Around The Horn 2014 1/4 Final - Omackeral (C) vs Bounty Hunter

beakerjoe

Match 2 is here in the Quarter Final and its a rematch from last year as Bounty Hunter meets the man who knocked him out and current champion Omackeral. Can BH get revenge after his defeat last year?


Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Question 2 : Many gimmicks have fallen flat over the years, and in some cases many say the wrestler themselves were to blame for the gimmicks failure. Which failed gimmick would you think could work with a different wrestler and who would ya give it to. What would you differently and why would this wrestler make the gimmick better?

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g'luck and have at it folks!

Omackeral

An excellent question with a lot of scope. There's a few ideas knocking around my head but the one I'm going to go with is probably a less obvious one. Having thought about it for the better part of the day, I'm of the opinion that this one could work and have laid out a few ideas for the character too, such as feuds and devlopment. Ladies and gents, the character I'm choosing to re-do is Vladimir Kozlov.

Let's be honest, it's hardly an awe-inspring choice is it? But that's kinda one of the main points of the question if you think about it. Kozlov, or rather the man who portrayed him, was bland. Oleg Prudius was blander than vanilla, the white crayon in the box and would be a 7 on the pH scale, for any of you chemistry nerds out there. Add to that the fact that he hadn't really a superb look and his style was very dated. He could've been Hogan fodder in a different era perhaps but, for my money, he didn't exactly fit in nicely anywhere. His English, while not Khali bad, wasn't up to much from a promo perspective.

The Kozlov character was initially rammed down our throats with him destroying jobbers with bumbling offense that didn't really do anything for anyone. He was hot shotted into main events which stunk the place out and brought those around him down e.g. Triple H and Jeff Hardy. Management began to notice this to the point where they turned him into a comedy relief face and even made up a storyline injury the day before WrestleMania just to get him off the card for the more popular and exciting Kofi Kingston. In fact Oleg Prudius, the man playing the character, was future endeavoured shortly thereafter and we haven't seen him since.

So who could have made it work? Ironically, the best man for the job in my mind, was a former tag partner of Prudius. His name? Anthony Carelli. But you may know him better as Santino Marella. That might seem like the most random and out there suggestion ever but please indulge me by watching this one minute video and tell me you can't see what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZMrOV22rRc

Forget everything you thought you knew about Santino Marella. Anthony Carelli is the real deal. While he was active in the locker room, he was among the toughest in the back that could handle himself, no doubt about it. Add to this that he's a good looking dude with a legit background in martial arts and undoubtedly one of the more naturally charismatic wrestlers we've seen a good while and you're onto a winner.

What I'd do different. Firstly, Prudius and Carelli came into WWE within months of each other. Prudius appeared first in an awful segment on Smackdown in 2006 where he said '' I love Double Double E''. It was god awful and awkward. Carelli, as Santino, came onto our screens in 2007 on Raw when he came out of the crowd to answer a challenge in Milan, Italy and scored an upset win. It was later revealed he was an Italian trained wrestler living in the States and would compete from there on out. I would do something very similar for Carelli in my scenario only this time he's a obviously a Russian living in America. This debut wouldn't necessarily have to be in Russia for this to work by the way, even a Stateside city like Minnesota or Chicago where you have a large immigrant population.

As you can hear in the video, he has the the accent down and we know, from his portrayal of Santino Marella, that he has no problem staying in that mindset. In the video, he reminds me of a cross between Steve Blackman and the ECW version of Tazz. The latter is how I'd book him. Major emphasis on throws and suplexes but with a sprinkling of the Lethal Weapons kicks. I wouldn't have him booked as an absolute babyface but rather as someone who can kick ass without being too cocky about it. After some wins over the likes of Chavo Guerrero and Jamie Noble I would have 2nd generation stars Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase of Legacy get on his case calling him a dirty immigrant with no business being in their world while heelishly flaunting their heritage. He would get the better of them in singles matches over a 3 week period spread between Raw and Smackdown and challenge them to a 2 on 1 handicap bout. After a good back and forth, he's getting the better of them unleashing his trademark throws and kicks when suddenly Legacy leader Randy Orton slithers in and nails him with an RKO. This dick move earns him sympathy to a small degree but also makes the crowd want to see him finish what he started only, now, with Randy Orton. He could have competitive matches with Orton but come up slightly short perhaps due to tactics, distractions or just a lack of kayfabe experience compared to the Viper. He would get a massive rub working with Randy and from there I would have him go on to feud with and beat MVP for the United States title saying, while he is not from here originally, he is proud to represent the American people and will be a fighting champion. The doors would be open for a multitude of options from there and you'd have a likeable, talented and dangerous upper mid carder.... instead of a bland, forgettable fotenote that the original Kozlov was.

