Trainee Salary

Riverp10

Hi all,


Apologies if this has been discussed in a previous thread but I can't seem to find an answer. I was just wondering if anyone had any firm indication of what kind of salary Trainee Solicitors are receiving, in firms that are big enough to pay Blackhall fees (Top 9/10?)

Obviously not expecting people to divulge exact figures, but a ballpark would be very helpful

XxMCRxBabyxX

From what I'm aware the top 5 range from €36k to €40k. I don't know about others.

Riverp10

Yeah that's around what I've heard, I was mainly wondering about how much of a drop off there was from top 5 to the next tier

CardinalJ

You could send up from anywhere around 22 up.

Mr. Incognito

Of the course i was on comfortably a quarter were getting no salary at all

dashdoll

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Of the course i was on comfortably a quarter were getting no salary at all

I genuinely feel for people that have to do this.

On one hand, fair play as it shows determination and sacrifice but on the other hand, in this day and age it is so unlikely that someone will be able to afford blackhall fees plus rent and living costs in dublin on zilch unless you're a trust fund kid.
No banks are going to throw 20k at someone when the prospects upon qualification may not be great.

sin0city

Not only is it unfair, as far as I know it's illegal.
Unfortunately people are desperate to secure traineeships and firms are happy to pay them nothing. It's exploitation couched as doing you a favour.

The Law Society strongly recommend not doing your traineeship for free and most people can't unless they're living at home or their family is supporting them.

Most places I've gone into have been offering the law society rates, otherwise known as minimum wage. €36k to €40k :rolleyes:

chops018

I was doing a traineeship for a short while up until recently.

I understood upon accepting that they were not going to pay my blackhall fees or any salary whilst on PPC, but I wasn't getting any other offers for traineeships so I gave it a go.

Shortly in I realised I couldn't get the money together without being paid a wage while in Blackhall and had to pack it in. A pity, but hey you have 5 years to start an apprenticeship and qualify from the 31st of whatever year you pass your FE1's so you do have a bit of time (I just passed my last FE1 in March so I have the full 5 years to go thankfully), but you do want to get qualified as quick as possible.

And it's not like college where you the fees aren't as large and you have time to go off and work part time somewhere. So doing it fully for free is out of the question for the majority of people. Most firms don't pay the fees these-days however.

Daryl Strawberry

I'm aware that sadly it does come down to being lucky enough to get a big firm contract, I was just trying to get a ballpark of what the salary was like in the firms that do pay a full salary, outside of the top 5, e.g Dillon Eustace, Eversheds, Byrne Wallace etc.

AndonHandon

From what I have heard EFC only cover half your Blackhall fees and they pay a wage of approximately €20k, DE pay your fees and a wage of approximately €28k. Out of the big five, salaries range from €36k - €42k.

Dandelion6

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Of the course i was on comfortably a quarter were getting no salary at all

I hear that a current PPC-I student caused a bit of a stir, during a seminar with the Law Society training section, by announcing that one of the solicitors giving lectures on the course isn't paying their trainees

Mr. Incognito

I believe there used to be a covenant in the Indentures that the training solicitor covenanted to pay.

Under the minimum wage act the trainees are entitled to minimum wage. When this came in the law society removed the covenant to pay from the Indentures.

If you think about it they have the trainees on one hand telling them they are not getting paid and don't they require they have the firms accounts on the other?

Are there not issues with this?

sin0city

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I believe there used to be a covenant in the Indentures that the training solicitor covenanted to pay.

Under the minimum wage act the trainees are entitled to minimum wage. When this came in the law society removed the covenant to pay from the Indentures.

If you think about it they have the trainees on one hand telling them they are not getting paid and don't they require they have the firms accounts on the other?

Are there not issues with this?

I think there are major issues. As you point out, it's a breach of the act.

Also, payment by way of salary is referred to in the Indentures. From the example Indentures of Apprentice Deed on the Law Society website:

"In consideration of the mutual covenants hereinafter contained and of the future payments by way of salary made by the training solicitor to the trainee solicitor, the trainee solicitor hereby binds himself/herself as a trainee solicitor to the training solicitor..."

Correct me if I'm wide of the mark here but if someone ever managed to get it to court I suppose they'd seek specific performance with the possibility of punitive damages? Even though you'd agreed to no pay that agreement can't override your statutory rights, right? It'd make for an enjoyable traineeship anyway! It might put an end to unpaid traineeships though.

