Around The Horn 2014 1/4 Final - LORD TSC Vs thebostoncrab

beakerjoe

The final match of the last 8 is here and its a former champ in The Man of Crabbington taking on The Legend that is D.I.T. With out further ado, heres the question guys.....



Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Question 4 : Nostalgia has always had a place in many wrestling fans heart. Hunter wants to bring back a former in ring performer and turn him into a manger for one of the current WWE Superstars. Which former grappler will you choose, who will you pair them with and why? The catch is they have to be a former WWE talent not currently employed with WWE, and they can not have been a full time manager previously. Good luck


The final place in the Semi’s is at stake

thebostoncrab

Let us fast forward to the Royal Rumble. Brock Lesnar has once again defended his WWE World Heavyweight Title, and both he and Paul Heyman are watching The Royal Rumble, looking to see who will be the next toy from Brock to play with at Wrestlemania. The 40 names are all coming through and nothing is phasing either of them, not even the surprise return of Steve Blackman. Suddenly, number 35 comes out and it's Daniel Bryan. Brock suddenly looks interested. Bryan lasts the whole Rumble and is a lock to face Lesnar at Wrestlemania. Brock leaves his dressing room while Bryan celebrates and wastes no time sending a message to Bryan by F5ing him in the middle of the ring.

"You're not the winner Bryan, there are 39 winners and 1 looser whose punishment is being destroyed by my client Beerrrrrrrrrock Lllllllllessssnaiiirrrrrrrr!"

The next night Bryan address the crowd and says he knows this will be the biggest challenge of his life. He is going to have to train hard and be the very best he has ever been if he wants to take down Brock Lesnar. So, he has hired a manager, someone to help him train and to ensure that he comes out on top. His man knows Brock better than almost every else in the back. He knows his weaknesses and he knows what Brock fears. If Bryan wants to be very best, then he is going to learn from one of the best of all time. It's true, it's damn true.

*Cue the music of Kurt Angle*

Out comes Kurt to a massive ovation and confirms that he is Daniel Bryan's manager. Bryan and Kurt have a lot in common and Kurt believes that hit his help he will walk all over Brock Lesnar and while the smile off Heymans smug face.


Over the next few months Angle will be in Bryan's corner while we also get vignettes of both men training hard for Wrestlemania. This is counter balanced with videos of Lesnars training videos, as he admits himself that he needs to bring his A game at 'Mania.

Eventually 'Mania comes and Bryan defeats Lesnar, while we also get Heyman placed in an ankle lock by Angle at some stage during the match.

So, why Angle and why with Bryan? Angle is still relevant enough to get the huge pop upon his arrival, especially since he is being featured more and more on the WWE Network and TV. He has natural chemistry with anyone, and having him pair with Bryan makes since as they are very similar in style and would work very well together. Plus by bringing Lesnar into the mix you can play upon their history and you will have brilliant moments between Angle and Heyman, which would be money by themselves.

Plus you will also have the long term plan to play with; the inevitable heel turn of Angle. Over time, Kurt will have people come out and congratulated him on his work with Bryan, and other will want to hire him as a trainer. Some will start saying that Angle has made Bryan the best of all time, even better than him. Kurt's pride will take a few notches with these comments, and he will try get Bryan to work a slower style or be less flashy in an effort for him to not be seen as better than Kurt. Eventually Kurt will just snap and attack Bryan, and will take on a new client to show the world that Bryan isn't he best in the world today at all. He will align himself with his new client, Seth Rollins. The feud will eventually end with Bryan loosing the title, then the rematch. So instead of focusing on the title, he wants to show Angle that he is the better wrestle, and take him on one on one at that years Wrestlemania. A dream match that has enough time to plan for to ensure that Angle is indeed healthy enough for one more match, especially with over a year under the WWEs care.


It's true, it's damn true.

beakerjoe

Match is now LORD TSC replacing Legend versus thebostoncrab.

Have at it men. Can TSC grab redemption or will TBC keep pushing forward?