Bounty Hunter

beakerjoe wrote: »

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Question 2 : Many gimmicks have fallen flat over the years, and in some cases many say the wrestler themselves were to blame for the gimmicks failure. Which failed gimmick would you think could work with a different wrestler and who would ya give it to. What would you differently and why would this wrestler make the gimmick better?

I considered a lot of different Gimmicks and people who could play them for this including Kozlov & santino (but ill explain why I decided against that when it comes to rebuttal time), Sin Cara, Mordecai and much much more but the Gimmick I have decided could have gone much much further than it did is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaOk3rKu15Q

This was Sean O'Haire's Devils Advocate gimmick.

Recently Sean passed away (RIP) and at the time I said how I thought they could have done much more with him but then I thought about it and tbh I barely remember him in ring at all. He was a guy that as a Rookie looked great with the emphasis on his look at 6'6 and 270 pounds but he never really developed his in ring ability since that rookie year.

Another issue was that although the Vignettes where he would tell people not to pay their taxes, not to go to church, to cheat on their spouses, and so forth were different, provocative and got people talking. He simply could not back them up in a non taped segment and couldn’t make a connection with live crowds.

He supposidly had issues outside of wrestling too with regards women, his attitude and others but with his death being recent enough and due to suicide I don't really want to delve too much into those but suffice to say they may not have helped him too much.

The Gimmick seems to be well remembered even to this day despite never really getting going and for me is a perfect example of a Gimmick that would have worked.

and who would I have chosen to do the Gimmick.

The Gimmick happened in 2003. Raven was released from the WWE in early 2003 and right before he was he had started a Puppet Master gimmick on heat which could have progressed into the Devil's Advocate gimmick with him controlling others and making them give in to their desires and sinning.

The potential is clear for anyone to see as later that year in reality he started a several month long feud with CM Punk based around Punk's straight-edge lifestyle as opposed to Levy's years of drug and alcohol abuse during the height of his fame in the late nineties.

This feud not only highlighted that as seen in ECW and elsewhere Raven could be great on both the Mic and in the ring but also how he would excel in what has been described many times as essentially an anti CM / Straight Edge character / Gimmick. Imagine if this character took off then less than 2 years later when Punk actually arrived in the WWE there would be the perfect feud waiting for him (im booking the entire history eof everything now right )

This is also a gimmick that could lead to a group of followers, an anti-straight edge society if you will. A group of sinners following raven's lead and as he showed with his Flock and The Gathering, he is more than capable of leading a stable and now he would be able to show that potential in the WWE especially with a Puppet Master / Devil's Advocate type gimmick.

Raven is also someone

Omackeral

Scott Levy as the Devil's advocate. Interesting choice. There's something there perhaps. But, for my money, it's just on the wrong side of the Raven era. Had this been pitched maybe 5 years earlier I could maybe get on board with it but this is 2003 we're talking about. By then, Raven had gone to TNA and was an absolute shell of his former self. His good looks had deteriorated and he was creeping onto the wrong side of 40. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The Devil's Advocate character really needed someone slick looking and smooth who could charm. Levy at this point, was looking worse for wear owing to his drug fuelled lifestyle of the 1990's. Why would you wanna take advice from someone who looks like that? Why would you want to look the way he does? O'Haire, on the other hand looked a million bucks in his suave suits and was just in his early 30's with chiseled handsome looks. The Raven character that had Flocks and Nests and Gatherings attracted lowlifes and misfits not middle America or you or me, which is what the gimmick was all about.


Another thing I'm not sure of is are we calling him Raven still or is he Scott Levy or a new name? Because, to me, it sounds like you're tweaking/evolving the Raven character rather than rebooting the Devil's Advocate. Would we acknowledge his past as Raven or would he be a separate entity altogether along the lines of say K-Kwik and R-Truth, or more fittingly, Johnny Polo and Raven?


