Landlord refuses to pay my deposit back

jays14

Hi all,

My life was good until two days ago but now it turned upside down.

We have been living in a house for the past 1 year and 5 months and we paid 1000 euros deposit when we occupied the house . After one year( in june 2014) we made a second tenancy agreement with the landlord( Mod Snip) which is valid until may 2015. Within 15 days after the second tenancy agreement another company took over the house (Mod Snip ) and the new company sent us a letter saying that they are the new landlord and the rent should be lodged into their bank account from 1st of july .

We have been paying rent to the new ll from july 14 to october 14 , yesterday we received a notice saying that they intend to sell the property so we should vacate the house in 28 days which was shocking but we understand that the landlord has the right to terminate the tenancy as they intend to sell.

But what's more shocking is the landlord saying that they are not responsible for the deposit as we didn't pay the deposit money to them and asking us to contact the previous company but the previous company sold all their properties to the new ll and went out of business 4 months ago , we have no idea where they are now ...

we are all students studying in Dublin cannot let 1000 euros go just like that and we need money to pay deposit for the new house ...

We would really appreciate if anyone can suggest us what we can do ... Thanks in advance !!!

apeking

Was there a receiver appointed to the company?

From googling [mod snip] it looks like a receiver was appointed in 2012.

drumswan

Relax.

You have a fixed term tenancy until May 2015, you cannot be evicted. You will have a Part 4 tenancy at that point, they can serve you with the correct notice then if they like (which is 56 days).

Write back to the Agent informing them of same.

You can refer to the site below - see 'Fixed term tenancies"

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

Nice of them to make you aware that they wont be returning your deposit so early. Plenty of time to get on to Threshold for advice, refer this to the PRTB and report the agent to the PSRB.

http://www.threshold.ie/
http://www.prtb.ie/
http://www.psr.ie/

apeking

Unless there was a specific provision in the fixed term contract that allowed the landlord to break the lease for a sale

drumswan

apeking wrote: »

Unless there was a specific provision in the fixed term contract that allowed the landlord to break the lease for a sale

True. OP you'll need to have a read of your lease to check that.

TimeToShine

Have you paid the last month's rent yet?

Eldarion

OP you might want to take the company names out of your post.

Sounds like you're gonna be caught out here unfortunately. Technically the old company does have your deposit, and if they have gone bankrupt then technically you should have to write off your deposit as bad debt.

But definitely contact Threshold for advice on this one.

Mick Murdock

If you cannot afford to lose €250 a piece I'd be stiffing them on a €1000 in rent.

jays14

Thanks for the quick replies guys ... The Memorandum of agreement for my house doesn't talk anything about the landlord terminating the tenancy it only says tenant should inform landlord in one months notice if he/she wishes to terminate but even-though we haven't found a new house I don't want to stand against my landlord's intention to sell the house ..

@drumswan : No they didn't make me aware that I wouldn't get the deposit amount in the notice , they only told me when I rang them and asked them about the deposit .

@timetoshine yes we always pay the rent on time ... Never received any warning or penalty for delaying rent payment ... My next rent will be due on 1st nov and we have to vacate the house on 21 nov , my contract says " tenant shall not be entitled to use the security deposit as the final months rent " .. But I am thinking to not to pay rent for 21 days ( which is still less than the deposit amount )as they are not going to give my deposit ....

I have been paying rent to the [agent] for the last 4 months and dey are saying they are not responsible for the deposit which is frustrating ... So I asked them " did you let us live in ur property without securing any deposit from us or previous company " and they said " yes we did "

percy212

No more rent money for them. End of story.

SetOverSet

OP, drumswan is correct. The landlord cannot take possession of the property before the end of the lease, except by agreement. From the PRTB website:

"For tenants, this means that a landlord is prevented from breaching the lease in circumstances where they are trying to sell the house or move back in themselves. The landlord will have to wait until the end of the lease before taking possession of the house again."


Source:
http://prtb.ie/news/article/2014/02/11/breaking-a-fixed-term-lease

jays14

@setoverset thanks for the reply and I really want to know how can I get my deposit money back when I vacate .... Is there any law which says the current owner is responsible for the deposit money as they are the ones who is receiving the rent every month and knew about the deposit ( 1000 euro deposit is mentioned on my agreement ) when they bought the house

Mick Murdock

Inform them by email that you will not be leaving until the €1000 is returned to you. You have a lot more power than they do in this scenario.

