Big course changes at Co Sligo golf club

Dr Devious

All to be done within the next year.....

In brief, the following improvements are to be made to these holes in phase one:
HOLE ONE: A new championship tee shaping a different line for the drive; a new mound straddling the fairway; an extended green and a new bunker to match the existing one on the right.
HOLE TWO: Most significant will be work to bring the out-of-bounds wall more into focus for big hitters and a much larger green. There will also be a new fairway bunker on the left.
HOLE THREE: A new green behind the existing one will extend the hole by some 60 metres.
HOLE FIVE: Another par five that is too short by modern standards. This will be converted into a dog-leg right by placing a new tee in the “roundabout” on the road to Bomore. The green will also be enlarged at the back.
HOLE SIX: The fairway will narrow near the shelter hut with two new bunkers nearby.
HOLE SEVEN: The stream lining the left of the hole will come into play more; a new fairway bunker and an extension of the green towards the shelter hut will add some “white knuckle” pin positions.
HOLE EIGHT: A new tee 30 metres behind the existing one to lengthen the hole and work to enlarge and add bunkers.
HOLE 10: This hole is to be lengthened by 65 metres by building a new championship tee behind the existing one and increasing the length and width of the green. Greenside bunkers are also planned.
HOLE 11: This will become more of a dog-leg by creating a new championship tee 30 metres back and to the right. A large fairway bunker will be excavated on the left of the fairway.
HOLE 12: The drive here is too close to the ninth green so the medal tee moves forward and right. The fairway will also move right some 20 metres. More bunkering.
HOLE 18: The most significant change is for championship players to tee up from the ladies’ tee on hole five. The green is to be dropped slightly at the back and extended. Some of the contours of the fairway will be changed to create a “speed ramp” to slow down long running balls. Also green side bunkering to make some pin positions more nervy.

pinkdoubleeagle

When is this happening?

Rikand

the 3rd, 5th, 8th and 12th are the only ones I really agree with as of right now.

3rd and 5th could both do with lengthening, i agree, though i hope they dont ruin the holes with the changes.

8th also needs to be lengthened definitely. Any drive up the right hand side and all you have left is a flick into the green. Pushing it 30 metres back will bring the rough on the right more into play and force you to keep your drive more down the left side of the fairway.

12th is a good change also. Don't think it needs any extra bunkering. Yes, the sole bunker in the middle of the fairway will be out of play now but it's still a right good dig in there in 2 and a very tricky green imo.


Cant really think of the other holes to say yay or nay at the minute

Rikand

pinkdoubleeagle wrote: »

When is this happening?

You'd imagine it would be after the West.....

Dr Devious

Starting right away but doubt it will be in play for this years west, maybe one or two tees but certainly not the new greens.

FixdePitchmark

Any idea why ?

Dr Devious

"These are improvements that will “move County Sligo back to the very pinnacle of world golf,” according to course architect Pat Ruddy.
And it will not cost members a penny. A special general meeting of the club heard on Saturday evening that a benefactor had promised to cover the costs of this first phase of work — under the strict condition that he (or she) remained anonymous.
Members heard that the work was proposed against a background of declining green fees; falling rankings for the club nationally and internationally; and a loss of profile."

FixdePitchmark

How much are green fees ?

Stunning place to play golf. But I'd rate it as interesting and different .
I wouldn't put it at top of one's I've played.

In fact I'd rather play Enniscrone or Strand hill.

John Divney

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How much are green fees ?

Stunning place to play golf. But I'd rate it as interesting and different .
I wouldn't put it at top of one's I've played.

In fact I'd rather play Enniscrone or Strand hill.

The most expensive of the Sligo courses last time I was there a few years ago

PARlance

John Divney wrote: »

The most expensive of the Sligo courses last time I was there a few years ago

Still seems to be holding onto that title.
Was down west this weekend and had a quick look at golfnow.ie.
It was the most expensive by some bit. Think €88 was the cheapest green fee available for it.

Miley Byrne

You can play both Enniscrone & Rosses over 2 days for the next few weeks for €80 which is great value. There are a few of us thinking of heading up for a night

Dr Devious

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How much are green fees ?

Stunning place to play golf. But I'd rate it as interesting and different .
I wouldn't put it at top of one's I've played.

In fact I'd rather play Enniscrone or Strand hill.