I get parts of what you're saying but, for me, it's creative that dropped the ball with Sean O'Haire rather than Sean O'Haire screwing up as the Advocate. Go on any online wrestling forum (obviously PW Boards is the best:P) and see are there any threads on who WWE dropped the ball with. 99/100 there'll be people saying it was Sean O'Haire. But hey.... I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Bounty Hunter

Thanks Omackeral in your reply I actually think you have highlighted some real positives for my idea, let me explain what I mean :pac:

Omackeral wrote: »

Scott Levy as the Devil's advocate. Interesting choice. There's something there perhaps. But, for my money, it's just on the wrong side of the Raven era. Had this been pitched maybe 5 years earlier I could maybe get on board with it but this is 2003 we're talking about. By then, Raven had gone to TNA and was an absolute shell of his former self.

According to Pro Wrestling Illustrated he was ranked #22 of the top 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2003, higher than they ranked him any other year. It was also the year that as mentioned he had a great several month long feud with CM Punk, which caught peoples attention both in the ring and promo wise. If anything this was the perfect time to give him such a push

His good looks had deteriorated and he was creeping onto the wrong side of 40. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. The Devil's Advocate character really needed someone slick looking and smooth who could charm. Levy at this point, was looking worse for wear owing to his drug fuelled lifestyle of the 1990's. Why would you wanna take advice from someone who looks like that? Why would you want to look the way he does?

Perfect, it is ideal imo for the character that is enticing people to a darker path to become sinners etc to really be a creepy slimeball underneath it all and this could be revealed and pointed out either through his opponents promos or through them destroying the facade / illusion he creates of himself by slicking back his hair, wearing a suit or whatever it is he does.

Portray him as being succesful and then you immediately have why people would take his advice. Have him say that he cheated, he took drugs etc and yet look at him now banging Divas and rolling in cash.

The Raven character that had Flocks and Nests and Gatherings attracted lowlifes and misfits not middle America or you or me, which is what the gimmick was all about.

This Raven character could attract middle America by showing his success despite cutting corners. By pointing out to them that nice guys don't always get their just deserts and that cheaters do prosper. The thing is though and what would def work visually from a storyline perspective is that he would instead eventually turn them into the lowlives you mentioned, he would corrupt and destroy them and get many feuds with these people and their friends backstage who are trying to save them as a result.

Another thing I'm not sure of is are we calling him Raven still or is he Scott Levy or a new name? Because, to me, it sounds like you're tweaking/evolving the Raven character rather than rebooting the Devil's Advocate.

Sounds like a great Idea to me, thanks man Why not call him Scott Levy when he starts slicking back his hair, preaching to the unwashed masses and telling them what they already know. Then the face commentators and the wrestlers pitted against him could refer to the fact that he is still Raven underneath and that they werent falling for all his talk etc The question did say What would you differently and why would this wrestler make the gimmick better afterall so why not tweak the gimmick to suit the guy playing it perfectly.

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Then I move on to Kozlov:

Are you recasting the Kozlov gimmick or just every Russian Gimmick ever here? becuase iirc the Kozlov gimmick was not supposed to be likeable or entertaining (not in the sense that it was supposed to be bad obviously) I mean the guy had no entrance music and no TitanTron video when he made his way to the ring. He was meant to be just a serious brute. He was supposed to be intimidating and the character was supposidly based around the Drago character in Rocky 4.

Now im sure Santino could do serious but he has too much personality for the Kozlov gimmick imo, it would be a real shame to keep that all back. I for one loved Santino Marella. Yeah its a pity the character somewhat held back a talented wrestler but he was entertaining as hell and tbh The WWE at that time would never book a wrestler his size as a real ass kicker I mean they didn't even do it with Taz after his first match and he had already been booked as one for years in ECW portraying essentially the same character. Speaking of the WWE they obviously also agreed that Anthony Carelli was better suited to a role where his comedic personality could shine through afterall they saw far more his OVW gimmick than the 1 min promo that most of us have seen (hopefully all now that you posted it) and decided to change his gimmick before he got to the main roster.

However if you are simply just picking the Russian gimmick instead of actually Kozlov as suggested then I guess I can understand the sweeping changes like giving him Santino's backstory or actually now that I talk about Santino in OVW is it that you didnt pick to change Kozlovs gimmick at all but to allow Santino to use his OVW gimmick which apart from being Russian is actually a different gimmick to Kozlovs?

Either way in the WWE I still think he would end up a Russian Santino (i.e a comedy act) within a year or so.

beakerjoe

Poll up folks, 1 rebuttal left each

Omackeral

Let me hit back straight away at the perceived comedy gimmick being a dead cert. If you read my OP, you will see that I booked him with a lot of upside such as feuding with Rhodes/DiBiase and then Randy Orton. This was after his initial debut and having matches with Chavo, Noble etc. Then I put him in the US title scene and a back and forth with MVP. From there you could have him come into contention with a Money in the Bank win and threaten WWE Champion Orton again, having gained more experience. That's a good 9 months programme so far.

