How the professional era came about?

S12b

Hi all,

As a younger poster, I'm looking to learn a bit about how the game went professional. Could anybody direct me to some sites/articles/sources discussing it

* did certain countries lead the way or was it a coordinated move
* what was the perception in Ireland at the time
* was it an instant success or were there big issues in the early days
* how did it work financially.....government backing or how did they make things balance?

Thanks

CatFromHue

It was mainly a Southern Hemisphere led thing, I think some of the Northern Hemisphere nations were very against it.

In Ireland the IRFU were against it as far as I know and initially it wasn't a success as alot of our best players went to England to play pro rugby. In Ireland at the time there was only AIL rugby, a few interpros, and some new competition called the Heineken Cup which initially only had 4 pool games I think. In England they'd a proper pro league, what's now the Aviva Premiership, with some, at the time, seriously backed financially teams. Ireland's national team was doing pants at the time, I know as I was a schoolboy going to the game and never saw them win a 5 Nations game!

When Brian Ashton was in charge of Ireland there was talk of having Ireland training sessions/meet ups in England as that's where the most of our players where at the time.

Over time the IRFU started to bring back players to Ireland and the provinces got stronger with Ulster winning the Heineken Cup in 98 or 99, though I'm not sure they benefitted hugely bar David Humprheys being brought home, and with Munster from then on for a few years. It's mad now to think that Harlequins gave Keith Wood a sabbatical to play for Munster in 99/00.

As far as I know there was no govt backing but the pay wasn't really that great.

There was a great documentary called Stealing rugby : the secret battle between media empires for control of Ruby Union which focused on the big Tri Nations teams and the situation/happenings as they turned pro but I don't know of anywhere that it's available any more online.

Anthony Foley's biography is interesting as he went through this phase as a player.

jm08

An obituary for Vernon Pugh, who was IRB Chairman at the time will give you some insight.

---

Vernon Pugh dragged rugby union kicking, if not screaming, from the age of the amateur to full-blooded professionalism in what amounted to a revolution in France in August 1995. The fallout is still being felt.

For more than 150 years the game had recoiled from paying players, but at a meeting in Paris, Pugh blew the amateur principles asunder and declared rugby an "open" sport. It was not what the diehards expected.

As the first elected chairman of the International Board, Pugh, a QC, persuaded the delegates that they had no choice but to vote for radical change. "If we had not taken that decision then, I have no doubt the game would have disintegrated," he said later.

"It seemed to me that the special ethos of rugby was not irrefutably linked to the non-payment of players. It just could not be proven.

"We had to acknowledge the changes which had taken place. The Southern Hemisphere had put building blocks in place for professionalism. There was no point in fiddling about. It was too late for evolution."

Pugh, who died after a battle with cancer, was brought up in the Amman Valley in Wales, the son of a miner. He went to Aberystwyth University and on to Cambridge, where he played rugby but failed to win a Blue. He was called to the Bar in 1969.

As a barrister he specialised in common law; as a rugby administrator he specialised in tackling shamateurism.

The game had become big business, but the laws stipulated that players could not be paid. Pugh knew the law was an ass because people were being paid unofficially.

Pugh had not sat on a committee until a friend talked him into standing for the Welsh Rugby Union, and his application was lodged only 10 minutes before the deadline. In 1993 he became the first chairman of the WRU general committee, and chairman of the IRB a year later.

The first World Cup was launched in 1987, the year after the New Zealand Cavaliers toured South Africa, where they were paid, although not openly, to play.

In 1994, again preceding the threat of a televised professional circus in the Southern Hemisphere involving Louis Luyt, the head of South African rugby, and Rupert Murdoch, Pugh chaired a working party on amateurism.

Seventeen months later, Pugh ended the hypocrisy. He was at the forefront of deals with television and sponsors, set about expanding the World Cup, helped Italy to turn the Five Nations into Six, and developed the Heineken Cup.

"Professionalism brings problems," Pugh admitted. "There is a danger of the ethos being polluted, and that is why we must have strong managers. We have to stand up to aggressive commercial concerns who want to put money solely in the pockets of the few."

During his term as IRB chairman, he found the lack of authority of the board distressing.

At times he was guilty of corralling too much power and he made enemies.

There was an acrimonious falling-out with the New Zealand Rugby Union last year when Pugh stripped them of their co-host status, alongside Australia, for this year's World Cup after they failed to comply with certain commercial strictures.

