Heavy Land General Thread

TheSunderz

Anyone interested in setting up a general thread on farming heavy land where people could post management tips, their drainage systems and just in general how they face the challenges of their soil type. I feel not enough emphasis is being placed on managing difficult farms with 6 month winters and the likes.

In my instance, we farm heavy marly land on the "macamores" in north wexford (not all dry ground down here). Considering the move to dairy from sucklers if im to go farm full time when i finish college. Would love to hear from fellow dairy/beef/sheep farmers who aren't blessed with those brown earth, free draining soils.

Brian

caseman

TheSunderz wrote: »

Anyone interested in setting up a general thread on farming heavy land where people could post management tips, their drainage systems and just in general how they face the challenges of their soil type. I feel not enough emphasis is being placed on managing difficult farms with 6 month winters and the likes.

In my instance, we farm heavy marly land on the "macamores" in north wexford (not all dry ground down here). Considering the move to dairy from sucklers if im to go farm full time when i finish college. Would love to hear from fellow dairy/beef/sheep farmers who aren't blessed with those brown earth, free draining soils.

Brian

An some heavy land here,some boggy ground and grey dab.
It was a dairy farm until 11 years ago,and starting again next year.
Suckler farming here the last 6 years and i find their hard managed in times of broken weather an the heavy ground.
Good weather like the last 2 years make the job alot easier.

Fermec2

Were on Heavy Ground Here in North Cork. Last Two Years Really Suited us, But in 2012 We Nearly Floated away! Lucky to have a Large Block of Land around the Parlour tho, & We Havnt Strip Grazed in over 11 Years, Less Poaching. Being Under Stocked is Probably a Better Option, & be Prepared to buy in Extra Feed ina Wet Year. No Ideal Land Type in my Book.

Kovu

In the middle of drumlins here so a mixture of dry hills and pre-bog moors. However the hills are full of shale and not exactly in tip top shape.
Where the shed and yard are built we'll never get flooded but we might blow away

Need to get drainage done maybe next year on a few boggier daub fields, we have one in particular that was drained but badly planned out, the field next to it has now taken all the water:o

Understocked the last three years though so that helps.

TheSunderz

What do ye feel is the maximum stocking rate for heavy ground is? I know it can vary but an average figure?

TheSunderz

caseman wrote: »

An some heavy land here,some boggy ground and grey dab.
It was a dairy farm until 11 years ago,and starting again next year.
Suckler farming here the last 6 years and i find their hard managed in times of broken weather an the heavy ground.
Good weather like the last 2 years make the job alot easier.

Yes have to agree, dairy stock seem easier to manage especially when on/off grazing with cows. Sucklers just jog around the spot!

caseman

Fermec2 wrote: »

Were on Heavy Ground Here in North Cork. Last Two Years Really Suited us, But in 2012 We Nearly Floated away! Lucky to have a Large Block of Land around the Parlour tho, & We Havnt Strip Grazed in over 11 Years, Less Poaching. Being Under Stocked is Probably a Better Option, & be Prepared to buy in Extra Feed ina Wet Year. No Ideal Land Type in my Book.

We floated her in 2012 as well.
Have to disagree an the rotational grazing , i think it's a vital part to get wright in bad weather.

caseman

TheSunderz wrote: »

Yes have to agree, dairy stock seem easier to manage especially when on/off grazing with cows. Sucklers just jog around the spot!

Dairy stock are alot easier an ground if grass is kept wright.
Suckler's love to walk it into the ground, and as you say jog around and always looking for new grass.

TheSunderz

Many lads mole drain? I think its a god send! Are gravel moles worth the extra cost?

TheSunderz

Kovu wrote: »

In the middle of drumlins here so a mixture of dry hills and pre-bog moors. However the hills are full of shale and not exactly in tip top shape.
Where the shed and yard are built we'll never get flooded but we might blow away

Need to get drainage done maybe next year on a few boggier daub fields, we have one in particular that was drained but badly planned out, the field next to it has now taken all the water:o

Understocked the last three years though so that helps.

