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South East Technological University Mess

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  • 21-10-2014 10:45am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭


    Hey any opinions out there on the South East Technological University debate. It seems to be really dragging on and reading the Munster Express today the independent professor that has assessed the bid seems to be saying WIT would be better off going it alone as Carlow are so far behind from the research point of view that it could stretch out the the whole precess 5 years or longer.
    Seems to a bit of a mess to me and we should cut Carlow loose.
    Tagged:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    imacman wrote: »
    Hey any opinions out there on the South East Technological University debate. It seems to be really dragging on and reading the Munster Express today the independent professor that has assessed the bid seems to be saying WIT would be better off going it alone as Carlow are so far behind from the research point of view that it could stretch out the the whole precess 5 years or longer.
    Seems to a bit of a mess to me and we should cut Carlow loose.

    Absolutely. Just read the piece on it in the news and star; what are they at in Carlow IT?? They're lucky to be riding in on the coattails of thirty years of Waterford lobbying for a University and they have the audacity to question it being HQ'd in Waterford. Gratitude??? Not much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Meathlass


    Professor John Taylor from Liverpool University withdrew that draft report shortly after the Memo of Agreement was ratified by the two Governing Bodies. He wanted time to update it in light of recent agreements.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    imacman wrote: »
    Hey any opinions out there on the South East Technological University debate. It seems to be really dragging on and reading the Munster Express today the independent professor that has assessed the bid seems to be saying WIT would be better off going it alone as Carlow are so far behind from the research point of view that it could stretch out the the whole precess 5 years or longer.
    Seems to a bit of a mess to me and we should cut Carlow loose.

    Just research? There are many aspects such a merger.

    As a side note.
    Did you also read in the Munster Express about the abysmal mess of the IT Systems in WIT? Ongoing issues with internet connectivity, email and VLE all leading to monikers such as "Faulty Towers" and "Waterford Institute of Non-Technology"


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Even if it gets this forced through by the Government as it is political expedient there is no guarantee that it will get through the international criteria that has been set down for a technological university ( and as the way things are progressing now is you look in detail at those criteria there is no way that this proposal will succeed in the short term) .

    For an example of how things should be developing have a look at TU4Dublin.ie which is the grouping of DIT, TallaghtIT and Blanchardstown IT, they are moving forward in harmony and they state it will still a difficult road to reach the criteria.So this idea that Carlow and Waterford will magically merge and become an TU is fantasy , it would take lots of hard work and most importantly lots of buy-in and commitment from staff on the ground and that's just not there .Add to this the John Taylor report independent report which was withdrawn because of political pressure clearly shows that it merging with Carlow will slow down the process into the long term.
    And lets be clear that slow down is caused by the fact that Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the criteria set down.So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.

    Also Carlow and Waterford will have to merge as ITs before going forward to the with technological university application. So the worst case and quite possible scenario if the proposal fails or drags on indefinitely we could be left with a lame duck Institute of Technology of the south east with lots of bad blood between both campuses.These are facts you wont hear from the politicians but if this goes ahead and then goes pear shaped it could actually cause a lot of damage to the region .


  • Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Digital Society


    imacman wrote: »
    Even if it gets this forced through by the Government as it is political expedient there is no guarantee that it will get through the international criteria that has been set down for a technological university ( and as the way things are progressing now is you look in detail at those criteria there is no way that this proposal will succeed in the short term) .

    For an example of how things should be developing have a look at TU4Dublin.ie which is the grouping of DIT, TallaghtIT and Blanchardstown IT, they are moving forward in harmony and they state it will still a difficult road to reach the criteria.So this idea that Carlow and Waterford will magically merge and become an TU is fantasy , it would take lots of hard work and most importantly lots of buy-in and commitment from staff on the ground and that's just not there .Add to this the John Taylor report independent report which was withdrawn because of political pressure clearly shows that it merging with Carlow will slow down the process into the long term.
    And lets be clear that slow down is caused by the fact that Carlow have nowhere near enough PHD and masters level lecturers to proceed according to the criteria set down.So no amount of money or Political pressure will speed that up, it would be up to IT Carlow staff and as anyone knows who have studied at post-grad level it will take lots of time.

    Also Carlow and Waterford will have to merge as ITs before going forward to the with technological university application. So the worst case and quite possible scenario if the proposal fails or drags on indefinitely we could be left with a lame duck Institute of Technology of the south east with lots of bad blood between both campuses.These are facts you wont hear from the politicians but if this goes ahead and then goes pear shaped it could actually cause a lot of damage to the region .

    So are you saying WIT are actually better going alone? Or there screwed either way?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    they have the audacity to question it being HQ'd in Waterford. Gratitude??? Not much.

    They seriously think it is going to be HQ'ed in Carlow.... aww come on. Is this April fools day come early? Like the time at a dinner the Head of Carlow boasted the had the lowest spending on students per head..... Kind of like Idi Amin say didnt he do well to keep down the GDP?