Rugby has changed, but as it has grown, so has the gap between the haves and have-nots, and Pugh's vision of a world in union remains a dream.

Vernon Pugh dragged rugby union kicking, if not screaming, from the age of the amateur to full-blooded professionalism in what amounted to a revolution in France in August 1995. The fallout is still being felt.

For more than 150 years the game had recoiled from paying players, but at a meeting in Paris, Pugh blew the amateur principles asunder and declared rugby an "open" sport. It was not what the diehards expected.

As the first elected chairman of the International Board, Pugh, a QC, persuaded the delegates that they had no choice but to vote for radical change. "If we had not taken that decision then, I have no doubt the game would have disintegrated," he said later.

"It seemed to me that the special ethos of rugby was not irrefutably linked to the non-payment of players. It just could not be proven.

"We had to acknowledge the changes which had taken place. The Southern Hemisphere had put building blocks in place for professionalism. There was no point in fiddling about. It was too late for evolution."

Pugh, who died after a battle with cancer, was brought up in the Amman Valley in Wales, the son of a miner. He went to Aberystwyth University and on to Cambridge, where he played rugby but failed to win a Blue. He was called to the Bar in 1969.

As a barrister he specialised in common law; as a rugby administrator he specialised in tackling shamateurism.

The game had become big business, but the laws stipulated that players could not be paid. Pugh knew the law was an ass because people were being paid unofficially.

Pugh had not sat on a committee until a friend talked him into standing for the Welsh Rugby Union, and his application was lodged only 10 minutes before the deadline. In 1993 he became the first chairman of the WRU general committee, and chairman of the IRB a year later.

The first World Cup was launched in 1987, the year after the New Zealand Cavaliers toured South Africa, where they were paid, although not openly, to play.

In 1994, again preceding the threat of a televised professional circus in the Southern Hemisphere involving Louis Luyt, the head of South African rugby, and Rupert Murdoch, Pugh chaired a working party on amateurism.

Seventeen months later, Pugh ended the hypocrisy. He was at the forefront of deals with television and sponsors, set about expanding the World Cup, helped Italy to turn the Five Nations into Six, and developed the Heineken Cup.

"Professionalism brings problems," Pugh admitted. "There is a danger of the ethos being polluted, and that is why we must have strong managers. We have to stand up to aggressive commercial concerns who want to put money solely in the pockets of the few."

During his term as IRB chairman, he found the lack of authority of the board distressing.

At times he was guilty of corralling too much power and he made enemies.

There was an acrimonious falling-out with the New Zealand Rugby Union last year when Pugh stripped them of their co-host status, alongside Australia, for this year's World Cup after they failed to comply with certain commercial strictures.

Rugby has changed, but as it has grown, so has the gap between the haves and have-nots, and Pugh's vision of a world in union remains a dream.

International rugby administrator. Died aged 57.

Vernon Pugh dragged rugby union kicking, if not screaming, from the age of the amateur to full-blooded professionalism in what amounted to a revolution in France in August 1995. The fallout is still being felt.

For more than 150 years the game had recoiled from paying players, but at a meeting in Paris, Pugh blew the amateur principles asunder and declared rugby an "open" sport. It was not what the diehards expected.

As the first elected chairman of the International Board, Pugh, a QC, persuaded the delegates that they had no choice but to vote for radical change. "If we had not taken that decision then, I have no doubt the game would have disintegrated," he said later.

"It seemed to me that the special ethos of rugby was not irrefutably linked to the non-payment of players. It just could not be proven.

"We had to acknowledge the changes which had taken place. The Southern Hemisphere had put building blocks in place for professionalism. There was no point in fiddling about. It was too late for evolution."

Pugh, who died after a battle with cancer, was brought up in the Amman Valley in Wales, the son of a miner. He went to Aberystwyth University and on to Cambridge, where he played rugby but failed to win a Blue. He was called to the Bar in 1969.

As a barrister he specialised in common law; as a rugby administrator he specialised in tackling shamateurism.

The game had become big business, but the laws stipulated that players could not be paid. Pugh knew the law was an ass because people were being paid unofficially.

Pugh had not sat on a committee until a friend talked him into standing for the Welsh Rugby Union, and his application was lodged only 10 minutes before the deadline. In 1993 he became the first chairman of the WRU general committee, and chairman of the IRB a year later.

