Abuse of Livestock at Marts

wesleysniper38

Now correct me here if this has been discussed before but I'll tell you my gripe..

I attend a mart occasionally at weekends to sometimes sell an odd dry cow but also to look for decent weanling heifers or springers.
This particular mart never ceases to amaze me for the following reasons:

1. Cattle are hammered literally from the time they go up the chute until they're gone through the ring and put back in the pen.
2. I have taken cattle out of this mart with whelts on their hides and eyes weeping from excessive beating by handlers.
3. On busy mart days I've often seen cattle crammed into sheep pens.
4. Flighty / nervous types have run amok inthis area and it is nothing short of a miracle no one has been seriously injured
5. The amount of farmers that take their chilren to the mart is astounding given the hazards at this particular venue
6. Not being the type to leave it to others to voice concern about these matters; I told the Manager of my concerns especially regarding the whelting of cattle..his response after a long pause was "Nobody here sent for you"!

Anyway , needless to say I haven't been back since then. As a modest suckler farmer myself I detest seeing cattle abused. Theres always an odd one who has to get a crack of the wavin but this is beyond all that surely.

I can only conclude there is little or no enforcement of animal welfare regulations at some livestock marts.

Rant over!

Bodacious

wesleysniper38 wrote: »

Now correct me here if this has been discussed before but I'll tell you my gripe..

I attend a mart occasionally at weekends to sometimes sell an odd dry cow but also to look for decent weanling heifers or springers.
This particular mart never ceases to amaze me for the following reasons:

1. Cattle are hammered literally from the time they go up the chute until they're gone through the ring and put back in the pen.
2. I have taken cattle out of this mart with whelts on their hides and eyes weeping from excessive beating by handlers.
3. On busy mart days I've often seen cattle crammed into sheep pens.
4. Flighty / nervous types have run amok inthis area and it is nothing short of a miracle no one has been seriously injured
5. The amount of farmers that take their chilren to the mart is astounding given the hazards at this particular venue
6. Not being the type to leave it to others to voice concern about these matters; I told the Manager of my concerns especially regarding the whelting of cattle..his response after a long pause was "Nobody here sent for you"!

Anyway , needless to say I haven't been back since then. As a modest suckler farmer myself I detest seeing cattle abused. Theres always an odd one who has to get a crack of the wavin but this is beyond all that surely.

I can only conclude there is little or no enforcement of animal welfare regulations at some livestock marts.

Rant over!

Wesley.. I could not agree with you more.. the slashing at marts AND factory lairages drives me wild and no enforcing body on animal welfare whatsoever.. I would take the job in the morning and do it well..

Genghis Cant

Is there anything stopping a poster here naming a Mart where they witnessed this abuse?

kay 9

It's the same in most marts lad. Only last week I warned a mart worker that was needlessly beating a heifer we brought in. She was like a pet. No need in it. It got hot between himself and the old man.

Feckthis

I purchased a in- calf heifer in the ring one time and out I went to look at her in the pen. She was trying to get under or over any gap she seen. I thought I picked the wrong animal bet she settled down after awhile. Quite as a mouse now.

Some lads are just f&@king awful with cattle. I'd love to take there wavin pipe and give them a belt myself.

Kovu

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is there anything stopping a poster here naming a Mart where they witnessed this abuse?

Defamation perhaps.....let me ask before you go naming anyone. Just a precaution!

Mac Taylor

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is there anything stopping a poster here naming a Mart where they witnessed this abuse?

Reggie did on another thread early this week. He has set the precedence if the blame game breaks out!

Farmer

Surely you are all wrong. All that matters is that there are no more than 4 movements!

tanko

kay 9 wrote: »

It's the same in most marts lad. Only last week I warned a mart worker that was needlessly beating a heifer we brought in. She was like a pet. No need in it. It got hot between himself and the old man.

Well said, some of the lads who work in marts should get a dose of the treatment which they dish out to animals and see how they like it.

Bodacious

No sign of these flags or white paddles, temple grandin or basic common sense at many many marts ... Open the gate and show her where to go .. They instinctively will move away from you .. All too often the beating starts before the animal can see that a human has opened the gate to pen .. People walk across the gangway in front of cattle .. They instinctively stop.. Mart worker takes out his frustration on cattle's backs rather than on the peoples !

Nekarsulm

Was at Irish Country Meats in Navan the other day.Was an oasis of calm. Not a single raised voice or shout, no cursing or kicking. Two men on the pens and an official on the paperwork. In fairness, was impressed. But marts are different often. Part time staff and often very poor layouts and animal flow.
If you hit a drover a few skites of a stick, would your objections to animal cruelty cut any ice in court, when your assault case came before the judge?

greysides

Animal welfare is taken seriously at official level these days. Make an official written complaint to the appropriate DVO.

