Stop Enda to enrich the rich

newparty

Reduction in top rate of income tax:

middle income high income
45 k person's gain 200 k person's gain

cut top rate by 1 % 130 Euro 1680 Euro
(government proposal)

increase tax band
by 2000 Euro 410 Euro 410 Euro
(alternative proposal)

Calculation is done on assumption that all income over 32 k is taxed at top rate of tax.
Even more dramatic for middle income family with one income government proposed gain is only 30 Euro.

Make conclusions for yourself.

endacl

I wish people would stop the Enda bashing!

:mad::mad::mad:

newparty

Sorry, formatting was lost in original post. So sending again.
Reduction in top rate of income tax.

Cut top rate by 1 %
(government proposal)
middle income 45 k person's gain = 130 Euro
high income 200 k person's gain = 1680 Euro

Increase tax band by 2000 Euro
(alternative proposal)
middle income 45 k person's gain = 410 Euro
high income 200 k person's gain = 410 Euro

Calculation is done on assumption that all income over 32 k is taxed at top rate of tax.
Even more dramatic for middle income family with one income government proposed gain is only 30 Euro.
Make conclusions for yourself.

johnnyskeleton

He should reduce the income levy not thr tax band. The income levy was supposed to be temporary

Rightwing

endacl wrote: »

I wish people would stop the Enda bashing!

:mad::mad::mad:

I agree, far better than the 2 morons that preceded him, not that that is saying a whole lot.

jimmycrackcorm

Op, why not also give the figures about how much tax a 45k earner pays vs a 200k earner.

nice_guy80

The USC has to be reduced.
That is the charge that is really stripping money off working people's wages

padd b1975

nice_guy80 wrote: »

The USC has to be reduced.
That is the charge that is really stripping money off working people's wages

It's a serious cash cow.

Any changes going the other way are going to create a hole that will need filling from somewhere....

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

I agree, far better than the 2 morons that preceded him, not that that is saying a whole lot.

WHOOOOOSH!!

That's the sound of his post going over your head...

(Hint: read his username, and recompute...)

Godge

newparty wrote: »

Sorry, formatting was lost in original post. So sending again.
Reduction in top rate of income tax.

Cut top rate by 1 %
(government proposal)
middle income 45 k person's gain = 130 Euro
high income 200 k person's gain = 1680 Euro

Increase tax band by 2000 Euro
(alternative proposal)
middle income 45 k person's gain = 410 Euro
high income 200 k person's gain = 410 Euro

Calculation is done on assumption that all income over 32 k is taxed at top rate of tax.
Even more dramatic for middle income family with one income government proposed gain is only 30 Euro.
Make conclusions for yourself.

What is your point?

This is no country for people who work hard and make money.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

He should reduce the income levy not thr tax band. The income levy was supposed to be temporary

What income levy????

nice_guy80 wrote: »

The USC has to be reduced.
That is the charge that is really stripping money off working people's wages

The USC actually hits the high earners hard. It is levied on things like rental income that are often exempt from income tax.

Farmer Pudsey

USC is actually hated by the higher income people and the self employed. It hits everything. It is charge on rental income, it is not allowable against capital depreciation. The cost of reducing it will be much more than what is allowable in this years budget.

There is another factor as well, we exclude or give preferential tax treatment to many. The USC catches most of these. The people who got hit the most to get the country's finances back in order were the middle and higher income workers. In one way it is right that these should be first to receive from the recovery. Reducing USC will again start to leave PAYE as the main source of income tax and when a recession happens down the line again we will again have a disfuctional tax system again.

Marginal tax rates are at 52 and 55% for the higher income people. We need to keep our eye on the ball and not slip back into a tax system that is not fit for purpose. My own preference would be to increase the tax bands to encourage those on marginal incomes to stay in the labourforce or to return to same.

Phoebas

newparty wrote: »

Reduction in top rate of income tax:

middle income high income
45 k person's gain 200 k person's gain

cut top rate by 1 % 130 Euro 1680 Euro
(government proposal)

increase tax band
by 2000 Euro 410 Euro 410 Euro
(alternative proposal)

Calculation is done on assumption that all income over 32 k is taxed at top rate of tax.
Even more dramatic for middle income family with one income government proposed gain is only 30 Euro.

Make conclusions for yourself.

There is no such government proposal.

Valetta

Budget 2014 was last October.

BoJack Horseman

Aside from increasing the upper tax band to say; 40-ish k per annum, I think income taxes are in a pretty good spot.