The first World Cup was launched in 1987, the year after the New Zealand Cavaliers toured South Africa, where they were paid, although not openly, to play.

In 1994, again preceding the threat of a televised professional circus in the Southern Hemisphere involving Louis Luyt, the head of South African rugby, and Rupert Murdoch, Pugh chaired a working party on amateurism.

Seventeen months later, Pugh ended the hypocrisy. He was at the forefront of deals with television and sponsors, set about expanding the World Cup, helped Italy to turn the Five Nations into Six, and developed the Heineken Cup.

"Professionalism brings problems," Pugh admitted. "There is a danger of the ethos being polluted, and that is why we must have strong managers. We have to stand up to aggressive commercial concerns who want to put money solely in the pockets of the few."

During his term as IRB chairman, he found the lack of authority of the board distressing.

At times he was guilty of corralling too much power and he made enemies.

There was an acrimonious falling-out with the New Zealand Rugby Union last year when Pugh stripped them of their co-host status, alongside Australia, for this year's World Cup after they failed to comply with certain commercial strictures.

Rugby has changed, but as it has grown, so has the gap between the haves and have-nots, and Pugh's vision of a world in union remains a dream.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=3452451

A fairly decent quick summary here from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union#Professionalism

Professionalism[edit]
On 26 August 1995 the International Rugby Board declared rugby union an "open" game and thus removed all restrictions on payments or benefits to those connected with the game. It did this because of a committee conclusion that to do so was the only way to end the hypocrisy of shamateurism and to keep control of rugby union.

The threat to amateur rugby union was especially large in Australia where Super League was threatening to entice players to rugby league with large salaries.[59] SANZAR was formed in 1995 by the New Zealand, Australian and South African Rugby Unions to try to counter the Super League threat.[60] SANZAR proposed a provincial competition with teams from all three countries. This competition became the Super 12 and later the Super 14 before adopting its current identity as Super Rugby. The SANZAR proposals also included an annual competition between each country's Test teams, the Tri Nations Series. They were eventually able to get backing for the competition from Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation, with a contract totalling $US 550 million for ten years of exclusive TV and radio broadcasting rights. The deal was signed during the 1995 Rugby World Cup and revealed at a press conference on the eve of World Cup final.[61]

SANZAR's proposals were under serious threat from a Sydney-based group called the World Rugby Corporation (WRC). WRC was formed by lawyer Geoff Levy and former Wallaby Ross Turnbull. Both wanted a professional worldwide rugby competition funded by Kerry Packer.[62] At one point the WRC had a majority of the All Blacks and Wallaby teams signed up to their competition. In addition to this the Springboks had also signed the WRC contracts but had decided not to hand them over and instead signed up with the South African Rugby Union.[63] The players had been told they would never play for their country again if they committed to the WRC.[64] Most of the All Blacks then followed their Springbok counterparts by signing with their Union. The Australians, realising that without the New Zealanders and South Africans WRC's proposal could not succeed, relented and signed for the Australian Rugby Union.[65]

The Heineken Cup was formed in 1995 as a competition for 12 European clubs. Today the competition includes teams from England, France, Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

Professionalism opened the door for the emergence of a new rugby generation in Italy. The Italian domestic leagues had attracted a degree of tax relief in the 1990s, and were able to attract both strong corporate sponsorship and also high quality coaches and players with recent Italian heritage from Australia and Argentina. These improvements led to a national team capable of competing with the national teams of the British Isles, proven by a famous victory against Ireland in 1995. Lobbying was successful to have Italy included in the century-old tournament for the top European rugby nations which became the Six Nations championship in 2000.

A key benefit that professionalism brought to rugby union as a whole was the elimination of the constant defection of union players who were attracted to the money of rugby league. The rugby union authorities of the time also hoped that as players could now play in either code, in the long term most of the sponsorship and interest would gravitate away from league to the more international game of union. However, rugby union has not managed to lure away more than a handful of elite players from rugby league, as the two codes have become quite different over the decades of separation in both culture and in aspects of play. The preferred body type and skill sets of players differ, especially in the play of the forwards. With access to players of different types, some more suited to one code and some to the other, some English rugby union clubs have even formed partnerships with a rugby league club which plays in the premier rugby league competitions – the most notable example being Harlequins with London Broncos (formerly Harlequins Rugby League), and between Wigan Warriors and Saracens.