What were you stocked at if ya dont mind me asking? What SR do you think is the limit for heavier land?

Willfarman

I am a bit further down the coast than yourself in the heart of the grey stuff. Mole draining is the norm in these parts. collection drains are essential. There was an infamous firm of drainage contractors from your neck of the wood back in the day which ran a Massey 1200 for mole ploughing. They kind of set the standard.

TheSunderz

Willfarman wrote: »

I am a bit further down the coast than yourself in the heart of the grey stuff. Mole draining is the norm in these parts. collection drains are essential. There was an infamous firm of drainage contractors from your neck of the wood back in the day which ran a Massey 1200 for mole ploughing. They kind of set the standard.

How far apart to you dig collection drains? Beleive in stoning to the top few inches?

Kovu

TheSunderz wrote: »

What were you stocked at if ya dont mind me asking? What SR do you think is the limit for heavier land?

We had been about 0.9/1.0 LU p.h

Only about 0.6/.7 here at the moment:eek: Some of the land is almost unusable in a bad year, cattle would normally have a six month winter as well as only one cut for silage as well as we had been curtailed with fert limits.

Hope to get back up in numbers again next few years, a bad summer if we were overstocked would cripple us though.

Willfarman

TheSunderz wrote: »

How far apart to you dig collection drains? Beleive in stoning to the top few inches?

You would need to be digging trenches with a trencher machine and stoning to the top few inches to do a real good job but in practice a tracked digger and drainage bucket is used and filled to about a foot or 14 inches to the top. The tapered bucket has it that it would break you to fill the last foot with stone. 30 yards was the maximum distance for the grant years ago I think.

Milked out

Great Idea for a thread. Dairy here half the home farm Is wet, marl type soils, mainly shale rock in the area. Must Find the correct description for it. We find the deep drains 6 to 8 ft work well for taking water coming up from below however the water coming from above Is a different story. Have a roadway going thru the wet part of the farm and as the land is fairly level the water just sits in the fields there in parts. We filled stone up to the surface alongside the roadway from a deep drain making a sort of sinkhole for the water at a point where water runs to in winter which so far seems to take a good bit of the heavy rain that comes in the winter. Also we had a particularly wet area where the fall was away from the open drain and into the roadway so after three or four years of trying to sort it we eventually brought in the diggers and changed the fall as much as we could. Upside being we can now graze It, downside was the cost and having a bit too much subsoil at the surface so it will take a lot of feeding to get It growing good grass.

TheSunderz

Milked out wrote: »

Great Idea for a thread. Dairy here half the home farm Is wet, marl type soils, mainly shale rock in the area. Must Find the correct description for it. We find the deep drains 6 to 8 ft work well for taking water coming up from below however the water coming from above Is a different story. Have a roadway going thru the wet part of the farm and as the land is fairly level the water just sits in the fields there in parts. We filled stone up to the surface alongside the roadway from a deep drain making a sort of sinkhole for the water at a point where water runs to in winter which so far seems to take a good bit of the heavy rain that comes in the winter. Also we had a particularly wet area where the fall was away from the open drain and into the roadway so after three or four years of trying to sort it we eventually brought in the diggers and changed the fall as much as we could. Upside being we can now graze It, downside was the cost and having a bit too much subsoil at the surface so it will take a lot of feeding to get It growing good grass.

Would you have deep shores in the marl land? We use about 4 foot drains as deep drainage dont work in our ground (no permeable layer). Have many access points off the paddocks? Square paddocks seem to suit weter times i believe? Long narrow results in too much walking? Ever consider the hump and hollow drainage?

Milked out

TheSunderz wrote: »

Would you have deep shores in the marl land? We use about 4 foot drains as deep drainage dont work in our ground (no permeable layer). Have many access points off the paddocks? Square paddocks seem to suit weter times i believe? Long narrow results in too much walking? Ever consider the hump and hollow drainage?