The USC provides good baseline income & ended the huge FF disaster that was having a huge swathe of the population paying next to no income tax at all.

I'd prefer to see taxes on consumption & investment/savings fall.

Idbatterim

this debate is far more complex than it might first appear, but low income workers, certainly under 18k are contributing virtually nothing, it means that those on the marginal rate are crucified, at that level at that threshold, it is simple madness. Having two bands is off the wall and we must be unique in Europe with that, there should be four bands in my opinion and under no circumstance should the government be pocketing more than you, i.e. top rate should be no more than 49% IMO and that would be on serious money i.e 150k plus at a minimum!

There is a lot of noise about no jobs this, no jobs that, ask yourself, if you were self employed, in a position to work harder and pay yourself 10,000 to give back 5,500 to the government, how bothered would you be? Its great all the moaning and groaning on Afterhours about jobsbridge and the "let them pay attitude" but with all due respect, these aren't the people who create jobs. I am in the family business, with the marginal rate and employers PRSI, if I want to pay myself an extra 10,000 over the marginal rate, it is 52% plus 10.75% employers PRSI, so I pocket E3725 and those parasites confiscate E6275 t squander on it on the usual waste and wasters...

AlexisM

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am in the family business, with the marginal rate and employers PRSI, if I want to pay myself an extra 10,000 over the marginal rate, it is 52% plus 10.75% employers PRSI, so I pocket E3725 and those parasites confiscate E6275 t squander on it on the usual waste and wasters...

I totally agree with everything in your post but the tax economics aren't quite as bad as you think.

If your business has 10K to spend on you, all in, then you would be given a gross of 9029 on which employers PRSI of 971 would be paid (total out of the business = 9029 gross to you + 971 employers PRSI = 10,000). You would then pay 52% of the 9,029 in tax/prsi/usc leaving you with 4,334. Between personal and employer taxes, the government gets 5,666 (almost 57%) and you get 4,334.

I know these calculations well unfortunately. I have a US employer which has a bonus pot for employees who are in various countries. If the bonus pot has 10K for me, it has 10K for me, not 10K + 10.75% employers PRSI (which I sadly accept is fair to my colleagues in other countries). So I have to suck up the employers PRSI as well giving me a marginal tax rate of 57% on my bonus income. I have US colleagues who take home 6,500-7,000 where I take home 4,334.

hmmm

Those who pay by far and away the most tax (i.e. the above middle income worker) need to be given a carrot to go out and create wealth. No-one else is going to pay for all this "free" stuff the rest of Ireland seems to demand.

Rightwing

hmmm wrote: »

Those who pay by far and away the most tax (i.e. the above middle income worker) need to be given a carrot to go out and create wealth. No-one else is going to pay for all this "free" stuff the rest of Ireland seems to demand.

Agreed, but only in the private sector, the high paid in the PS are the amongst the biggest liabilities in society, the likes of the Cork lord mayor on more than the Spanish PM.

Godge

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

USC is actually hated by the higher income people and the self employed. It hits everything. It is charge on rental income, it is not allowable against capital depreciation. The cost of reducing it will be much more than what is allowable in this years budget.

There is another factor as well, we exclude or give preferential tax treatment to many. The USC catches most of these. The people who got hit the most to get the country's finances back in order were the middle and higher income workers. In one way it is right that these should be first to receive from the recovery. Reducing USC will again start to leave PAYE as the main source of income tax and when a recession happens down the line again we will again have a disfuctional tax system again.

Marginal tax rates are at 52 and 55% for the higher income people. We need to keep our eye on the ball and not slip back into a tax system that is not fit for purpose. My own preference would be to increase the tax bands to encourage those on marginal incomes to stay in the labourforce or to return to same.

Very good points I agree with.

In fact I think it would be possible to increase the USC rates by 1% while reducing the income tax rates by 2%, giving a saving to those who are working while only punishing those who you mention and also reducing the marginal rate.

Godge

AlexisM wrote: »

I totally agree with everything in your post but the tax economics aren't quite as bad as you think.

If your business has 10K to spend on you, all in, then you would be given a gross of 9029 on which employers PRSI of 971 would be paid (total out of the business = 9029 gross to you + 971 employers PRSI = 10,000). You would then pay 52% of the 9,029 in tax/prsi/usc leaving you with 4,334. Between personal and employer taxes, the government gets 5,666 (almost 57%) and you get 4,334.