No doubt if it gets nasty some photographic/video evidence would back up your assertions.

Brass Tag

Charity begins at home lads. Practice of bringing weanlings straight off cow to mart is pure fukn torture on man and beast.
Why the fug is it allowed in this day and age?

ellejola14

Hi all, I'm totally new to posting here. I usually just have a read of things but this really stuck out to me. I am a welfare officer with DARD and we take reports of animal cruelty very seriously. All reports are investigated and follow up visits are also carried out. I would very much recommend that you make a complaint to your local DVO about what's happening. Nothing enrages me more than blatant unnecessary cruelty.

tim04750

Brass Tag wrote: »

Charity begins at home lads. Practice of bringing weanlings straight off cow to mart is pure fukn torture on man and beast.
Why the fug is it allowed in this day and age?

You're dead right but I don't know how you could police it ,guys doing it are simply too fuggin lazy to wean them even half right

kowtow

I notice this behaviour everytime I am at the mart and from a welfare point of view is is repugnant.

But I am not sure that it should be left to the DVO or any other regulator to sort it out. The Mart is a commercial venture, and we go there to buy and sell stock.

Ask an antiques dealer or furniture restorer whether he would be happy to see his property shovelled through the auction room by hitting it with pieces of re-bar, instead of using a ramp and a trolley? How would he feel about the loss of value?

Welfare aside, common sense dictates that we should expect our Marts to maximise the value of our property, and look after it as we would ourselves.

bogman_bass

All you need is some buck from Dublin turning up with a camera and you have a scandal on your hands. No need for it 90% of the time

whelan2

have never seen any one heavy handed in my local mart, if i did i would say it to the mart manager, whats the point of saying it on here or talking about it after

Connemara Farmer

I see two things in two different marts. One is kids being allowed drive cattle and sheep through the mart. Saw one young buck run up an aisle and leather a cow that was INSIDE a pen just for the hell of it on his way by. Told them to **** off out of it when Dad had lambs in one day.

The other mart I see certain dealers and buyers lifting lambs by their wool to judge weight. Now I know somewhere it's written down I have an obligation to make sure my animals are free from pain and maybe stress too. I'd love if them lads were lifted by the hair, or if they're baldy feckers then the lugs, cos none of them are lightweights.

Sam Kade

Connemara Farmer wrote: »

I see two things in two different marts. One is kids being allowed drive cattle and sheep through the mart. Saw one young buck run up an aisle and leather a cow that was INSIDE a pen just for the hell of it on his way by. Told them to **** off out of it when Dad had lambs in one day.

The other mart I see certain dealers and buyers lifting lambs by their wool to judge weight. Now I know somewhere it's written down I have an obligation to make sure my animals are free from pain and maybe stress too. I'd love if them lads were lifted by the hair, or if they're baldy feckers then the lugs, cos none of them are lightweights.

They use young goats to drive cattle

Reggie.

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Reggie did on another thread early this week. He has set the precedence if the blame game breaks out!

In fairness it was only one drover in that mart

solwhit2

There is no need to hit them for no reason but what about if a wild one is coming straight for you what are you supposed to do .if one of my cattle were doing the c**t I'd have no problem in giving them a clatter so why should we expect different at the mart.these cruelty crowd are a way more upset when something happens an animal than a human but they still eat meat for there dinner.contradicting themselves as usual

Connemara Farmer

solwhit2 wrote: »

There is no need to hit them for no reason but what about if a wild one is coming straight for you what are you supposed to do .if one of my cattle were doing the c**t I'd have no problem in giving them a clatter so why should we expect different at the mart.these cruelty crowd are a way more upset when something happens an animal than a human but they still eat meat for there dinner.contradicting themselves as usual

Excessive and needless clattering and needless rough handling are the issues.

whupdedo

Does anyone think it makes sense to report it to the ISPCA, isn't that what they are their for ?

farmerjj

wesleysniper38 wrote: »

Now correct me here if this has been discussed before but I'll tell you my gripe..

I attend a mart occasionally at weekends to sometimes sell an odd dry cow but also to look for decent weanling heifers or springers.
This particular mart never ceases to amaze me for the following reasons:

1. Cattle are hammered literally from the time they go up the chute until they're gone through the ring and put back in the pen.
2. I have taken cattle out of this mart with whelts on their hides and eyes weeping from excessive beating by handlers.
3. On busy mart days I've often seen cattle crammed into sheep pens.
4. Flighty / nervous types have run amok inthis area and it is nothing short of a miracle no one has been seriously injured
5. The amount of farmers that take their chilren to the mart is astounding given the hazards at this particular venue
6. Not being the type to leave it to others to voice concern about these matters; I told the Manager of my concerns especially regarding the whelting of cattle..his response after a long pause was "Nobody here sent for you"!