95 quid but its probably mainly for the yanks, you may be able to get a reduction if you ask. There isn't a golf course in the world that doesn't divide opinion whether its rosses point or Agusta, not everyone will agree to it merits. While I'm at it, I can't stand Enniscrone, far too many blind shots, Strandhill is nice straight forward non demanding course.

TrapperChamonix

Dr Devious wrote: »

"These are improvements that will “move County Sligo back to the very pinnacle of world golf,” according to course architect Pat Ruddy.
And it will not cost members a penny. A special general meeting of the club heard on Saturday evening that a benefactor had promised to cover the costs of this first phase of work — under the strict condition that he (or she) remained anonymous.
Members heard that the work was proposed against a background of declining green fees; falling rankings for the club nationally and internationally; and a loss of profile."

Lots of emphasis on lengthening (circa 200 Yds) the course. Whats the current yardage? I would also assume it will also take in to account the erosion that has taken place last winter.
I didn't realise Ruddy was still in the design business. Just make sure he doesn't put in any railway sleepers

Loire

I'd personally hate to see the 5th change into a dogleg of all things. Would much prefer it to be made into the index 1 par 4. The other changes sound good though.

m r c

Dr Devious wrote: »

95 quid but its probably mainly for the yanks, you may be able to get a reduction if you ask. There isn't a golf course in the world that doesn't divide opinion whether its rosses point or Agusta, not everyone will agree to it merits. While I'm at it, I can't stand Enniscrone, far too many blind shots, Strandhill is nice straight forward non demanding course.

Strandhill can be very demanding on golf balls........ Lol

Rikand

Loire wrote: »

I'd personally hate to see the 5th change into a dogleg of all things. Would much prefer it to be made into the index 1 par 4. The other changes sound good though.

That would be much better but they obviously want to protect their 'par'

sydneybound

Dr Devious wrote: »

"These are improvements that will “move County Sligo back to the very pinnacle of world golf,” according to course architect Pat Ruddy.
And it will not cost members a penny. A special general meeting of the club heard on Saturday evening that a benefactor had promised to cover the costs of this first phase of work — under the strict condition that he (or she) remained anonymous.
Members heard that the work was proposed against a background of declining green fees; falling rankings for the club nationally and internationally; and a loss of profile."

Talk about win win for the members for all this work to be completed free of charge. I've played there numerous times and seen the struggles of an average member playing off 15 on a cold day in March these changes will make the course much more difficult for them who already struggle to play it but it's for the greater good I suppose.

The_Architect

sydneybound wrote: »

Talk about win win for the members for all this work to be completed free of charge. I've played there numerous times and seen the struggles of an average member playing off 15 on a cold day in March these changes will make the course much more difficult for them who already struggle to play it but it's for the greater good I suppose.

I think you probably hit the nail on the head.

Why is it for the greater good? Taking an original Harry Colt design and adding a whole bunch of penal bunkers in the Pat Ruddy style is likely to diminish the course.

Misguided. It presumes hard = good.

sydneybound

The_Architect wrote: »

Misguided. It presumes hard = good.

Im 100% with you on this.

I don't think these changes will appeal to most of the members Christ I've found the 8th plays long enough especially into the wind off single figures so not sure how the lads off 22 will get on.

The 3th & 5th may need a bit more length but I'd slightly teak the other holes than wholesale changes however that said I'm not a golf course designer!

Dealerz

I haven't played the course but assuming these changes make the course more difficult, would an avg Irish golfer paying €80 shooting a poor score or for example an American visitor shooting similar, recommend to others to play this course post these changes? Maybe Harry knew what he was doing?

TrapperChamonix

Dealerz wrote: »

I haven't played the course but assuming these changes make the course more difficult, would an avg Irish golfer paying €80 shooting a poor score or for example an American visitor shooting similar, recommend to others to play this course post these changes? Maybe Harry knew what he was doing?

Its not compulsory to use the back tees

Anatom

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Its not compulsory to use the back tees

No one said it was, to be fair.

I'm always amazed at the push by some people to make courses "harder". I see it in my own club with the long hitters / low handicappers bemoaning the move to forward tees. They still have plenty of hazards to negotiate off the shorter ones but even so, not many of them seem to be shooting the lights out on a weekly basis...

As a high handicapper I struggle enough to score well, so making the course more difficult would usually do nothing to attract me to it - at least on a regular basis.

I think the changes here are really about making this course more attractive to pro, or at least more senior, competitions (and thereby gain more profile and more income), and less about catering for members...