Rob Thomas

Plenty of good well informed advice here.

Can I ask, just on the deposit end of it. Is the general understanding here that the deposit is gone as an unsecured debt owed by the previous company? Is there any way that the new company should be liable having taken over a lease so quickly?

Seems an unfair system if the landlord can change so easily and the tenant might not fully be aware of what they are losing. And if it is the case, by extension, would the new company not have been looking for a new deposit if they were taking responsibility for the lease, given that the deposit is supposed to be the landlords security?

drumswan

Dont go anywhere.

You could just not pay the last months rent and tell them to use the deposit for it. That would technically be illegal, but thats renting in Ireland - stiff them before they stiff you.

jays14

Rob Thomas wrote: »

would the new company not have been looking for a new deposit if they were taking responsibility for the lease, given that the deposit is supposed to be the landlords security?

Exactly rob , when the new company took over they just sent us a letter saying that they are the new owner and their bank details to deposit the rent ... They didn't say anything about the deposit and they didn't ask for any.

salamanca22

Here is what I would do in this scenario.

First I would let the letting agent know that I would not be leaving the property until the lease was completed in may. I would then tell them that I would be seeking counsel from both threshold and the PRTB and starting procedures to make sure the deposit was returned in full.

I would also give them the option of a 90 day period whereby I would leave the property if I found another location to live that suited me and during those 90 days the rent would be halved. I would also look for a guarantee in writing that the deposit will be returned to me.

Best of luck with it OP.

GreenwayM

Here here . . . Stay exactly where you are . . . It's them that have the problem not you . . .

In fact, an estate agent told met ( I am renting a one bed apartment to a tenant in Chapelizod ) that is that Tenant stopped paying rent that there is NOTHING I can do!

Here's how it works:

My tenant stops paying me - I have to contact the PRTB.

The PRTB contacts the Tenant and the PRTB will attempt to Arbitrate between us. ..

Waiting list for this, at the moment, is 4-6 Months and I CANNOT EMBARK ON LEGAL ROUTE until this process is complete.

Once this process is complete, the tenant can tell me and the PRTB - "I have no problem moving out but I have nowhere to go" . . . i.e. I have to stay where I am for the moment . . . .

I head for Court ( costly ) and within another 4-6 Months I secure a court Order against my tenant as well as a Judgement for Back Rent and Costs . . .

Great . . 12 Months down the line my Tenant moves out - but now I have a problem - WHAT ADDRESS DO I USE FOR THE COURT ORDER or where do I even find them.

There appears to be pretty major holes here in the system and the Estate Agent will know this . . . and will be shaking in their boots in case you "put it up to them" . . .!!!!!!

Stay where you are and keep us informed!

SetOverSet

jays14 wrote: »

@setoverset thanks for the reply and I really want to know how can I get my deposit money back when I vacate .... Is there any law which says the current owner is responsible for the deposit money as they are the ones who is receiving the rent every month and knew about the deposit ( 1000 euro deposit is mentioned on my agreement ) when they bought the house

Not as far as I am aware; unless you could show that the previous landlords, now in receivership, actually passed the deposit on to the current landlord, which is unlikely. Someone more knowledgeable may know the definitive answer, but I suspect you have little chance of getting the deposit back.

You could always try negotiating with the new landlords. They want possession of the property, but you have a fixed term lease until May 2015. So, if the return of the deposit's more important to you than staying in the property, you could suggest that you'd be prepared to consent to ending the tenancy early if they returned your deposit?

Additionally, as others have said, you could always stay in the property and withhold the final months rent in lieu of the deposit.

GreenwayM

By the way get legal advice as well . . . . I am not a legal person and there may well be holes too in the advice I am passing to you . . .

Do they have your home details etc?

punisher5112

Op all very good advice on here and honestly you are a model type for a LL to have as you I gather are looking after the property and paying on time.

Every time we have rented we have been shafted at some point so keep records of everything and do not inform them if you intend on using the last month of lease as your rent.

If there is no written record on your end saying this that is better and yes I know it's wrong using deposit but better then never getting your hard earned cash back.

You stay till end of lease as it takes months to get people out even if they don't pay rent even longer sometimes.


Also if you decide to stay on till the end of your lease do not accept a increase in rent as they had their chance at the start of lease.

Good luck.

Lemming

Everyone seems to be assuming that the sale between companies was a receivership. That's question number one and it'll give an idea of the likelihood of successfully securing the return of any deposit.

