and the house needs new steps and some of the siding replaced soon enough.

I know a bandsaw is probably the better choice but there are too many other things that come into play looking at that option. Powering it, storing it, transporting it, cost to set up and more. So for my occasional use, flexibility of being able to put the saw and mill in the loadbox on the tractor and work in the forest when it suits the chainsaw mill is really the best option for now. If we end up living on the farm then I can look at changing that but for now it's all that I need. Until then I can throw it all in the jeep and take it there and back when we go to spend weekends and holidays and not have to worry about it aside from that.

Oldtree

Have you seen the Woodmiser mobile/portable band saws? I always wanted one of these

http://www.woodmizer.com/us/PortableEquipment/ManualSawmills.aspx

Farmer

BreadnBuddha, Thanks for taking the time to type up such a comprehensive reply.

BreadnBuddha

How does it all end? I went to get a replacement stop switch for the 242XPG today from a husky dealer about 50 miles from me as I need it this weekend. Was treated as well as if I was spending a grand not the €15 the genuine parts switch was setting me back. They asked if I had the saw with me and they'd pop it in for me if I wanted, free. I didn't and it's not difficult to do anyway but it was nice of them to offer.

I figured I'd ask what kind of price they'd have on an 80cc husky pro saw seeing as I was standing there. Told them what the use will be. Yer man said hang on there and came out with a used but really very fresh 395XP head. Stuck a compression gauge on it and she was spot on and started fine, bit of a pig to pull over though until he smiled and pointed at the little blue button for the decompression. Still learning hah! Told me I could make him an offer on it so I did. With a new 28" Oregon bar and chain (ordered as not in stock) and a year parts and labour warranty it'll stand me €600. Ready to collect in 10 days fully serviced and with bar and chain fitted.

I couldn't turn it down at that kind of money, even if it's not new. The bar and chain would set me back over €130 all day long. Had no idea such a machine could be turned up at a dealers as thought anyone buying one would work it hard until there wasn't much life left in it.

Also he had a display 543XPG which he said he'd take €500 for, tempting but the 242's running well so I left that where it sat.

BreadnBuddha

Called and offered €450 on the 543XPG. Met in the middle on it at €475. €185 off can't be knocked. The late father in laws 242XPG can enjoy semi retirement now. Looking forward to getting that 395. Like a kid waiting on Santa. Two good saws to meet the milling and general firewood/thinning duty in the ballpark budget of the mill saw.

Reindeer

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Called and offered €450 on the 543XPG. Met in the middle on it at €475. €185 off can't be knocked. The late father in laws 242XPG can enjoy semi retirement now. Looking forward to getting that 395. Like a kid waiting on Santa. Two good saws to meet the milling and general firewood/thinning duty in the ballpark budget of the mill saw.

Let me know if that 242xp could use another home, or if you want her ported.

If you still see fines in the 395 after milling, try a thick sock cut to fit the air filter. The 395 is a great choice. It has a lot of grunt.

Is there a good source for chipper chain in Ireland?

BreadnBuddha

Reindeer wrote: »

Let me know if that 242xp could use another home, or if you want her ported.

If you still see fines in the 395 after milling, try a thick sock cut to fit the air filter. The 395 is a great choice. It has a lot of grunt.

Is there a good source for chipper chain in Ireland?

The 242 will never be let on but thanks. I'll have a better look at the filter setup on the big saw. I think there's a heavy duty filter setup on it but will keep the tip about the sock in mind.

Oldtree's probably reading this in disbelief. Sorry man, It's pure chance the husky's were such a good deal. I'll get a Stihl saw one of these days

Reindeer

Well, I went ahead and got me an MS241. She's not terribly zippy...yet, but she has a lot of grunt.

Kevin McCloud

Reindeer wrote: »

Well, I went ahead and got me an MS241. She's not terribly zippy...yet, but she has a lot of grunt.

What did you get it for if you don't mind sharing?

Reindeer

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

What did you get it for if you don't mind sharing?

Got it in a trade for porting work.

Fiskar

Reindeer wrote: »

Got it in a trade for porting work.

Hi Reindeer, keep us posted on how it works out for you. Saw your posts on the US Arb website (small world!). Am also looking to get one of these to compliment my MS 261 as want a beast with 14" bar for flying through the wood that I fell.

Kevin McCloud

Fiskar wrote: »

Am also looking to get one of these to compliment my MS 261 as want a beast with 14" bar for flying through the wood that I fell.