I've said here before that I play Waterville about once a year. Its a slice of heaven and truly makes my year. I usually get there in March / April or October / November when I get away for a couple of nights on my own. Its a significant cost (€75 the last I remember) but for the sheer pleasure of walking around it, its well worth it. It has precious little to do with my ability to score on it (as I said, I'll normally be playing on my own and I'm not a great golfer, so scoring doesn't really matter to me there) but has everything to do with the experience.

Hopefully these changes will do something similar for people playing Sligo. I only played it once, and that was about ten years ago, but I think it could help the return visitor to relate to his / her mates just how good / difficult / challenging / beautiful the place is. That should help.

Dealerz

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Its not compulsory to use the back tees

Fair point

Rikand

I agree with most of your comments, but I just want to approach this one if I may speaking as a relatively low handicapper

Anatom wrote: »

No one said it was, to be fair.

I'm always amazed at the push by some people to make courses "harder". I see it in my own club with the long hitters / low handicappers bemoaning the move to forward tees. They still have plenty of hazards to negotiate of the shorter ones, but not many of them seem to be shooting the lights out on a weekly basis...

I also prefer to play the back tees on my home course, rather than the forward ones. And its not necessarily because of the shorter course, but because of Standard Scratch.

From the back tees in Athlone. If I shoot my handicap or 1 or 2 worse than my handicap, there's a fairly decent chance I will avoid getting 0.1 back or I might even get cut.

However, from the forward tees and on the shorter course this is not possible. Just to avoid 0.1, I HAVE to beat my handicap, often by more than 1 shot as with the shorter course, the higher handicap golfer is also shooting better scores and standard scratch ends up being around 38 points. I have gotten 0.1 back for shooting 36 and that's no fun for me

Now I know I "Should" be able to better my handicap on the shorter course, but there's a lot more pressure to do so when you know you HAVE to do it and a shorter course does not necessarily make that any easier

Anatom

Rikand wrote: »

I agree with most of your comments, but I just want to approach this one if I may speaking as a relatively low handicapper

Now I know I "Should" be able to better my handicap on the shorter course, but there's a lot more pressure to do so when you know you HAVE to do it and a shorter course does not necessarily make that any easier

Fair point and I wasn't really aware of that angle.

Why would I be? I just wish I could shoot 38 points from either the front, middle or back tees...!!:) 36 would be par golf for me and I've only bettered that on one magical day in the Curragh a few years ago when I had 41...

As a matter of interest, what is the typical effect on the SS of moving the tees from the back to the middle ones?

Rikand

Anatom wrote: »

Fair point and I wasn't really aware of that angle.

Why would I be? I just wish I could shoot 38 points from either the front, middle or back tees...!!:) 36 would be par golf for me and I've only bettered that on one magical day in the Curragh a few years ago when I had 41...

As a matter of interest, what is the typical effect on the SS of moving the tees from the back to the middle ones?

in Athlone - we would have 2 course setups typically so these are how the SS's differ depending on the course

Back Tees - SS = 35 points on average
Forward Tees - SS = 38 points on average


And the tees wouldnt be that far but its amazing how the difference of a few yards can affect the mind

Loire

I've posted here a few times about Co. Sligo. I love the course and play it a few times a year. I have great memories of the course and it's been awhile since I actually scored well there. Still brings me back and when I know I am due to play it I tingle up inside. I remember my best round, standing on the 18th tee only needing a bogey to break 80 for the first time. A beaut of a drive left me an 8 or 9 iron into to the green. I hit a heavy one but as it is downhill I got away with it and it was just short and off the green. A handy chip and 2 putts and I was there. You can imagine my horror as I boned the chip into the (then) savage rough behind the green. 79 was not to be had! Another highlight was making par once on the 17th.

Anyway, I digress. Love the course and hope they don't make it too penal.

Incidently (and not meaning to offend any members here) the biggest change they could make for the better wouldn't cost a penny - being a bit nicer to visitors. You really don't get the feeling walking out of the pro shop that you are purchasing a top level product. Any other top course I've played in in Ireland and Scotland you are warmly greated and made to feel a bit special. Not so in Co. Sligo I'm afraid.

Dr Devious

For the most part the new changes won't really affect the weekend playing members, the new longer tees are mostly for the west of Ireland golfers and about 8 or 9 club comps throughout the summer months when they will be in play for everyone. Distance off the tee is one of the main drawbacks for handicappers as against low handicap/scratch golfers. That extra 50 or so odd yards makes a huge difference on your approach to the green. With the exception of a load of new bunkers and a few new and slightly tweaked greens it will still be much the same course for the members.

The_Architect

Dr Devious wrote: »

For the most part the new changes won't really affect the weekend playing members, the new longer tees are mostly for the west of Ireland golfers and about 8 or 9 club comps throughout the summer months when they will be in play for everyone. Distance off the tee is one of the main drawbacks for handicappers as against low handicap/scratch golfers. That extra 50 or so odd yards makes a huge difference on your approach to the green. With the exception of a load of new bunkers and a few new and slightly tweaked greens.

I think it is less about new back tees which fundamentally don't alter the course (although a new tee for the 5th in the roundabout on the road sounds a little too close to a gimmick that doesn't befit this particular course).

It is more about the additional bunkers that will be turning a strategic design in to a more penal one. As for the construction of those bunkers, I hope the club have had the sense to bring in a professional shaper to work alongside Mr Ruddy.

And I'm a little dubious about the greens work as well. The Colt greens at Rosses Point should not be messed with.

Dr Devious

"And I'm a little dubious about the greens work as well. The Colt greens at Rosses Point should not be messed with."

The new greens need a few bumps and spines to make it more interesting. Currently most putts are fairly straight on most of the greens as it stands. Of course its all about opinions.

The_Architect

Dr Devious wrote: »

"And I'm a little dubious about the greens work as well. The Colt greens at Rosses Point should not be messed with."

The new greens need a few bumps and spines to make it more interesting. Currently most putts are fairly straight on most of the greens as it stands. Of course its all about opinions.

Actually, I wouldn't disagree completely. They aren't the most interesting set with regards to internal contours. But the green complexes on a whole are very good.

I would just be worried that the work might lack a little subtlety, be out of character and too "modern". We will have to wait and see on that score. Hopefully it will be proven that there was nothing to worry about.

PARlance

Is there any real need to make the course more difficult?
I'm not really seeing the need when you look at the scoring there for the West of Ireland.
The SSS was 74 & 73 for the two qualifying rounds this year and the weather was fairly kind iirc. +5 over the course par over 2 days for the SSS suggests that that the course is winning despite the odd short par 5.
Admittedly I haven't really been following AM golf for that long but on first glance the top amateurs don't seem to be tearing the course apart?

I think some of main reasons citied were declining green fees, loss of notoriety/fall in rankings.
For me, the decline in green fees is a pricing thing for Irish golfers and possibly a failure of golf in the north west in general to market the courses internationally. The South West have the American market wrapped up mainly due to excellent marketing... as many will argue that there's just as much quality to be found in the NW.

If it's dropping down the rankings (mainly) against other established clubs then I think that's just a PR/marketing thing. Are the courses it's losing ground to making big course changes? If not, then it's not the course itself imo.

Of course, if someone's going to come in and pay for all this it's hard to argue with it but at first glance I can't see how it's going to change things massively.

TrapperChamonix

Strange statement from Brian Keogh. I'm unclear if it's his own statement or quoting / paraphrasing someone else?

"In the past 12 years membership has dropped; revenue from green fees has nearly halved and the club is perceived to rank no longer inside the top 10 in Ireland and the top 100 in Great Britain and Ireland"

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/10/14/county-sligo-keen-to-bring-irish-open-to-renovated-rosses-point

It may have dropped to 9 or 11 in Ireland, depending what list you look at, but Top100courses.com has it as 50th in UK & Ireland.

Would be delighted to see the Irish Open there but it would be interesting to see what their plans are. Making the course more difficult won't cut any ice if you don't come up with some money to throw into the pot.

Dr Devious

The "mystery benefactor" is going to pay about 40k towards the cost not the whole lot as the original blurb would have you believe. Its seems that was mentioned at the meeting and apparantly they weren't sure at the members meeting that the vote would get across the line if didn't sweeten it a bit, still said it wouldn't cost the members a cent though. Started digging out the new bunker on the right of the first green already, not hanging about.

Unglika Norse

There is probably only 1 person on the Irish golf scene today ( although I am only guessing) who would be willing to come up with such a deal and not want the credit for it. It would not be the first time that he has done something like this.

liam12989

its great to see the investment, an absolute classic golf course. i wonder the person donating the money if he is the re designed?

also irish open - pie in the sky stuff the infrastructure is not in place.

hawkelady

With all that work that's planned To redesign the course ,I don't think that 40k will go a long way tbh ..