Anyway , needless to say I haven't been back since then. As a modest suckler farmer myself I detest seeing cattle abused. Theres always an odd one who has to get a crack of the wavin but this is beyond all that surely.

I can only conclude there is little or no enforcement of animal welfare regulations at some livestock marts.

Rant over!

You should bring it to the attention of the mart manager, and maybe record some of the abuse on your phone, he would have to take some action if its as bad as you say.

boggerman1

new to boards.ie.have been browsing this farming section for a good while now.as someone who works in a cattle mart in tipperary i have to say that the stick is only used when necessary.however farmers have to take some responsibility themselves in this.the amount of times you will hear lads say that an animal that is wild only turned wild the second they hit the mart is laughable.no animal turns that quick.the weanling sales are the worst.i have used the stick myself,no point in saying otherwise.i sure am going to defend myself when needs be instead of been knocked to the ground by a lunatic.saw a fellow worker get knocked down by mad cattle and he was damm lucky to get away with not been kicked in the head.95% of the cattle are grand and easily handled.but it can be very hard sometimes when the passage ways are full of people in your way and they wont get out of your way.say anything to them and you get told where to go fairly sharpish.it can be funny at times how some farmers think they can walk tru the sorting pen when its full of cattle and you trying to get cattle sorted for the scales.as for that american lady ,i have had the "pleasure" of watching a dvd of her during 3 mart coarses.if every mart was forced to put in the pens that she droons on about acres of ground would be needed for same would be huge.

farmerjj

boggerman1 wrote: »

new to boards.ie.have been browsing this farming section for a good while now.as someone who works in a cattle mart in tipperary i have to say that the stick is only used when necessary.however farmers have to take some responsibility themselves in this.the amount of times you will hear lads say that an animal that is wild only turned wild the second they hit the mart is laughable.no animal turns that quick.the weanling sales are the worst.i have used the stick myself,no point in saying otherwise.i sure am going to defend myself when needs be instead of been knocked to the ground by a lunatic.saw a fellow worker get knocked down by mad cattle and he was damm lucky to get away with not been kicked in the head.95% of the cattle are grand and easily handled.but it can be very hard sometimes when the passage ways are full of people in your way and they wont get out of your way.say anything to them and you get told where to go fairly sharpish.it can be funny at times how some farmers think they can walk tru the sorting pen when its full of cattle and you trying to get cattle sorted for the scales.as for that american lady ,i have had the "pleasure" of watching a dvd of her during 3 mart coarses.if every mart was forced to put in the pens that she droons on about acres of ground would be needed for same would be huge.

I have seen normally quiet cattle turn totally bonkers when they get to a mart,it does happen.

Reggie.

boggerman1 wrote: »

new to boards.ie.have been browsing this farming section for a good while now.as someone who works in a cattle mart in tipperary i have to say that the stick is only used when necessary.however farmers have to take some responsibility themselves in this.the amount of times you will hear lads say that an animal that is wild only turned wild the second they hit the mart is laughable.no animal turns that quick.the weanling sales are the worst.i have used the stick myself,no point in saying otherwise.i sure am going to defend myself when needs be instead of been knocked to the ground by a lunatic.saw a fellow worker get knocked down by mad cattle and he was damm lucky to get away with not been kicked in the head.95% of the cattle are grand and easily handled.but it can be very hard sometimes when the passage ways are full of people in your way and they wont get out of your way.say anything to them and you get told where to go fairly sharpish.it can be funny at times how some farmers think they can walk tru the sorting pen when its full of cattle and you trying to get cattle sorted for the scales.as for that american lady ,i have had the "pleasure" of watching a dvd of her during 3 mart coarses.if every mart was forced to put in the pens that she droons on about acres of ground would be needed for same would be huge.

Them instances I have no issues with. I witnessed the drover hit every animal coming OUT of the ring. No people near him plus cattle just had one way to go but he had to hit every animal at least twice as it went past him. If he stood back the animal would go the same way

wesleysniper38

Of course cattle will need to be hit occasionally, I've no problem with that.. but the necessity and ferocity with which hard timber sticks are used is certainly not acceptable to me; especially when the poor beast has nowhere to go.