On the wet ground we have 2 gaps in most paddocks, one off the farm road on the bottom and the other off the public road which splits the farm. We only use the ones on the public road when the conditions are poor and for machinery during the summer. Ideally square paddocks suit best and if possible 24 hrs paddocks which can be split with a strip wire to keep cows off the grazed part or walking over the same part twice. We occasionally push the cows over grass to the back of paddocks with only one entrance so at least they won't be walking over grazed ground for the second grazing. Again as the lads said milking cows are actually the easiest groups to manage as you can send em out with an appetite and when they are done grazing bring em back In in 3 or 4 hours. We have another paddock running the length of the roadway with three gaps Into It with the trough in the middle by the roadway so we put up the strip wire from the trough across the field with a second one going up again behind them to protect the grazed area iykwim
Thinking again 6 ft Is probably the deepest we have went with drains, a lot of water underground here which we try to take away. Getting the water from the surface down can be an Issue. Never tried the mole drains here. We have one silage field here which Is flat and low which I'm haunted to be just finishing grazing as the cows did a bit of poaching last nite In it. The drains are flowing but like that water just sits on the surface. There are the world of stones in it so reluctant to subsoil. Meant to try an aerator this year but contractor didn't work out at the time an I left it off wished I had done it now if only to see results

TheSunderz

Milked out wrote: »

On the wet ground we have 2 gaps in most paddocks, one off the farm road on the bottom and the other off the public road which splits the farm. We only use the ones on the public road when the conditions are poor and for machinery during the summer. Ideally square paddocks suit best and if possible 24 hrs paddocks which can be split with a strip wire to keep cows off the grazed part or walking over the same part twice. We occasionally push the cows over grass to the back of paddocks with only one entrance so at least they won't be walking over grazed ground for the second grazing. Again as the lads said milking cows are actually the easiest groups to manage as you can send em out with an appetite and when they are done grazing bring em back In in 3 or 4 hours. We have another paddock running the length of the roadway with three gaps Into It with the trough in the middle by the roadway so we put up the strip wire from the trough across the field with a second one going up again behind them to protect the grazed area iykwim
Thinking again 6 ft Is probably the deepest we have went with drains, a lot of water underground here which we try to take away. Getting the water from the surface down can be an Issue. Never tried the mole drains here. We have one silage field here which Is flat and low which I'm haunted to be just finishing grazing as the cows did a bit of poaching last nite In it. The drains are flowing but like that water just sits on the surface. There are the world of stones in it so reluctant to subsoil. Meant to try an aerator this year but contractor didn't work out at the time an I left it off wished I had done it now if only to see results

What are you stocked at? Springs not a problem in our ground. Would you have cows out early much on the heavier ground? Considering trialing an aerator hrre too to see the difference. Would be interesting to compare.

Milked out

TheSunderz wrote: »

What are you stocked at? Springs not a problem in our ground. Would you have cows out early much on the heavier ground? Considering trialing an aerator hrre too to see the difference. Would be interesting to compare.

Over all ground, rented, calf and heifers, etc we are stocked at 2.2lu/ha. We buy in maize as well as we are in winter milk which allows us keep a slightly higher stocking rate on the milking block.
In a normal year it would be march before we would get out on it, and that would be using on off grazing and back fencing. Some years its been april others its the end of feb. We are lucky that half the home place is drier which we can get out in feb unless it's v wet. One Issue is that the wet ground ends up being closed earlier in autumn due to weather and depending on winter conditions you could end up trying to graze them in spring with a strong cover of grass on it which can be awkward

onyerbikepat

Would it be possible to put up photos, videos even better, of the different soil types? I hear types like Marl, Daub, Shale etc, but different names mean different things to different people.
Great idea for a thread. Enough wet land in Ireland.:rolleyes:

TheSunderz

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up photos, videos even better, of the different soil types? I hear types like Marl, Daub, Shale etc, but different names mean different things to different people.
Great idea for a thread. Enough wet land in Ireland.:rolleyes:

Ill get down into one of the gripes for a few snaps. The father wont know what to say.