You could just buy a 14" bar for the 261, have a 15" on my own. What size bar have you on your 261?

Fiskar

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

You could just buy a 14" bar for the 261, have a 15" on my own. What size bar have you on your 261?

Want a 2 saw regime with the 261 on a 16" bar and a nimble 241 on the 14".

Might convert the 291 I have to a 14" but it may be heavy for that?

241 is 4.7 kg, 291 is 5.8 kg

Reindeer

Fiskar wrote: »

Hi Reindeer, keep us posted on how it works out for you. Saw your posts on the US Arb website (small world!). Am also looking to get one of these to compliment my MS 261 as want a beast with 14" bar for flying through the wood that I fell.

I'm gonna mod the muffler tomorrow and reset the electronics on it. I'll try and do a before and after. If I don't get the grunt I want - she'll be ported. Having said that, the tree where I work are usually far too large for a 42cc saw. Most of the work here for the saw is small firewood bucking or Rhodo. So, I imagine a simple MM will do the trick.

Kevin McCloud

Reindeer wrote: »

I'm gonna mod the muffler tomorrow and reset the electronics on it.

Will the Mtronic be able to tune itself ok to the mm?

Reindeer

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Will the Mtronic be able to tune itself ok to the mm?

Yeah. I was told the reset is:

Idle on full choke for 90 seconds - off.
Idle on normal for 90 seconds - off.
Start it again and make 5 cuts in a good size(for the saws displacement) piece of wood so it has time to think about it in the cut.
Should be sorted...or so I am told...

The muffler outlet on this 241 isn't much larger than the size of a 1 cent coin. How it runs as strong as it does is amazing as it is.

Kevin McCloud

Would it have the power of a stihl 260 after the mm do you think?

Reindeer

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

Would it have the power of a stihl 260 after the mm do you think?

I haven't ran a 260 in years, so it would be difficult to say. All I can say is I feel it has a lot of torque for a 42cc saw right now, but it certainly doesn't feel like a good buzzy limbing saw like the 242/42 huskies do. When I am done with the MM and if the retune sticks, I'll make a vid and you can decide. I am told the throttle response greatly improves and it becomes a better saw for limb work.

Kevin McCloud

The 260 would be the same weight as the 241 but more power both in stock form. Never understood the reason for producing the 241, if i want a quick limbing saw and i see a 241 and a 260 in front of me i am going to grab the 260.

Reindeer

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

The 260 would be the same weight as the 241 but more power both in stock form. Never understood the reason for producing the 241, if i want a quick limbing saw and i see a 241 and a 260 in front of me i am going to grab the 260.

The 260 does weigh slightly more in real life(nearly 8 ounces or so according to the actual scale weights from the US AS site), but you do have a point. And I am curious to see how the electronics last and handle in the future on the 241. All said and done, this saw basically fell in my lap. I'll do a typical mod that most pros can do(an MM) and see how she handles and get back to here about it.

Kevin McCloud

Reindeer wrote: »

The 260 does weigh slightly more in real life(nearly 8 ounces or so according to the actual scale weights from the US AS site), but you do have a point. And I am curious to see how the electronics last and handle in the future on the 241. All said and done, this saw basically fell in my lap. I'll do a typical mod that most pros can do(an MM) and see how she handles and get back to here about it.

It will surely wake it up no doubt, i have no experience in mm the mtronic or auto tune saws, was thinking are the parameters there to richen the mix for the mm?

Reindeer

Kevin McCloud wrote: »

It will surely wake it up no doubt, i have no experience in mm the mtronic or auto tune saws, was thinking are the parameters there to richen the mix for the mm?

Yeah. You just recalibrate it. They respond well to porting, too.

Reindeer

I did the mod and reset the 241. It's certainly more peppy. She winds out a bit more, too. But I think porting is in the near future.

The original port: http://m0.i.pbase.com/g9/22/22/3/158254320.ugPuOb9G.jpg

The after: http://m9.i.pbase.com/g9/22/22/3/158254319.Wm1VScNK.jpg

Also added two more louvred ports to the other side of the muffler. Not too loud, though. I didn't do anything to the interior of the muffler.

This chain has seen better days, but it's all I had for the vid. Her she is in surprisingly hard well-seasoned Larch(You can see the other ports if ya look closely):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOrynYinTIo&feature=youtu.be