Granted, this is the UK and my desposit is held in escrow, but the place I live in was sold from original development company to a buy-to-let landlord (actually another company), so I'd not be so quick to just assume it was a receivership sale without checking.

The_Morrigan

Locked pending review.

The_Morrigan

The next person to advise using the deposit as rent for the last month is going to get a ban. This advice is a direct violation of the RTA 2004 and therefore against the charter.

shruikan2553

I thought that in the case of the property being sold the new landlord is liable to return the deposit?

jays14

Hi Morrigan , I would really appreciate if you can tell us what RTA says about my deposit issue ... The new landlord did not ask me to sign up for a new agreement or to pay the deposit when they took over , the rent amount remained the same( as stated in tenancy agreement) after the change of ownership. Does it not mean my current owner should give my deposit money when I vacate the property as stated in the tenancy agreement ?

Ronin247

I would be inclined to send the new company a letter stating that, as they are not the original Landlord, who is responsible for your deposit and with whom you have a valid and enforceable lease, you will no longer pay them any rent but you will put it in an escrow account untill such time as the original Landlord contacts you or the lease ends. I would under no circumstances leave and certainly not without my deposit. They should be paying you for having to move mid tenancy.

The_Morrigan

jays14 wrote: »

Hi Morrigan , I would really appreciate if you can tell us what RTA says about my deposit issue ... The new landlord did not ask me to sign up for a new agreement or to pay the deposit when they took over , the rent amount remained the same( as stated in tenancy agreement) after the change of ownership. Does it not mean my current owner should give my deposit money when I vacate the property as stated in the tenancy agreement ?

The RTA doesn't cover this situation as it isn't typical. You need to establish the reason for the change in landlords. Was it an assignment of the lease? Appointment of a receiver?

Do not stop paying your rent though, if you need to lodge a claim in the PRTB you'll be on the back foot for breaching your obligations.

Mick Murdock

That's helpful.

Ronin247

The_Morrigan wrote: »

The RTA doesn't cover this situation as it isn't typical. You need to establish the reason for the change in landlords. Was it an assignment of the lease? Appointment of a receiver?

Do not stop paying your rent though, if you need to lodge a claim in the PRTB you'll be on the back foot for breaching your obligations.

Would it not be the case that as the lease was with the original Landlord and the new Landlord is not honouring the terms of that lease, or giving a new lease,then the tenant cannot be required to honour it either?
The Tenant has no contract with new Landlord, who bought the property ( or however he/she ended up with it) with a sitting tenant, who has very graciously paid the rent untill now. I would speak to citizens advice or a lawyer but definitely I would pay no more rent and wouldn't move without legal advice of some form

The_Morrigan

Ronin247 wrote: »

Would it not be the case that as the lease was with the original Landlord and the new Landlord is not honouring the terms of that lease, or giving a new lease,then the tenant cannot be required to honour it either?
The Tenant has no contract with new Landlord, who bought the property ( or however he/she ended up with it) with a sitting tenant, who has very graciously paid the rent untill now. I would speak to citizens advice or a lawyer but definitely I would pay no more rent and wouldn't move without legal advice of some form

No it's not the case; we don't know the legalities of how the new landlord was put in place so we can't really comment on it. We also don't know the contents of the lease so we can't comment on that either....For all we know there is a break clause in the lease.

Mod Note Also,will you stop advising the OP to stop paying rent, it's reckless advice and likely to get the OP into serious trouble.

Mick Murdock

People do not get in serious trouble in Ireland for not paying rent. Months/Years it doesn't matter. Tenants hold all the power.

It's one thing forbidding posters from advising this it's another to suggest they will be in 'serious trouble'. OP this is untrue and don't be swayed by this legal but incorrect advice.


It will make a reference difficult and likely little else.

salamanca22

Mick Murdock wrote: »

People do not get in serious trouble in Ireland for not paying rent. Months/Years it doesn't matter. Tenants hold all the power.

It's one thing forbidding posters from advising this it's another to suggest they will be in 'serious trouble'. OP this is untrue and don't be swayed by this legal but incorrect advice.


It will make a reference difficult and likely little else.

And when the bailiffs are at the door looking for payment in a few years time? What then?

moc moc a moc

salamanca22 wrote: »

And when the bailiffs are at the door looking for payment in a few years time? What then?

Pay them then. A few years is plenty of time to save a bit.