I know these calculations well unfortunately. I have a US employer which has a bonus pot for employees who are in various countries. If the bonus pot has 10K for me, it has 10K for me, not 10K + 10.75% employers PRSI (which I sadly accept is fair to my colleagues in other countries). So I have to suck up the employers PRSI as well giving me a marginal tax rate of 57% on my bonus income. I have US colleagues who take home 6,500-7,000 where I take home 4,334.

Employers PRSI or social security is higher in some other countries.

The big difference in Ireland was the removal of the PRSI ceiling.

Idbatterim

Those who pay by far and away the most tax (i.e. the above middle income worker) need to be given a carrot to go out and create wealth. No-one else is going to pay for all this "free" stuff the rest of Ireland seems to demand.

yeah exactly the point I was making. Like I said, the rates p*ss me off, but I'm alright Jack, but for those who dont have jobs, wondering why more are not being created quicker or thinking let them pay, to be honest, they are the real losers out of the situation, actually its simply a lose lose situation... There have been a lot of articles in the independent recently about particularly the US multinationals saying it is damaging us, we educate people at great expense and how many of the ones we want to stay are leaving?

tayto lover

USC actually hits the high earners hard. It is levied on things like rental income that are often exempt from income tax.[/QUOTE]

It is levied at every cent we earn, was supposed to be temporary too.

Rightwing

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah exactly the point I was making. Like I said, the rates p*ss me off, but I'm alright Jack, but for those who dont have jobs, wondering why more are not being created quicker or thinking let them pay, to be honest, they are the real losers out of the situation, actually its simply a lose lose situation... There have been a lot of articles in the independent recently about particularly the US multinationals saying it is damaging us, we educate people at great expense and how many of the ones we want to stay are leaving?

That's a complex societal issue. We can get in cheaper labour from Asia. better here than there, same with the young here, they can do better abroad and there is little the State can do (unless major reform of the system).

AlexisM

Godge wrote: »

Employers PRSI or social security is higher in some other countries.

The big difference in Ireland was the removal of the PRSI ceiling.

Yes, most countries have ceilings on their social security contributions because, mad connecting concept, benefits are capped. I could just about stomach uncapped PRSI if there was SOME connection between contributions (by amount not number) but, above a very low level, there just isn't.

Even worse, the contributory pension is largely based on numbers of contributions rather than amount - so you could have someone on 250K pa contributing 10K PRSI pa for 25 years (250K in total) - getting a lower pension than someone on 25K contributing 1K pa for 30 years (30K in total)...

macraignil

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah exactly the point I was making. Like I said, the rates p*ss me off, but I'm alright Jack, but for those who dont have jobs, wondering why more are not being created quicker or thinking let them pay, to be honest, they are the real losers out of the situation, actually its simply a lose lose situation... There have been a lot of articles in the independent recently about particularly the US multinationals saying it is damaging us, we educate people at great expense and how many of the ones we want to stay are leaving?

Reducing the higher rate of tax will benefit those on higher incomes and not those on lower incomes. I don't believe it is only high income earners that attract multinationals to do business in this country. With one of the largest national debts in the world, why would we change our tax system to help the p*ssed off higher paid? The costs of living in this country for everone have increased(water charges for example) and it is not just the better paid who should be given tax relief first in my opinion.

dubrov

There are plenty of people on the higher tax band who could work more but aren't bothered given the government tax take.

Many people opt to spend less rather than stretch themselves

hfallada

What about all the tax credits for OAPs? One of the canon of taxation is equity. How is it far that an OAP, who probably has no mortgage or supporting children, pays less tax than a family? It isnt far and was clearly a way to buy votes from OAPs one year in an election

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax_credits_and_reliefs/older_peoples_tax_credits_and_reliefs.html

mistermouse

At this time of the year the small self-employed people really have to look at how this country operates. Putting together your accounts that show how hard it is to get paid, paying PRSI etc on all even small profits with no benefits and knowing that you are more likely to have revenue come to your door than people who do defraud the state through social welfare.

If anything the government should empower, staff and mandate a large team to crack down on Social Welfare fraud, they should also tackle how many of the crimes committed are criminals who also claim social welfare we need a CAB style approach to it.

The scariest thing you could do in this country is set up your own business, it seems the easiest thing you can do is be on social welfare.... its plainly wrong and most people I know on long term social welfare never actually vote, I am amazed politicians pander to them at every election or budget