Lord TSC

When tasked with choosing a superstar on the roster and giving him a manager figure to stand beside or behind him, there’s a few questions that run through my head. Who needs a manager? Why? What does the person stand to gain? Does the person lose anything? Does it fit their character?

As such, when tasked with such a hypothetical, I have to make sure that I choose a superstar who has potential to be bigger than what they are, but are struggling at the moment, not necessarily because of their ability or their character, but because they need some sort of character behind them to bring their ability and their potential forward. Someone who can put the focus on the young up-and-comer and make them look better than they are, without fear of overshadowing them.

Looking at the roster, I think there’s a variety of upper-midcarders who have so much potential, but are just missing one or two things. So for the purpose of this question, I decided to throw my weight behind this man.

The reason I chose Bray Wyatt is because over recent months, the common complaint about the character is that for as much as he loves to talk, he doesn’t really say much; that the substance of his promos never seems up to much. He has a fantastic character, and the crowd get behind him (you only have to look at his entrance to see the crowd take to this character like few others). Yet for all the promises of converted minions, he’s never actually added to his family (even the rumors of an upcoming recruitment seem slightly underwhelming). That as a wrestler, he shows signs of being a great "Big man" but hasn't really figured out quite how to captivate. I think there’s money to be made in Bray, but I feel like he needs some sort of mentor figure, both inside the ring and on the road too. Someone who has been don the road with a similar style of character and with a similar style in the ring.

As such, I’d personally love to see him paired up with a man whose contract ended a few months back with WWE; someone who I think could add phenomenally to the characters of the Wyatt Family.

Poppa Wyatt....Mick Foley.

Much like Bray, Foley was never Mr Olympus. He was never the best built, never the handsome superstar, the typical face of the company. He wasn’t a muscle head but that didn’t mean he wasn’t a fantastic in ring performer, both on the microphone and between the ropes. As such, I think that behind the scenes, Foley would be able to teach Bray so much; the character of Mankind had a similar style to Bryan and Bray would benefit from having the man behind such a character to help him.

On screen then, the Wyatt Family could finally start working towards converting people, and who better to convert than a loveable rogue like Foley, someone everyone adores for being happy and upbeat. Only, he’s not always that way, is he? We know he has shown at times to be bitter towards WWE, it would be easy to sell a story of a man who resents being outcast because he didn’t look like Hulk Hogan or The Rock, despite being just as loved. A man who could see a possible protégé in young Bray Wyatt, someone who he could help take down the company who turned their backs on him. Foley was a man who literally jumped off cliffs for WWE, and what did he get in return? A small cheque while his face was plastered on games and shirts, a pat on the back as WWE got richer.

Imagine the image of Foley sitting in the rocking chair as Poppa Wyatt, teaching Bray (a dangerous man who has already done well against top talents) how to evolve to the next step, how to add to his repertoire and not hold back. Imagine someone who released the monster inside of Bray. An old, bitter man who (kayfabe) wants revenge against WWE and will recruit an army to take it; who sees a man already so like him, so ready to be moulded and taken to the next step. In kayfabe, the two could gel together perfectly, their characters already nearly in sync.

At his age, in his condition, we’re not looking for a long term return for Foley in the ring, we’re not going to need multiple matches out of a man with broken knees. However, you’d likely be able to get one match out of him down the road, one where Bray turns on the master and breaks free. The other members of the family can remain with Foley, still doing his bidding, still covering for the fact Foley isn’t a wrestler any more. This isn’t a story designed to build Foley up as a top level player; I think he’s the type of guy who’d be quite happy to use his legacy to help Wyatt build his own. And I think he’d help bring a direction to Bray who sorely needs it. Long term, he would facilitate the turn of Bray into a face, while still helping others to get over.