Farmer

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up photos, videos even better, of the different soil types? I hear types like Marl, Daub, Shale etc, but different names mean different things to different people.
Great idea for a thread. Enough wet land in Ireland.:rolleyes:

You'll find the marl here http://staffweb.itsligo.ie/staff/dcotton/Holocene_Epoch_11,700_to_present.html
Great site overall

TheSunderz

Ground getting tender here hopefully there won't be too much rain after Monday nite.

_Brian

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up photos, videos even better, of the different soil types? I hear types like Marl, Daub, Shale etc, but different names mean different things to different people.
Great idea for a thread. Enough wet land in Ireland.:rolleyes:

There was a link posted recently to the all Ireland land type survey. You could check by location what soil type you have. We have Ballyhaise something, photo with it looks exactly like our ground when dug through.
When I'm back on laptop I'll look for it or maybe someone knows the link, was a Teagasc link I think.

_Brian

Were stockless since last weekend so softness in ground isn't a problem, bit of grass left on some fields will probably be lost though which is a shame.
Will be maybe two/three weeks before we buy so don't see them being out at that stage. All weather dependant.

onyerbikepat

Is this it? Irish Soil maps.

http://www.agresearch.teagasc.ie/johnstown/soil_maps.asp

_Brian

Here...

http://gis.teagasc.ie/soils/map.php

On the MAPS tab find your land and the associated colour.. where it says base maps click on ESRI street and it will be easier to find locations

Then go to the Soils Guide Tab and select the colour on the left panel.
The right panel will show details and descriptions, many with photos and cross sections..
I found it accurate, if only to confirm ours is a bit ****e

towzer2010

My land is a mix of crap and slightly worse than that so heavy soils is my lot. In fairness I've some pretty good sandy soil type land but the amount of rainfall we get means that we have a long winter.

Anyway in peat soils has anyone every tried mixing the peat layer with the daub layer underneath? A neighbour tried it and it really seems to have worked well. I have noticed that when I've cleaned out drains and spread the spoil, after a year or two the two layers mix quite well to give a good soil type with a solid surface.

I'm now trying it on a larger scale. I've a 3 acre block of what's called bottoms round here which is a low lying area with a peat layer of about 3 foot and daub underneath. Pic below. Its a total mess really and if this doesn't work I'll probably plant it.



This was what some of it was like after the heavy rain last week



What I'm doing is burying most of the peat layer and mixing some of the daub layer with some of the peat layer. I've my own digger and this is a winter project but its fairly slow going. This was what I've done after an hour or two on Saturday. I've levelled it since this pic.



Anyway what I'm hoping is after time and diesel by next summer it will be fit to reseed.

Has anyone tried something like this?

Kovu

_Brian wrote: »

Here...

http://gis.teagasc.ie/soils/map.php

On the MAPS tab find your land and the associated colour.. where it says base maps click on ESRI street and it will be easier to find locations

Then go to the Soils Guide Tab and select the colour on the left panel.
The right panel will show details and descriptions, many with photos and cross sections..
I found it accurate, if only to confirm ours is a bit ****e

Hmmmm interesting. Majority of ours is 'Fine loamy drift with siliceous stones' with a shot of 'River alluvium'

That's if I've worked it out correctly though!

milkprofit

towzer2010 wrote: »

My land is a mix of crap and slightly worse than that so heavy soils is my lot. In fairness I've some pretty good sandy soil type land but the amount of rainfall we get means that we have a long winter.

Anyway in peat soils has anyone every tried mixing the peat layer with the daub layer underneath? A neighbour tried it and it really seems to have worked well. I have noticed that when I've cleaned out drains and spread the spoil, after a year or two the two layers mix quite well to give a good soil type with a solid surface.

I'm now trying it on a larger scale. I've a 3 acre block of what's called bottoms round here which is a low lying area with a peat layer of about 3 foot and daub underneath. Pic below. Its a total mess really and if this doesn't work I'll probably plant it.