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 Kenajonn


    Having attended both colleges I see no reason why they could not work together. The one major difference between the colleges was the IT systems In Carlow everything runs smoothly. In Waterford it is a joke run by people that are just waiting to be pensioned off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    In fairness to the Admins in Carlow I am willing to concede they are fairly fast at resolving problems like that. Like the server being down


  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭invara


    Kenajonn wrote: »
    Having attended both colleges I see no reason why they could not work together. The one major difference between the colleges was the IT systems In Carlow everything runs smoothly. In Waterford it is a joke run by people that are just waiting to be pensioned off.

    hello 1st time poster- I think this is a little unfair on WIT. WIT has a tiny IT budget for the scale of its operation. So the problem is more the chronic and sustained underfunding of WIT, than the work ethos of the staff in the IT support department. In the recent IT crisis, they worked really hard to solve the multiple problems at the start of the year. IT in universities is a very unforgiving environment , small problems effect everyone very quickly and almost stop the place functioning. I do not know much about Carlow, but I do know it is better funded per student than WIT (see the hea website).


  • Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭Fate Amenable To Change


    Kenajonn wrote: »
    Having attended both colleges I see no reason why they could not work together. The one major difference between the colleges was the IT systems In Carlow everything runs smoothly. In Waterford it is a joke run by people that are just waiting to be pensioned off.

    And the research... WIT has massive research ongoing...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    invara wrote: »
    I do not know much about Carlow, but I do know it is better funded per student than WIT (see the hea website).

    Rubbish. Please back up your statement with a source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Digital Society


    invara wrote: »
    hello 1st time poster- I think this is a little unfair on WIT. WIT has a tiny IT budget for the scale of its operation. So the problem is more the chronic and sustained underfunding of WIT, than the work ethos of the staff in the IT support department. In the recent IT crisis, they worked really hard to solve the multiple problems at the start of the year. IT in universities is a very unforgiving environment , small problems effect everyone very quickly and almost stop the place functioning. I do not know much about Carlow, but I do know it is better funded per student than WIT (see the hea website).

    But the Infrastructure never changes. This is the problem. They need a lot more access points and better bandwidth. Then block all torrent traffic and the network would be highly improved.

    This would cost very little for such a huge impact. They already pay several people, fully capable of fixing the network if they had the right hardware, a full wage. They just need to get the new access points and create a few Firewall rules.

    In fairness why the hell can people download torrents in the college? Throttle the torrents at least and youll take huge stress off the network.

    Also the problem is only partially the IT Departments. They should be outlining exactly whats needed and pushing hard for it. The other problem is the money.

    They could use their heads and get a 3G Company like Meteor or o2 to put a mast in the college then cut a deal with them. Fiver a month for students for 3G. 2 or 3 reliable megs is all people need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 Kenajonn


    How are students expected to learn when the IT is in such a bad state. I overheard a conversation between a lecturer and the IT department, it went like this: Lecturer: "The projector dose not work, I think the bulb has gone" IT department: "What model is it?" Lecturer: Sony 123 IT department: "We do not have the replacement bulb the model is too old, you should look on ebay" How can a department be run like that? First of all,how would a lecturer know it was the bulb? Surely they should come and investigate the problem. It is not just money the IT department is badly run until this department is shaken up, the IT infrastructure will remain a joke.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1104/656887-southeast-universtity/

    A former head of the Higher Education Authority has been appointed to lead a consultation process between Waterford and Carlow Institutes of Technology for a technological university for the southeast.

    Plans for a joint application for university status between the two institutions ran aground several weeks ago when WIT pulled out of the process.

    Former HEA chief Michael Kelly will talk to staff and students at the two institutes, as well as local social and economic interests with a view to progressing plans.

    Speaking after today's Cabinet meeting at which the matter was discussed, Minister for Education Jan O'Sullivan said two other applications for technological university status, in Dublin and in Munster, were well advanced.

    She said it was the Government's intention that the southeast should also benefit from the process.

    Ms O'Sullivan said she expected to receive a report from Mr Kelly in January.

    She also paid tribute to the chair of WIT, Dr Donie Ormonde, who will be stepping down from the position.

    Ms O'Sullivan said Dr Ormonde felt that he had brought the project as far as he could and that now was the right time for a new person to bring it to a successful conclusion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,443 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Rubbish. Please back up your statement with a source.

    To be fair, Invara is usually pretty much spot on with his/her posts that I've seen here before.

    I think they work/did work in the college one way or another.


  • Registered Users Posts: 47 Kenajonn


    The bickering needs to stop. It is very important for the south east to have a university 75% of the third level budget goes to universities. Whereas the IT's share the remaining 25%


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    callaway92 wrote: »
    To be fair, Invara is usually pretty much spot on with his/her posts that I've seen here before.

    I think they work/did work in the college one way or another.