In some countries rugby union's administration and structure have not developed along with its professionalism. In Australia the constant flow of rugby union juniors to rugby league clubs has slowed, but Australian rugby union has failed to successfully promote a club or franchise league below the elite level. With professional club games every weekend, Australian rugby league has maintained its dominance over union, especially in its traditional heartlands of New South Wales and Queensland.

The many smaller unions across the globe have struggled both financially and in playing terms to compete with the major nations since the start of the open era. In England whilst some teams flourished in the professional era others such as Richmond, Wakefield, Orrell, Waterloo and London Scottish found the going much harder and have either folded or dropped down to minor leagues. In the other Home Nations, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the professional era had a traumatic effect on the traditional structure of the sport, which had been based around local clubs. Professional rugby in these three countries is now regionally based. In Ireland, each of the four traditional provinces supports one professional team. Scotland currently has two regional teams, each based in one of the country's two largest cities. Wales adopted a regional franchise model, originally with five teams but now with four. These three countries have a joint professional competition, known as the Celtic League or its current sponsored name of RaboDirect Pro12. In 2010, two Italian super-regional teams joined that league.

awec

It would be good if anyone had any links or whatever on this from an Irish POV specifically. At what point was it decided to use the provinces as pro sides instead of clubs?

CatFromHue

Unfortunately the game went open in 95 which is when the internet was in its' infancy.

There is a documentary made by the IRFU in the late 90's on the history of The Evolution of Irish Rugby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoE6BlQZBk

Part 4 begins about 1.14.00

It's good to watch to see a very boyish BOD, ROG, Shaggy, Stringer, and Bob Casey!

It is very Union biased though!

Steve Perchance

I'd recommend 'A game for hooligans' - http://www.amazon.com/Game-Hooligans-History-Rugby-Union/dp/1845962559

Gives a history of rugby from its separation from soccer, then league, then the growth of professionalism. It's a decent read if you're interested in the history of the game. Even has some decent stuff on the issues caused in Ireland by the GAA's 'foreign games' ban.

Essentially rugby had already become semi-professional by the early 90's, with players being given 'jobs' by club supporters that they didn't have to show up for, or free accommodation and generous 'expenses'. The decision to go professional was to bring that all out in the open, and it finally happened 100 years after rugby league had split and done the same thing in 1995.

phog

awec wrote: »

It would be good if anyone had any links or whatever on this from an Irish POV specifically. At what point was it decided to use the provinces as pro sides instead of clubs?

I think Ireland went pro with a panel of players and the clubs were left to their own devices then the European Cup was set up ( a brainchild of the IRFU) and it was agreed that the provinces would be our clubs in the competition. I suppose this then necessitated the provinces going pro.

The Celtic League took a few more years to get off the ground.

The provinces only played a few Cup games each year and also a round of InterPros but players stayed/played with their clubs far more often than nowadays.

sydthebeat

I remember watching a late late show type debate about whether or not Irish rugby should go professional. That Irish Times journalist with the Dutch name was vehemently against it. Can't recall his exact n name now but I'll have a look later to see if there's a link anywhere.

phog

sydthebeat wrote: »

I remember watching a late late show type debate about whether or not Irish rugby should go professional. That Irish Times journalist with the Dutch name was vehemently against it. Can't recall his exact n name now but I'll have a look later to see if there's a link anywhere.

Ned van Esbeck

former legend

sydthebeat wrote: »

I remember watching a late late show type debate about whether or not Irish rugby should go professional. That Irish Times journalist with the Dutch name was vehemently against it. Can't recall his exact n name now but I'll have a look later to see if there's a link anywhere.

Edmund van Esbeck, very old school.

former legend

S12b wrote: »

Hi all,

As a younger poster, I'm looking to learn a bit about how the game went professional. Could anybody direct me to some sites/articles/sources discussing it

* did certain countries lead the way or was it a coordinated move
* what was the perception in Ireland at the time
* was it an instant success or were there big issues in the early days
* how did it work financially.....government backing or how did they make things balance?

Thanks

If you're really interested, there is an excellent book called "Winter Colours" by Donald McRae which is basically a memoir of his life as a rugby journalist, but it focuses a lot on the transition from amateur to pro. I'd really recommend it.