And I think that's the key to my idea; it's not about launching a broken down wrestler from decades gone as a new top level guy. Its about bringing a new top level guy into the mix, improving his abilities on every level and achieving what a good manager should; the advancement of his client.

thebostoncrab

Lord TSC wrote: »

The reason I chose Bray Wyatt is because over recent months, the common complaint about the character is that for as much as he loves to talk, he doesn’t really say much; that the substance of his promos never seems up to much. He has a fantastic character, and the crowd get behind him (you only have to look at his entrance to see the crowd take to this character like few others). Yet for all the promises of converted minions, he’s never actually added to his family (even the rumors of an upcoming recruitment seem slightly underwhelming). That as a wrestler, he shows signs of being a great "Big man" but hasn't really figured out quite how to captivate. I think there’s money to be made in Bray, but I feel like he needs some sort of mentor figure, both inside the ring and on the road too. Someone who has been don the road with a similar style of character and with a similar style in the ring.

As such, I’d personally love to see him paired up with a man whose contract ended a few months back with WWE; someone who I think could add phenomenally to the characters of the Wyatt Family.

Poppa Wyatt....Mick Foley.

Much like Bray, Foley was never Mr Olympus. He was never the best built, never the handsome superstar, the typical face of the company. He wasn’t a muscle head but that didn’t mean he wasn’t a fantastic in ring performer, both on the microphone and between the ropes. As such, I think that behind the scenes, Foley would be able to teach Bray so much; the character of Mankind had a similar style to Bryan and Bray would benefit from having the man behind such a character to help him.

On screen then, the Wyatt Family could finally start working towards converting people, and who better to convert than a loveable rogue like Foley, someone everyone adores for being happy and upbeat. Only, he’s not always that way, is he? We know he has shown at times to be bitter towards WWE, it would be easy to sell a story of a man who resents being outcast because he didn’t look like Hulk Hogan or The Rock, despite being just as loved. A man who could see a possible protégé in young Bray Wyatt, someone who he could help take down the company who turned their backs on him. Foley was a man who literally jumped off cliffs for WWE, and what did he get in return? A small cheque while his face was plastered on games and shirts, a pat on the back as WWE got richer.

Imagine the image of Foley sitting in the rocking chair as Poppa Wyatt, teaching Bray (a dangerous man who has already done well against top talents) how to evolve to the next step, how to add to his repertoire and not hold back. Imagine someone who released the monster inside of Bray. An old, bitter man who (kayfabe) wants revenge against WWE and will recruit an army to take it; who sees a man already so like him, so ready to be moulded and taken to the next step. In kayfabe, the two could gel together perfectly, their characters already nearly in sync.

At his age, in his condition, we’re not looking for a long term return for Foley in the ring, we’re not going to need multiple matches out of a man with broken knees. However, you’d likely be able to get one match out of him down the road, one where Bray turns on the master and breaks free. The other members of the family can remain with Foley, still doing his bidding, still covering for the fact Foley isn’t a wrestler any more. This isn’t a story designed to build Foley up as a top level player; I think he’s the type of guy who’d be quite happy to use his legacy to help Wyatt build his own. And I think he’d help bring a direction to Bray who sorely needs it. Long term, he would facilitate the turn of Bray into a face, while still helping others to get over.

And I think that's the key to my idea; it's not about launching a broken down wrestler from decades gone as a new top level guy. Its about bringing a new top level guy into the mix, improving his abilities on every level and achieving what a good manager should; the advancement of his client.

So, just to make sure I fully understand where you are coming from for this pairing:

-Bray, the leader of the Wyatt family, recruits Mick Foley.
-Foley becomes the leader of the Wyatt family and teaches them.

So essentially you are demoting Bray. His leadership role, something that gives an extra presence and makes him look strong, is taken away from him? How exactly does this help Bray? If anything, it makes it look like he is weak and needs outside help, and is so desperate for it he will make that person the new leader of the Wyatt family. Sure if Foley is now the boss, why would Harper or Rowan listen to Bray any more?

While I will admit in theory using Foley's rage against his history with the WWE would work, you have one major flaw: It's Mick Foley. No one is going to boo Mick Foley. No matter what Mick does, people will always cheer for him. The smart fans will always root for Mick. If you went with this angle it would die very quickly simply due to the respect Mick has from the crowd, and that is something that cannot be taken away.