    Still need a source for his/her claim though.

    It is my understanding that WIT have a much higher staff to student ratio.

    That certainly leans toward WIT budget being much bigger - given that ~70% of a colleges budget is spent on payroll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 972 ✭✭✭Digital Society


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Still need a source for his/her claim though.

    It is my understanding that WIT have a much higher staff to student ratio.

    That certainly leans toward WIT budget being much bigger - given that ~70% of a colleges budget is spent on payroll.

    Are these figures not public? Any easy way of verifying?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Are these figures not public? Any easy way of verifying?

    Well Invara made the statement without providing any facts. So it's up to him/her to back it up with some source. Otherwise it's just meaningless opinion based rubbish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    Well Invara made the statement without providing any facts. So it's up to him/her to back it up with some source. Otherwise it's just meaningless opinion based rubbish.

    This is all irrelevant as the last 24 hours it has really been shown in the media how f**ked up the whole merger idea is . SETU - RIP


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    imacman wrote: »
    This is all irrelevant as the last 24 hours have really shown i the media how f**ked up the whole merger is . SETU - RIP

    On the contrary. This will be going ahead. The Department of Education have made that very very clear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    On the contrary. This will be going ahead. The Department of Education have made that very very clear.


    WIT Executive board and management met with all staff this morning.
    A short version of the message that was given is that merging with Carlow will not reach the criteria of the TU in reasonable time if ever and the southeast institute of technology that would have to be created in the holding period would damage both institutes and the region .The strategic focus of the two institutions is too diverse . WIT is to continue as it is and strive to be the best institute of technology it can and see how the politics play out over the next few years.
    So as i said before SETU RIP


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    Took this from another thread on the subject .Sums up the situation really well


    Originally Posted by David Cullinane

    A future delivery of University status to Waterford or the Southeast is at a critical juncture. It is without doubt the single biggest challenge facing Waterford in the short to long term. After operating for decades with one hand tied behind our backs we are now faced with our backs against the wall. Those within WIT say the collective (WIT/ITC) cannot meet the criteria within any reasonable timeframe. IT Carlow disagree..

    I have been given the following figures which demonstrate the extent of the problem. I received them from a senior figure within WIT. They relate to the criteria and where both institutes are at:

    Criteria 1.

    Enrolment in the application institutes in research programmes at level 9-10 will not be less than 4% of FTE enrolments at level 8 to 10 (from honours degrees to PhD); growing to 7% and in a small number of fields

    WIT is between 3 and 3.5% at the moment and based on its funding projections 25MEuro this year will soon meet this criteria
    ITC is at 1.2% and has only 1.2MEuro of research funding

    Translating this in to numbers. WIT has 161 students registered at level 9/10 research masters and PhD in 2011-2012. Today it is close to 200. ITC has 27 registered masters and PhD students in 2011-2012. This would have to grow about 100 students. Supporting these students would require a huge increase in postgraduate funding. The research funding is too low for this level of activity. I do not believe that the merged institute could meet this criteria within a reasonable time frame. The impact is that the combined statistics from the two institutes are much lower than the minimum criteria for TU status

    Criteria 2.

    • 45% of FT academic staff holding a level 10 qualification (or equivalence in professional experience and appropriate end quals; this cannot account for >10% of FT staff)

    • Level 10 to increase to 65% within 10 years of designation

    • Fields for doctoral training: >80% staff with level 10 quals; proven and sustained research outputs

    Likewise the concern here is the percentage of qualified staff to level 10. For WIT it is 31% and ITC 21%. Taking in to account the number of WIT registered for PhD and nearing completion the institute will bring the number to 38%. Adding the staff with professional qualifications this could be 45% with a short period. The maximum number for ITC incorporating professional qualifications could reach 31% a major gap from the required 45%.

    There is an interrelationship between the need to grow PhD students and staff qualifications. In the fields of doctoral training >80% staff with level 10 qualifications. WIT meets this criteria in its two key areas of Bio Pharma research (life sciences) and Telecommunications (TSSG). There is no such area in ITC.

    Finally the last issue of International reputation and proven and sustained outputs.

    WIT has two areas of research of critical mass in Biopharma and Telecommunications. We have major collaborations internationally. Some examples. WIT is part of 2 national SFI research centres

    SSPC - Synthesis & Solid State Pharmaceutical Cluster

    CONNECT Centre for Future Networks & Communications

    WIT has three Technology Gateways.

    The worry is the lack of a critical mass of research activity in ITC which would have a major impact on this key criteria.

    So you can see from above the problem. And the real difficulty is that any WIT/ITC application will be judged not by politicians but by an international panel of experts. Sorry for the long post but it is such an important issue. So where do we go from here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭imacman


    I see ITcarlow are already building the Technological university. This is little insight into their arrogance of Carlow , no wonder the relationship between the two institutes is so toxic

    pg3peLv.jpg


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