I was actually thinking about this the other day when Richie McCaw overtook Colin Meads as the most capped NZer; for Meads to play 133 times for his country (not all test matches) must have been such an enormous sacrifice in terms of time away from home.
Turning pro was the only option for the game in an era when gentlemen players could no longer sustain this sort of commitment on the grace of personal wealth or very indulging employers. In fact, Ireland match programmes used to list the club each player played for but also his employer, to acknowledge their contribution.

jacothelad

S12b wrote: »

Hi all,

As a younger poster, I'm looking to learn a bit about how the game went professional. Could anybody direct me to some sites/articles/sources discussing it

* did certain countries lead the way or was it a coordinated move
* what was the perception in Ireland at the time
* was it an instant success or were there big issues in the early days
* how did it work financially.....government backing or how did they make things balance?

Thanks

There were always countries that remunerated players in various ways before professionalism,. France was actually removed from the 5 nations at one time on this very issue. I was fortunate enough to play in Wales for two years in the early 1970s. I can tell you from my own experience that the stories of 'boot money' were true. Good players for example were often 'given' free stuff by local shop keepers who supported the team. Often, not paying for things was in place of actually being paid but there was cash in reasonable amounts. A top local player might / would 'find' £10.00 or £20.00 in his pocket after a game - this when the take home pay of a blue collar worker would have been about that amount.

There is also little doubt that in the S.H., players had arrangements in place to allow them to train as full time players. Contrast that to our own contemporaries at that time. Teachers, lawyers etc had every little expense scrutinised and clawed back by the IRFU. Players going on the Lions were not paid by their employers - instead they got a laughable allowance of a few pence per day. The blazers travelled first class while the players didn't.

Tony Ward was once asked to pay back his bus fare to Lansdowne road by the IRFU. Hence, we still have the IRFU controlled by bankers and bean counters to a large extent. Remember also that a player who became a professional in R.L. - such as the great Ken Goodall - were not only banned from the Union game but actually banned from any Union clubhouse and ground. Ken's pro career was very short as he got badly injured. When he came home, he wasn't even allowed to go and watch City of Derry, his local team.

Teferi

sydthebeat wrote: »

I remember watching a late late show type debate about whether or not Irish rugby should go professional. That Irish Times journalist with the Dutch name was vehemently against it. Can't recall his exact n name now but I'll have a look later to see if there's a link anywhere.

They role that footage out again every now and again for stuff like Reeling Back the Years etc. It shouldn't be too hard to find if someone wants to see it, it might even be on RTE Player somewhere.

Yeah_Right

I remember when it was all going on. The panic in NZ as rumours swirled about all the All Blacks going to Packer's WRC. There was a massive battle going on between Murdoch and Packer for the TV rights to rugby and rugby league at the time. It split league into 2 separate bodies for a few years and I think set the game back after it had been making great progress in expanding into areas where it wasn't traditionally strong.

Jock Hobbs (former All Black and at the time a lawyer for the NZRFU) is widely creditted with saving the All Blacks. He spent weeks flying all over the country, working 24/7 to get the players to sign. If I remember correctly it was Kronfeld, Wilson and Lomu that were the first to sign with the NZRFU They were all new stars on the rise and I think that helped break the will of the WRC. After them more and more All Blacks came back.

Read Sean Fitzpatrick's book and his take on it was very interesting. Secret meetings, promises etc. Can't remember it all now but at the time of reading I was "wow!! Holy sh!t!!"

irishbucsfan

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82821850&postcount=1

This was the thread with the debate. Interesting to watch.

sydthebeat

Teferi wrote: »

They role that footage out again every now and again for stuff like Reeling Back the Years etc. It shouldn't be too hard to find if someone wants to see it, it might even be on RTE Player somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ORmKIpcyw

heres part 1 of that debate.. theres another 3 parts following.

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

There is also little doubt that in the S.H., players had arrangements in place to allow them to train as full time players. Contrast that to our own contemporaries at that time. Teachers, lawyers etc had every little expense scrutinised and clawed back by the IRFU.

My Dad always tell a story of being roped into lining out for a 7s competition that was supposed to be a social event and a bit of fun up in Belfast (I think it was actually specifically for banks/financial institutions). They didn't really train or do any preparation and were all part timers. They got to the first game and saw Willie John warming up on the other side of the pitch...

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

My Dad always tell a story of being roped into lining out for a 7s competition that was supposed to be a social event and a bit of fun up in Belfast (I think it was actually specifically for banks/financial institutions). They didn't really train or do any preparation and were all part timers. They got to the first game and saw Willie John warming up on the other side of the pitch...