If anything, putting Mick and Bray together would work wonders if Bray was kept as the leader and Mick was the poor mutt that Bray would bring out and beat to send a message to his followers. Fans will never boo Mick, so play him as someone we want to see stand up to Bray. But of course, for this to work, Mick can not be his manager.

My plan of putting Kurt with Bryan works because it's a partnership and a booking formula that is not just long term, but also one that does no damage to Bryan at all. He won't be seen as weak for getting Angle in as a manager like Bray would with Mick, as the booking plays out the exact same as a top UFC fighter having a top corner man to help him train and give advice.

Lord TSC

I would respectfully disagree that putting Angle as Bryan's manager wouldn't cause a dent to Bryan's credibility; Bryan has captured the top title a few times, has headlined a Wrestlemania where he beat HHH, Batista and Randy Orton in a single night. He's also recorded a clean win over Cena, and the YES movement has shown the crowd absolutely adore him. As such, he doesn't need the manager. He doesn't need a mouth piece, and he really shouldn't need someone "coaching" him to take on Brock.

This, then, is the crux of my problem with the proposed Bryan/Angle partnership with Angle in the managerial role; it's not something either man needs. Bryan is already seen as a top guy who can beat top guys. He shouldn't be hiding behind Angle, and it would be insulting to fans to act as if Bryan is some rookie who needs to be taught how to wrestle. Don't get me wrong, Ange vs Bryan, down the road or straight away, would be a dream match, a real money maker. But Bryan doesn't need a manager, he doesn't need to have a nostalgia character in his corner. It wouldn't add as much to Bryan's character as it would for Bray in my vision.

In many ways, what you propose is similiar to mine; Bryan, thinking he needs help, recruits Angle to teach him, raise his abilities and give him an edge. Likewise, Bray recruits Foley, not to become the leader necessarily but to mentor him, to act as a father figure who he can seek advice off, who can help him develop, not just against one opponent but many. I don't think this would take away from Bray's leadership status straight away; Foley is someone who he seeks advice from, and over time, it develops that Foley is manipulating Bray with that advice. A slow burn where Foley grows into the role of mentor and adapts it to role of puppetmaster.

You're right, the other Wyatts would slowly shift the focus of their allegiance to Foley; that Foley would develop into the leader. I referred to this in my opening post. Bray's turn would still need Foley to have people to fight on his behalf. Bray would, in time, branch away from Foley's tutelage, but the rest of the family (after a tease of "Whose side are they on?") would stay loyal to Foley, a case of Bray not being careful what he wished for. Meanwhile, Foley as leader could continue to offer his mentorship to others as well, recruiting them into his new Family.

As for the idea that fans would not boo Mick Foley, again, I disagree. It would all be down to who they paired Foley/Bray against. For instance, how about a feud against Ambrose. Should Foley come out under his new guise and cut a promo on Ambrose, calling him a lunatic and berating the fans for liking him, the fans would soon follow their roles. Placing Foley/Bray against the right face, someone loved by the smart crowds, in conjunction with Foley's ability to tell a story, would quickly have the fans playing along in the "right" manner.

In many ways, I think we're proposing a very similar idea. I simply propose that Bray is more in need of that manager than Bryan is; that Bryan does not gain nearly as much from a partnership with Angle as Bray does with Foley.

thebostoncrab

I argue that we are proposing very different ideas to be honest. Your plan devalues Bray as he no longer becomes the one with control over the Wyatt family. My plan doesn't have Bryan needing a leader, but looking to take Angle on as a trainer type role, like a UFC fighter taking on a trainer who knows how an upcoming opponent ticks.

The pairing of Angle and Bryan works in so many ways. They are very similar in both style and size, so it would make sense for Bryan to pair with Angle. And yes, Bryan doesn't need a mouthpiece for him, but CM Punk hardly needed one also but his pairing with Heyman was gold. If you put a charismatic manager with a charismatic client it becomes unmissable. They would bring out the best in one another, plus for a storyline the pairing makes sense.