In relation to the DVO, I had 2 inspections this summer and raised the issue with both Inspectors..
The reply was typical Public Servant kick it into touch: "That mart is in a grey area as it's not under our watch" he went on to say that Saturday marts are much harder policed, because of financial constraints it would involve 2 Officers attending plus one Health and Safety official. A joint initiative would be needed and that type of thing would have to be sanctioned from the top as it would require a meeting to discuss strategies, approach and action taken...... ....
eventually he bored me into submission and the subject changed.

But when the little weasel saw a cow with tags missing his eyes lit up like a 6 year old in Santas grotto!

Durrus Boy

Sell all our stock through a number of marts during the year. All are varying continental breeds of differing ages.
I make a point of following stock from the chute to their pen and again coming out from the pen heading for the ring and it definitely cuts down on the belting they might get as drover's are aware they're my stock. In fairness drover's can be under fierce pressure especially this time of year at the bigger sales. An extra pair of hands definitely helps....

MfMan

Sell most of my stock to factories (in the west); anywhere I go I notice that the drovers are careful not to use unnecessary force on animals or excite them unduly. Also, when handling cattle at home, particularly those coming near slaughter, if I have to hit them, it's always along the spine / backbone. To much beating on the rump or flanks can mark the carcase they say.

onyerbikepat

I noticed at Ennis Mart in recent years that the handlers are a lot more 'gentler'. There are cameras everywhere now, so any abuse is easily picked up. I heard some American visitor took issue with the use of the stick there a while back. There are Coach busses going in there now regularly so the drovers have to watch what they do.

Dickie10

ICM navan is a grand place alright, never any stree or strain on the lads or the sheep, it seems a well ran place

_Brian

If fairness some farmers themselves don't ell things. Along with the non weaning weanlings mentioned above. Stock with horns in the mart is unacceptable. On an number if occasions I've seen animals badly injured with broken horns from injuries in the mart.

Was looking at weanlings last week that were frantic bawling from being taken straight from the cow. They were wet with sweat and under serious stress, one whole pen were a sad looking sight. Add onto this lads whipping them with sticks it can be a sad sight and no much surprise they come home with chills and pneumonia.

Tokyo

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is there anything stopping a poster here naming a Mart where they witnessed this abuse?

Mod Note:

• if you're posting the facts about your experience and they're negative, there's nothing wrong with that;
• if you're posting your opinion of the person or people involved, you're in a gray area;
• and if you're just having a bitching session or trying to get the boot in, well, your post is getting edited or deleted at a bare minimum.

So feel free to discuss, but bear the above in mind, and if the line gets crossed, we'll snip the post. Fairest we can do all round without bringing trouble down upon ourselves, if you're all okay by that.

wesleysniper38

mike_ie wrote: »

Mod Note:

• if you're posting the facts about your experience and they're negative, there's nothing wrong with that;
• if you're posting your opinion of the person or people involved, you're in a gray area;
• and if you're just having a bitching session or trying to get the boot in, well, your post is getting edited or deleted at a bare minimum.

So feel free to discuss, but bear the above in mind, and if the line gets crossed, we'll snip the post. Fairest we can do all round without bringing trouble down upon ourselves, if you're all okay by that.

It's in NW Cavan on the Leitrim border.
Maybe thats the best way to put it.

Base price

A mart that I occasionally attend never has a grain of straw in the calf pens. They have to lie on bare concrete. If it is raining outside, the roof leaks and the water runs from one pen to the next. Disgraceful neglect in my opinion and the mart has been getting away with it for years. I wouldn't buy a calf from that place.

Bodacious

Base price wrote: »

A mart that I occasionally attend never has a grain of straw in the calf pens. They have to lie on bare concrete. If it is raining outside, the roof leaks and the water runs from one pen to the next. Disgraceful neglect in my opinion and the mart has been getting away with it for years. I wouldn't buy a calf from that place.

Unacceptable ... You won't see that in a "green image" bord Bia YouTube advert ?!

Farmer

Base price wrote: »

A mart that I occasionally attend never has a grain of straw in the calf pens. They have to lie on bare concrete. If it is raining outside, the roof leaks and the water runs from one pen to the next. Disgraceful neglect in my opinion and the mart has been getting away with it for years. I wouldn't buy a calf from that place.

You'd often see them lying quite content though and in fairness they may be brought home to lie on a bare floor under one of those slotted roofs that let some air and rain in, so maybe we shouldn't judge them to a higher standard than our own. I'd imagine the alien environment with all the human hustle and driving is the most stressful bit

Base price

Farmer wrote: »

You'd often see them lying quite content though and in fairness they may be brought home to lie on a bare floor under one of those slotted roofs that let some air and rain in, so maybe we shouldn't judge them to a higher standard than our own. I'd imagine the alien environment with all the human hustle and driving is the most stressful bit

I have to disagree with you on this. In my opinion, calves should never be treated in this way. I know of no farmer who puts calves on bare concrete.
Notwithstanding the fact that there is legislation in place to ensure the 5 basic principles of animal welfare, I like most farmers treat our animals with respect.
Unfortunately there are a few who do not including this particular mart.
There is quite a useful pdf document by the Health Safety Authority - Guidance on Marts and Lairages on the subject of both cattle handling and personal safety. Worth a read.