Yes, he was a bank official with the B of I in Ballymena. It was pretty much the same for a lot of guys at weekends. Turn up to play and if you were very unlucky, there was a Gibson, or a Syd Millar or a Ken Kennedy or even worse, guys like Ian McIlwrath, Stuart McKinney, Ronnie Hakin, Jim Neilly, JAG Whitten (dad of Ian) Willie Anderson or Roger Clegg. Guys you knew personally who took great delight in mullering the bejasus out of you and then taking the piss in the bar. McKinney was the scariest player in Ireland. Feral and ferocious on and off the pitch but good company too. The guys who make it to the top end of rugby have a thing in common that escapes us lesser mortals. They appear to be made of a skeleton of steel and with the rest of the body made of unobtanium. When you tackle them they hurt you. When they tackle you they hurt you. I don't think you can be a pro and not have that tinge of brutality.

awec

phog wrote: »

I think Ireland went pro with a panel of players and the clubs were left to their own devices then the European Cup was set up ( a brainchild of the IRFU) and it was agreed that the provinces would be our clubs in the competition. I suppose this then necessitated the provinces going pro.

The Celtic League took a few more years to get off the ground.

The provinces only played a few Cup games each year and also a round of InterPros but players stayed/played with their clubs far more often than nowadays.

Was there animosity between clubs and the IRFU when this began to happen (players being taken for more and more provincial games) ?

I mean were the clubs happy to see the provinces become the pro sides?

phog

awec wrote: »

Was there animosity between clubs and the IRFU when this began to happen (players being taken for more and more provincial games) ?

I mean were the clubs happy to see the provinces become the pro sides?

I doubt the Munster clubs were too happy to see their players being contracted to the provinces and not being available to them as regular as they once were. The clubs also lost a huge amount of supporters too, some of this was probably self inflicted in that they started to use their allottement of Munster tickets for corporate packages but also the standard of club rugby dropped with the loss of the better players to provinces and some heading across the water.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

Was there animosity between clubs and the IRFU when this began to happen (players being taken for more and more provincial games) ?

I mean were the clubs happy to see the provinces become the pro sides?

No there wasn't animosity IMO. When first contracts were signed there was little for the provinces to play and players who were on contracts were primarily playing AIL and it just evolved from there. It was only when celtic league started that the clubs really went behind the provinces as until then the provinces played 12 or so games a year and after the 99 world cup disaster that IRFU saw that the provinces needed to be used more and having players primarily playing club rugby wasn't going to be good enough

phog wrote: »

I doubt the Munster clubs were too happy to see their players being contracted to the provinces and not being available to them as regular as they once were. The clubs also lost a huge amount of supporters too, some of this was probably self inflicted in that they started to use their allottement of Munster tickets for corporate packages but also the standard of club rugby dropped with the loss of the better players to provinces and some heading across the water.

That's unfair on a lot of clubs phog. Only a small enough number of clubs used tickets in a big way for corporate packages etc and most didn't. The clubs lost their way for many other reasons than just tickets.

Losty Dublin

One thing I remember her at the time was how little the IRFU did in 1995 and 1996. Back then, England and Wales went gung ho into the pro game with many clubs copying the soccer model of Sugar Daddy or small time PLC listing for ready cash only to find that it quickly ran out. Players quickly made their way to the UK and stopgap pay structures came in that actually managed to attract a few players home as well as tying up some of our better players to the national team and club teams.

As it happens, the lack of a knee-jerk action of the IRFU actually stood to it as they were able to learn from the mistakes of the other rugby playing nations assess and construct a more realistic structure for the game here based largely on the model that the game was built on here. More modest monies were spent by Branch and Clubs alike from early on, mainly at the schools level, with the resultant being that the game here grew more from the bottom up than had been the case elsewhere.

Young players then arrived into Ireland from the SH and were slotting into part time coaching and playing gigs in clubs all over the country; it also helped that Ireland was doing well economically and was more than happy to take in qualified professionals for their 9 to 5 jobs. It was a running joke at the time that all you needed to go to get a paid coaching gig was to recite the Haka or speak in an Aussie accent

By the turn of the millennium, the fledgling European Cup and Celtic Leagues were formed into a more structured competitions. The game was growing and new players were bursting onto the expanded scene, all with places to play for and with game time to impress. The 4 provinces were by now the keystone of the game here and became clubs in their own right but at a price; it came at the expense of once famous club names such as Shannon, Dungannon, St. Mary's College, Galweigans and more who became second and third fiddles in the games structure as academy and squad panels took precedence. Indeed, several junior clubs have folded or merged with rivals across the country in an attempt to stay afloat.