Bryan is a very smart man, and he is well known for trying new styles and growing his arsenal. If he wants to take on Brock Lesnar, he wants to make sure his training will lead him to victory, so taking Angle on as a manager allows him to learn from one of the best to beat the beast. Both men help each other get over and neither outshine the other, unlike the risk you take with Foley and Bray.

Fans will always go to naturally fan cheer Mick, and putting him up against the flavour of the month would do no good, I mean you run the risk of the fans booing the face and cheering the heel, which does Bray no favours as it muddles his position. You can't deny it, fans will always cheer for Foley.

Again your plan reduces Bray from leader to follower, automatically damaging his image. You then run a huge risk of the new leader in Foley failing as a heel simple because fans will have a hard time booing Mick. Mick is also a lot more over than Bray, so he will be outshined every night.

With Bryan and Kurt, you have two men just as over as one another, with Kurt staying in Bryan corner supporting him rather than taking over the show and steering the ship. You also have the long term plan of Kurt vs Bryan a year down the line, a match that would naturally deliver more than Bray vs a banged up, run down Foley who simply can't wrestle any more. Fans don't want to see Mick like that, but TNA showed us that Kurt is still more than able to deliver, and with a year bump free!


So fans, when you go vote, do the right thing and give your vote to a dream combo that can still deliver and will give us brilliant television, while also supporting both men and allowing them to shine!

Lord TSC

I feel as if you’re trying to misrepresent the idea for the introduction of the Foley character into the Wyatt family by oversimplifying it to an extreme; I’m not purposing the idea that Foley debuts and is instantly the leader of the Wyatt family, that Bray is instantly portrayed as lower than Foley and as a mindless servent. I am offering a story that is built and developed over many months, which begins with the indoctrination of Foley into the family, with Bray seeking a mentor (very similar to how you want Angle to coach Bryan); that, at first, Bray would be after the mentorship of a legend, who isn’t telling him what to do, but how to achieve the goals Bray wants to achieve. That Bray, much like Bryan with Angle, is looking for a man to help him reach the next level. And then, through layered storytelling, through months of a building trust and developing bonds, the relationship with Foley would grow into one which Foley takes advantage of.

In time, yes, Bray would lose the family, but this does not devalue him; Wrestling Booking 101 is built on betrayal, and stables often have a member rise through them to start a coup. That, after months of development, Foley would oust Bray would not hurt Bray at all; if anything, it would create a sympathy for Bray in the fans eyes which would play into a face turn. When Bray loses the family, it would be further character development, something that has developed over months. A member of a stable can branch away from the group and gain hugely with a crowd; Batista breaking away from Evolution, Bryan and the Nexus, the current SHIELD members. A split from a stable, a restructuring of the status of its members, does not mean a devaluation of someone. Done right, the lose of his family, an ejection from a heel stable or a face turn against them, could do wonders for Bray, and a war against Foley and his minions would provide ample storytelling opportunities for a man who is foundering right now.

And that simply becomes the core of my argument right now; Bray is floundering. Bray, as things stand, is finding it difficult to not lose value. Bray needs Mick right now far, far more than Bryan needs Angle. With or without Angle, Bryan will not struggle to remain over. The fans will crave Daniel Bryan, still chanting YES as The Authority run him down week in, week out, absent from television.

Daniel Bryan does not need a manager. Bray does.

Bray needs the character development which comes from a long term storyline involving a great storyteller. Bryan vs Angle has the probability of being a very good match, but to be blunt, it doesn’t necessarily mean it would be a good partnership, and I certainly don’t think it would be a long one; fans would demand such a partnership ends quickly for the match to take place. A Foley/Bray story would develop a partnership with months and months of potential together, and many more afterwards as they war, a dark war which could encompass the entire of WWE.

Bray needs Foley, quite simply, more than Bryan needs Kurt.

beakerjoe

Poll bump as poll will close this afternoon, keep voting folks