What is daub
Your sub layer looks like what I call grey marl nothing will grow on this
What I have done successfully is mix that turf peat like soil with gravely soil or the spoil from drains or third or fourth grade soil what ever I can find handy eg removing ditches foundations etc it helps

onyerbikepat

The grey soil in the first pic, is that not Marl? What is daub?
Here in East Clare, we call the subsoil on the uplands 'dough bui', yellow earth, I guess. It's a very solid type earth, not that water permeable but very solid. If you were ever stuck on a tractor, once you cut down through the topsoil and hit the dough biu undernath, you would be fine. Like gravel to drive on. Confused !

_Brian

Just wen you mentioned mixing it like that.
Jus a month or so ago I saw a field on my travels being turned with a 20 ton machine. Couldn't quite figure it out at the time. It's all seeded now with a wee green covering. Maybe that's what he was doing.

towzer2010

milkprofit wrote: »

What is daub
Your sub layer looks like what I call grey marl nothing will grow on this
What I have done successfully is mix that turf peat like soil with gravely soil or the spoil from drains or third or fourth grade soil what ever I can find handy eg removing ditches foundations etc it helps

onyerbikepat wrote: »

The grey soil in the first pic, is that not Marl? What is daub?
Here in East Clare, we call the subsoil on the uplands 'dough bui', yellow earth, I guess. It's a very solid type earth, not that water permeable but very solid. If you were ever stuck on a tractor, once you cut down through the topsoil and hit the dough biu undernath, you would be fine. Like gravel to drive on. Confused !

Daub is probably marl but was always called daub here which it probably shouldn't be. I've been told by a friend who is a marine biologist that its actually a type of chalk so can be quite high in calcium and helps to neutralise acidic soils which the peat is so that was my thinking on it.

_Brian wrote: »

Just wen you mentioned mixing it like that.
Jus a month or so ago I saw a field on my travels being turned with a 20 ton machine. Couldn't quite figure it out at the time. It's all seeded now with a wee green covering. Maybe that's what he was doing.

Could be. I've seen it locally a few times recently and as I've said it seems to have worked fairly well for a neighbour but we have had two dry years. I'll post pics on how it turns out next summer anyway either as a recommendation or a disaster.

towzer2010

onyerbikepat wrote: »

The grey soil in the first pic, is that not Marl? What is daub?
Here in East Clare, we call the subsoil on the uplands 'dough bui', yellow earth, I guess. It's a very solid type earth, not that water permeable but very solid. If you were ever stuck on a tractor, once you cut down through the topsoil and hit the dough biu undernath, you would be fine. Like gravel to drive on. Confused !

No if you every got stuck in daub you wont get out on your own. It is kinda like pottery clay in that its very sticky but when spread in a layer and dry its very hard.

onyerbikepat

There was an article in the journal a while back about a farm in New Zealand where they were mixing up different soil types like above, to create a better grazing soil. Originally Peaty on top with a more gravelly subsoil.

I'll put up a pic of 'dough bui' when I get a chance.;)

skoger

towzer2010 wrote: »

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/307001/325846.jpg

That looks like you dug a hole in one of our fields. Around here we call the daub layer blue clay.

Greengrass1

Was walking ground we drained today. Basically bog. Had heap of trees in it and ye couldnt walk in it but you would be up to your knees in it
Any way when we drained it the lads said they seen a job done in a bog where they put down 1ft of stone then pipe and another ft of stone.
Any way we did this in this part of ground. Dry as a bone niw after all the rain
Other ground we drained at the same time is just as bad as it always was we dug down in that layed pipe and put stone on top.
Its not wet but there is a few springs in it that make field wet this time of yr.
Ill think ill try what we did in the soft ground on this part when we go at it again

Farmer

Greengrass1 wrote: »

.... where they put down 1ft of stone then pipe and another ft of stone.
....

Is that a standard narrow drain (dug with tile drain bucket) with pipe a foot from the bottom and then filled to top with chips? I wonder is it to have more chips around the pipe so less likely to clog

Greengrass1

Farmer wrote: »

Is that a standard narrow drain (dug with tile drain bucket) with pipe a foot from the bottom and then filled to top with chips? I wonder is it to have more chips around the pipe so less likely to clog

Ye dug with a tile bucket. This drain is a great job. There 6 yrs and still doing the job