What confuses me about it is the Law Society knows what's going on but are doing nothing about it except advising people who are desperate to secure traineeships not to accept unpaid ones. Shouldn't they be addressing this. Things are picking up and unpaid traineeships are a legacy of a recession that is no more. Surely the vast majority can well afford to at least pay minimum wage.

dashdoll

Dandelion6 wrote: »

I hear that a current PPC-I student caused a bit of a stir, during a seminar with the Law Society training section, by announcing that one of the solicitors giving lectures on the course isn't paying their trainees

Good, because if it's true, it's shameful behaviour!

mirm

chops018 wrote: »

I was doing a traineeship for a short while up until recently.

I understood upon accepting that they were not going to pay my blackhall fees or any salary whilst on PPC, but I wasn't getting any other offers for traineeships so I gave it a go.

Shortly in I realised I couldn't get the money together without being paid a wage while in Blackhall and had to pack it in. A pity, but hey you have 5 years to start an apprenticeship and qualify from the 31st of whatever year you pass your FE1's so you do have a bit of time (I just passed my last FE1 in March so I have the full 5 years to go thankfully), but you do want to get qualified as quick as possible.

And it's not like college where you the fees aren't as large and you have time to go off and work part time somewhere. So doing it fully for free is out of the question for the majority of people. Most firms don't pay the fees these-days however.

Sorry chops i know this has been asked loads of times before but do your five years start from the date you passed your first four or when you pass all 8?

Mr. Incognito

mirm wrote: »

Sorry chops i know this has been asked loads of times before but do your five years start from the date you passed your first four or when you pass all 8?

It's the December in the year you pass your last exam I believe

Valentine1

AndonHandon wrote: »

From what I have heard EFC only cover half your Blackhall fees and they pay a wage of approximately €20k, DE pay your fees and a wage of approximately €28k. Out of the big five, salaries range from €36k - €42k.

If it is true that EFC only pay half your fees I'm appalled.

Otherwise this matches what I have seen and heard, big 5 pay fees and between 36K and 40K, the tier below that are about 28k and after that the wages drop pretty dramatically, from what I Understand most third tier firms are paying minimum wage or just above.

Many many people with independent firms are not being paid and certainly not while at Blackhall. It's very easy for the Law Society to advise not to accept such traineeships but the alternative is just as bleak, wait for a better TC to come along? Find a different job after spending years studying? It is a very difficult thing to do but at least it is a form of progression.

sin0city

Valentine1 wrote: »

Many many people with independent firms are not being paid and certainly not while at Blackhall. It's very easy for the Law Society to advise not to accept such traineeships but the alternative is just as bleak, wait for a better TC to come along? Find a different job after spending years studying? It is a very difficult thing to do but at least it is a form of progression.

I agree that there aren't a lot of options and it is a form of progression but it's wrong. Ethically, morally and more to the point, legally. I don't understand it. Isn't it the case that The Law Society is fully aware that many of its members are doing something that is against the law and are standing idly by while it happens?

Grolschevik

I asked someone in the Law School about this a couple of years ago, and they said that they'd heard rumours and anecdotes only.

I got the impression that it would take a formal complaint, with evidence, before they would/could do anything.

Came across as real 'head in the sand' stuff...

MarkAnthony

sin0city wrote: »

I agree that there aren't a lot of options and it is a form of progression but it's wrong. Ethically, morally and more to the point, legally. I don't understand it. Isn't it the case that The Law Society is fully aware that many of its members are doing something that is against the law and are standing idly by while it happens?

Grolschevik wrote: »

I asked someone in the Law School about this a couple of years ago, and they said that they'd heard rumours and anecdotes only.

I got the impression that it would take a formal complaint, with evidence, before they would/could do anything.

Came across as real 'head in the sand' stuff...

It has to be borne in mind that resolving this issue would result in a decline in the number of training contracts. The Law Society has no interest in doing that for a number of reasons, the most cynical of which, is that they'd have less fees coming in. I agree it's unfair but it some cases it's the only way people are going to get a training contract.

Daryl Strawberry

Agreed ^, people aren't forced to take them. If the compensation while training is too small then they should choose another occupation

Dandelion6

Daryl Strawberry wrote: »

Agreed ^, people aren't forced to take them. If the compensation while training is too small then they should choose another occupation

The problem with that is that it perpetuates the class bias in the profession. I don't think it's good for society to have a legal profession that effectively excludes people who couldn't afford to work for free for 2+ years.

Also it contributes to a race to the bottom in trainee wages even for those who are being paid.

05588081

Hi there, I am starting Blackhall in September this year and I was just wondering has anybody seen an improvement in trainee salaries and fees paid. Anyone willing to share examples of salary and fees offered?

05588081

Hi there, I am starting Blackhall in September this year and I was just wondering has anybody seen an improvement in trainee salaries and fees paid. Anyone willing to share examples of salary and fees offered?