_Brian

Farmer wrote: »

You'd often see them lying quite content though and in fairness they may be brought home to lie on a bare floor under one of those slotted roofs that let some air and rain in, so maybe we shouldn't judge them to a higher standard than our own. I'd imagine the alien environment with all the human hustle and driving is the most stressful bit

If ya brought a suck home from the mart and put them lying on concrete they'd be dead in few days.

jay gatsby

Bit of positive and negative to post here.

Local factory now is like someone else said, a picture of calm, no abuse or unnecessary striking which is as it should be.

Several Marts for weanling sales are an absolute disgrace with both farmers and drovers to blame, definitely 80%-90% of "weanlings" straight off cows that morning, a blind man could see it. Several pens with cattle dehorned in such a botched manner as to be laughable.

Cattle then shouted at and beaten, not all the time but too much. regularly see experienced drovers drive a dozen cattle into a corner and then beat the backs of them to get them back out. Pure abuse and nothing else.

Another one that gets me is farmers looking at stock in pens. Walk up to the pen, up on top of the gate and shout and jab a stick into the nearest beast. 90% of time they are not even buying, brainless morons a lot of them

Considering how tight dept are on animal welfare in some cases I'm stunned at the lack of regulation in marts. But it is up to us as patrons of these places to report it to mart manager and DVO

Farmer

jay gatsby wrote: »

Several Marts for weanling sales are an absolute disgrace with both farmers and drovers to blame, definitely 80%-90% of "weanlings" straight off cows that morning, a blind man could see it. Several pens with cattle dehorned in such a botched manner as to be laughable.

Wouldn't it be a great place for a QA inspector to hang out if the scheme was truly organized around quality, rather than window dressing.

whelan2

not at a mart but animal cruelty at its worst, lad was telling me this morning he goes after hunt fixing fences. At the weekend he came across 2 horses and their riders at a ditch, the horses refused to jump, he said never in his life did he see 2 animals getting such a beating. Sad to think that some people get enjoyment from this.Some other riders came behind and where also hitting the horses with a whip:mad: They would not turn the horses around and go another way. The lad Who was telling me said he couldnt sleep that night after seeing it.

I said

whelan2 wrote: »

not at a mart but animal cruelty at its worst, lad was telling me this morning he goes after hunt fixing fences. At the weekend he came across 2 horses and their riders at a ditch, the horses refused to jump, he said never in his life did he see 2 animals getting such a beating. Sad to think that some people get enjoyment from this.Some other riders came behind and where also hitting the horses with a whip:mad: They would not turn the horses around and go another way. The lad Who was telling me said he couldnt sleep that night after seeing it.

And they wonder why people have no time for them

Bodacious

I said wrote: »

And they wonder why people have no time for them

I not saying I agree with it but the mentality with the hunter (horse) is if he is allowed to back from a ditch/fence once he will want to do it again .. If he is made jump it he won't think he has won the battle of wills

Midlandsman80

There is other ways of making a horse jump than hammering him, just bad horsanship that it's all those fools on top know, have seen fool hammering horse trying to load them and one quiet man with some time would walk up the se horses.

On the mart thing, I did read some time ago that some Mart in the country had introduced large paddles rather than wavin and trained staff to move animals with minimal stress.
The cattle can see the paddles so move easier than waving a thin pipe...
Haven't read full thread so maybe this was mentioned already,...

DBB

Bodacious wrote: »

I not saying I agree with it but the mentality with the hunter (horse) is if he is allowed to back from a ditch/fence once he will want to do it again .. If he is made jump it he won't think he has won the battle of wills

There is a lot of ignorance amongst some horsey folk about how to deal with refusal to jump a ditch... suffice to say that there's always a reason why the horse won't take an obstacle on, and the hunting field is not the place to address it. Bring the horse home and go back to basics. The hunstmen should send home anyone who treats their horse like that. Ignorant feckers.
I'm also wondering whether to laugh or cry at the drover fella earlier in the thread talking about "that american woman droning on"... jeez lad, Temple Grandin has helped revolutionise animal welfare across the western world... anyone dissing that needs to take a hard look at themselves. It's not her. It's you.:rolleyes: