Big 4 Industry or financial services audit ?

lightspeed

Hi all im applying to some of the big 4 companies and i think i have a promising chance with one in particular from speaking with them.

Im not fully sure which position or area to apply to and it would be great if someone here could advise of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

My brief understanding is that industry audit will involve long working hours and a lot of travelling. I dont mind the long working hours and i would quite like the travelling aspect of it, particularly international travel.

However, im wondering how do auditors travel? I assume by car but most of the offices in Dublin for big 4 dont seem to have much parking facilities. Would you be regularly stuck in gridlock traffic trying to make it to an audit in time?

How much international travel is there in industry audit and would there be much international travel for audit in financial services?

For financial services audit, how good to you need to be with algebra and similar complex maths? One guy i spoke with mentioned that there would sometimes be some derivatives involves but much of the work is all just done with excel so you just need to get familiar with the processes.

I did poorly in maths and leaving cert in school but that was over 10 years ago. Since then ive got a business degree, several years of work experience in customer services and im doing a postgraduate diploma in accounting and finance which will give me full cap 1 exemptions.

How complex is the maths in the areas of transactions and advisory?

How difficult is it to progress from one area to another in general? If I choose industry audit over financial services will I be closing off doors to future areas such as financial control positions etc.

Id appreciate any helpful advise people could offer regarding the above?

Thanks

tomfoolery60

lightspeed wrote: »

Hi all im applying to some of the big 4 companies and i think i have a promising chance with one in particular from speaking with them.

Im not fully sure which position or area to apply to and it would be great if someone here could advise of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

My brief understanding is that industry audit will involve long working hours and a lot of travelling. I dont mind the long working hours and i would quite like the travelling aspect of it, particularly international travel.

However, im wondering how do auditors travel? I assume by car but most of the offices in Dublin for big 4 dont seem to have much parking facilities. Would you be regularly stuck in gridlock traffic trying to make it to an audit in time?

How much international travel is there in industry audit and would there be much international travel for audit in financial services?

For financial services audit, how good to you need to be with algebra and similar complex maths? One guy i spoke with mentioned that there would sometimes be some derivatives involves but much of the work is all just done with excel so you just need to get familiar with the processes.

I did poorly in maths and leaving cert in school but that was over 10 years ago. Since then ive got a business degree, several years of work experience in customer services and im doing a postgraduate diploma in accounting and finance which will give me full cap 1 exemptions.

How complex is the maths in the areas of transactions and advisory?

How difficult is it to progress from one area to another in general? If I choose industry audit over financial services will I be closing off doors to future areas such as financial control positions etc.

Id appreciate any helpful advise people could offer regarding the above?

Thanks

Audit travel is rarely sexy (think industrial estates, business parks and limited lunch options - possibly in the Midlands). You'll get very limited international travel - audit is not high margin and big 4 are everywhere so no need to fly people about. Even if you travel abroad it's likely to be unglamorous (foreign equivalent of previous but there are sometimes exceptions). You'll rarely be in the office if in industry audit and there won't be parking (you'll have to pay to park somewhere).

As for ruling out FS if in industry, I don't think so - I know ppl who trained with me in industry who are now in FS internal audit or control. But obviously it's easier and you'll have a better idea what you are getting yourself into. Anecdotally it's an uphill struggle for FS trained auditors to move to non FS industry jobs post qualified.

To be honest follow your interest - if you like FS train there (you'll also be in Dublin CC more often which is nice). Equally if you like industry train there.

Re. Transactions and advisory, it can be mathsy but not massively so. It requires a logical ability and to be numerate - depending on why you did poorly in maths this may or may not be a problem for you. Not sure about FS maths as I've an industry background but generally there are specialists for anything very techie. Hope that helps

lightspeed

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

Audit travel is rarely sexy (think industrial estates, business parks and limited lunch options - possibly in the Midlands). You'll get very limited international travel - audit is not high margin and big 4 are everywhere so no need to fly people about. Even if you travel abroad it's likely to be unglamorous (foreign equivalent of previous but there are sometimes exceptions). You'll rarely be in the office if in industry audit and there won't be parking (you'll have to pay to park somewhere).

As for ruling out FS if in industry, I don't think so - I know ppl who trained with me in industry who are now in FS internal audit or control. But obviously it's easier and you'll have a better idea what you are getting yourself into. Anecdotally it's an uphill struggle for FS trained auditors to move to non FS industry jobs post qualified.

To be honest follow your interest - if you like FS train there (you'll also be in Dublin CC more often which is nice). Equally if you like industry train there.

Re. Transactions and advisory, it can be mathsy but not massively so. It requires a logical ability and to be numerate - depending on why you did poorly in maths this may or may not be a problem for you. Not sure about FS maths as I've an industry background but generally there are specialists for anything very techie. Hope that helps

Thanks that does help quite a bit and I appreciate the information on. However, where you mentioned "Anecdotally it's an uphill struggle for FS trained auditors to move to non FS industry jobs post qualified".

Would it be just as easy for financial services auditor to secure a financial controller position post qualified as an industry auditor?

Do you know if secondment opportunities would be as plentiful for financial service audit than industry audit in a big 4 firm?

How difficult would it be to transfer from audit into advisory down the line?

I think im set on audit as I feel im quite capable at reading financial statements or at least in exams ive done so far for financial accounting, I've scored quite well.

I did so poor in maths in school as I forgot my calculator in paper 2 so just passed from what id done in Paper 1.

Algebra and complex maths was never something I was good at or enjoyed. i understand there will be some complex number crunching but from sitting financial accounting and corporate finance exams in my degree, i find the maths used in accounting and corporate finance to be much more understandable.

One guy i spoke with from financial services audit in a big 4 said there can be some complex maths with derivatives but it is all done on excel. If it was just a matter of getting used to the processes on excel, then it might be something i can manage.

I find banking to be interesting area, at least Ive read a lot on the banking crash and the background to it as well as new requirements on the way such as Basel III.

Jim2007

lightspeed wrote: »

Would it be just as easy for financial services auditor to secure a financial controller position post qualified as an industry auditor?

Do you know if secondment opportunities would be as plentiful for financial service audit than industry audit in a big 4 firm?

Nobody can tell you what the future holds, but I can tell you that whether or not you end up landing a financial controller's position will depend very little upon what you do over the next three or four years, except for one thing passing the exams and that is enough to be getting on with.

Seriously in a career spanning perhaps 40 years or more, what you do in the next couple of years will have little impact. Your interests, your talents and your ability to network and bit of luck will have a far greater impact in the long run.

T L

lightspeed wrote: »

Thanks that does help quite a bit and I appreciate the information on. However, where you mentioned "Anecdotally it's an uphill struggle for FS trained auditors to move to non FS industry jobs post qualified".

Would it be just as easy for financial services auditor to secure a financial controller position post qualified as an industry auditor?

Do you know if secondment opportunities would be as plentiful for financial service audit than industry audit in a big 4 firm?

How difficult would it be to transfer from audit into advisory down the line?

I think im set on audit as I feel im quite capable at reading financial statements or at least in exams ive done so far for financial accounting, I've scored quite well.

I did so poor in maths in school as I forgot my calculator in paper 2 so just passed from what id done in Paper 1.

Algebra and complex maths was never something I was good at or enjoyed. i understand there will be some complex number crunching but from sitting financial accounting and corporate finance exams in my degree, i find the maths used in accounting and corporate finance to be much more understandable.

One guy i spoke with from financial services audit in a big 4 said there can be some complex maths with derivatives but it is all done on excel. If it was just a matter of getting used to the processes on excel, then it might be something i can manage.

I find banking to be interesting area, at least Ive read a lot on the banking crash and the background to it as well as new requirements on the way such as Basel III.

I believe there are at least as many secondment opportunities for someone in funds as someone in industry. I wouldn't worry too much about your maths abilities. If there are complex derivatives involving serious maths, I believe it's more likely that specialists in the firm will be dealing with them, or at the very least a senior member of the team (3+ years experience). For less complex derivatives like forwards and futures, the work is very straightforward and once you've done it once, you'll know it forever. That said, it's still unlikely you'll be doing that type of work until year 2+. If you can survive accounting and finance at college level, you'll be well able to deal with 99% of what you'll see in practice. You'll more than likely be very well supported for the other 1%.

Johnny_Fontane

Jim2007 wrote: »

Nobody can tell you what the future holds, but I can tell you that whether or not you end up landing a financial controller's position will depend very little upon what you do over the next three or four years, except for one thing passing the exams and that is enough to be getting on with.

Seriously in a career spanning perhaps 40 years or more, what you do in the next couple of years will have little impact. Your interests, your talents and your ability to network and bit of luck will have a far greater impact in the long run.

Whilst Jim is right in a career encompassing 40 years, the actual truth is completely different in 2014. Alot of people who trained in Big 4 in the 80's & 90's had the opportunity to move around from both. Things are very different now. First of all the big practices take on 300 people now yearly, whereas back in the day, they took on 50 people max. People are streamed far more now and wont get exposure to any other areas.

I have worked in recruitment since 2001 recruiting accountants (and some of you know me on here well). The decision between industry and FS audit is a critical decision in relation to where your career will go after practice.

Bottom line is that if you want to get into an Irish corporate, your CRH's, DCC, Kingspans, Smurfits etc, you simply must go into industry audit. Your FS audit experience will preclude you from positions in the large corporates from the outset and even some multinationals. In my opinion, and this is just from my experience, those people who train in industry audit have more opportunities on qualifying than those in FS Audit.

That said, those in FS audit, can specialise in some highly lucrative areas, such as Insurance (particularly reinsurance) and Aircraft leasing. The opportunities in these sectors are paid exceptionally well. You genuinely could spent 3-5 years in these sectors and command a base of €100k, its kind of mad.

I always say to candidates that if are trying to work out how you get to financial controller, want to see a career path, look at linkedin. Pick a company and look at the senior finance staff and see how they got there. Sure some take the round about way of getting there, but more have a very defined career path and, even though its kind of sad to say it, the decision between FS and Industry audit, is quite an important one.

Jim2007

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

Sure some take the round about way of getting there, but more have a very defined career path and, even though its kind of sad to say it, the decision between FS and Industry audit, is quite an important one.

Well I have not been involved in recruiting in Ireland for about 25 years... but when recruiting freshly minted accountants for multinationals over here (Switzerland) FS versus Industry is never a consideration...

The only concern is that they are very smart and have passed their exams first time after that we assume they are smart enough to figure it out. After all newly minted accountants are still inexperienced and they certainly are not going to be put in charge of anything serious for at least three or four more years.