As for your Drago references. Sure you could turn him heel and get even more mileage out of that. Nothing that makes him a dancing joke. See Umaga as a reference point, never became a punchline character because the man playing the gimmick, Eddie Fatu, could have realistic battles, unlike Oleg Prudius or Dalip Singh Rana (The Great Khali).

The natural humour you have mentioned with Santino, or rather Carelli, could then be harnessed at a later date and used for a run on the good guy side if needs be. Rocky Maivia came in as a babyface in 1996 and it didn't work too well. Then they turned him heel and he started coming into his own to the point where his natural charisma started to shine through and he organically became face again. No reason to suggest this couldn't happen to Carelli.

The reason I showed the Boris Alexiev segment from OVW was to showcase what it would be like to have Carelli play the Vladimir Kozlov character. The fact they are similar i.e. Russian fighters wanting competition only strengthens my case that Carelli would have no problem getting the part nailed on. They are in essence, fairly similar gimmicks anyway, let's be honest.

Raven being named as number 22 in the PWI 500 is a case of a former, and I do mean former, big name being recognisable in the small pond of TNA. Big Show was ranked 6th best wrestler in the entire world that year anyway so I wouldn't exactly be using that as a blue print for my argument.

It really just seems like you're giving washed up old Raven another run here. This is the guy that was on Heat for the last couple of his years in WWE. Being the grungy cultish type dude he was in ECW and WCW was cool in the mid and late 1990's but it doesn't work as the ultra slick enticing salesman in the new Millenium.

Anthony Carelli was 27 at the time I was bringing him up. Fresh, new, exciting and looked a million bucks. Scott Levy turned 50 last month. But even ten years ago he looked like he was living out of that shopping cart he used to wheel around.

Bounty Hunter

Let me also hit back straight away...

You call Raven washed up at that point and in doing so ignore that as pointed out after he left the WWE he spent the next year having an absolutely great feud both in ring and promo wise with CM Punk so to be honest that makes little sense. Yes it is giving an experienced wrestler another run instead of a young up and comer but thats why the Gimmick would work now when it didn't before when it was given to a guy that couldnt talk in front of live crowds like Raven could nor had he progressed to be able to have the type of matches Raven could.

You again highlight that Raven's image but as stated that is actually ideal for this slightly tweaked character. We were asked what we would do differently and Raven having this image and his past would actually add to the character as he could talk, no preach to others using himself as an example of someone who took drugs, who cheated and yet he has been rewarded. The fact that it would be clearly all surface image and that he would be the same lowlife Raven beneath is actually ideal on so many levels image wise for a bad guy, especially with regards giving the faces something to play off.

In contrast you say you showed Santinos OVW video to highlight how he could play the Kozlov character but we were asked to have someone take on a gimmick not a character. Kozlov is either not a Gimmick and is a character or the Gimmick is just being a Russian (but thats not what you said in your answer).

The Kozlov gimmick was the Drago style big Russian hardman, symbolizing America's perception of Russia: immense, powerful, and emotionless. It included a unique entrance with no music, lighting or titantron video and also saw him demanding better competition as he destroyed all those around him.

Now I know I highlighted how we were expected to make some changes but Anthony Carelli is not Russian (Kozlov was Ukrainian, Putin says it counts ), he's not big, he wouldnt exactly symbolize the Drago image of Russians americans have of Russians. You made no mention in your answer of his entrance but having him debut as a face I assume that would be completely different too and from the sounds of your plans for him he wouldn't be destroying opponents... so how is he at all like the Kozlov gimmick outside of being Russian? sounds to me like you just decided Santino doing his OVW gimmick would be awesome and that could be true if done right (sadly I don't think the WWE would pull it off) but thats not exactly him taking on a Kozlov gimmick now is it?

Meanwhile Raven becoming a Devils Advocate would just be a natural progression of what he had been doing in early 2003, he would have the mic skills and in ring ability to pull it off and he has already shown elsewhere he could lead a stable and it is the perfect type of gimmick for a stable to be formed around with followers or disciples believing what he preaches.




btw Good debate man and may the best Gimmick re-cast win!

beakerjoe

Our first Semi Finalist has been found and we are guaranteed a new champion this year as current Champ Omackeral bows out at the hands of the man he beat last year in the first round, Bounty Hunter.

Great debate guys. Congrats BH and very unlucky Mr O'Mac