OldRio

I played in England in the late 70's. Very very low level I may add. The better players in the senior team, like Jaco said. often 'found' a £5 in their shoes at full time. I once found a sixpence, just enough for a one way bus journey home.:D

awec

Losty Dublin wrote: »

One thing I remember her at the time was how little the IRFU did in 1995 and 1996. Back then, England and Wales went gung ho into the pro game with many clubs copying the soccer model of Sugar Daddy or small time PLC listing for ready cash only to find that it quickly ran out. Players quickly made their way to the UK and stopgap pay structures came in that actually managed to attract a few players home as well as tying up some of our better players to the national team and club teams.

As it happens, the lack of a knee-jerk action of the IRFU actually stood to it as they were able to learn from the mistakes of the other rugby playing nations assess and construct a more realistic structure for the game here based largely on the model that the game was built on here. More modest monies were spent by Branch and Clubs alike from early on, mainly at the schools level, with the resultant being that the game here grew more from the bottom up than had been the case elsewhere.

Young players then arrived into Ireland from the SH and were slotting into part time coaching and playing gigs in clubs all over the country; it also helped that Ireland was doing well economically and was more than happy to take in qualified professionals for their 9 to 5 jobs. It was a running joke at the time that all you needed to go to get a paid coaching gig was to recite the Haka or speak in an Aussie accent

By the turn of the millennium, the fledgling European Cup and Celtic Leagues were formed into a more structured competitions. The game was growing and new players were bursting onto the expanded scene, all with places to play for and with game time to impress. The 4 provinces were by now the keystone of the game here and became clubs in their own right but at a price; it came at the expense of once famous club names such as Shannon, Dungannon, St. Mary's College, Galweigans and more who became second and third fiddles in the games structure as academy and squad panels took precedence. Indeed, several junior clubs have folded or merged with rivals across the country in an attempt to stay afloat.

Ireland was fortunate to have provincial teams that people could easily identify with, and that people had already a sense of belonging to.

You can see the mess in Wales with their makey uppy regional teams and their struggle to attract supporters.

phog

awec wrote: »

Ireland was fortunate to have provincial teams that people could easily identify with, and that people had already a sense of belonging to.

You can see the mess in Wales with their makey uppy regional teams and their struggle to attract supporters.

While the Provincial teams were in existence the games only attracted a few supporters.

It's not that long ago Donnybrook and Musgrave Park hosted league games between Munster & Leinster.

Winning in Europe helped the provinces no end.

Losty Dublin

awec wrote: »

Ireland was fortunate to have provincial teams that people could easily identify with, and that people had already a sense of belonging to.

You can see the mess in Wales with their makey uppy regional teams and their struggle to attract supporters.

Indeed so. The 4 provinces had a lot to get through initially but there was at least a path and a belonging for fans to buy into The WRU didn't control their teams from the start and they let their Premier Division being too powerful, at one stage even allowing Edinburgh and Glasgow to join them. By this stage, the rot had set in and the 3 home unions formed what is now the Pro 12.

Even then, the Welsh insisted on entering 9 clubs who quickly became overstretched as they still played a domestic league with the Scottish clubs.
Within 2 years, their clubs were fiscally crippled and forced to merge into 5 units, which quickly became 4 as Pontypridd and Bridgend pulled out their Celtic Warriors franchise.

The Lost Sheep

Losty Dublin wrote: »

One thing I remember her at the time was how little the IRFU did in 1995 and 1996. Back then, England and Wales went gung ho into the pro game with many clubs copying the soccer model of Sugar Daddy or small time PLC listing for ready cash only to find that it quickly ran out. Players quickly made their way to the UK and stopgap pay structures came in that actually managed to attract a few players home as well as tying up some of our better players to the national team and club teams.

As it happens, the lack of a knee-jerk action of the IRFU actually stood to it as they were able to learn from the mistakes of the other rugby playing nations assess and construct a more realistic structure for the game here based largely on the model that the game was built on here. More modest monies were spent by Branch and Clubs alike from early on, mainly at the schools level, with the resultant being that the game here grew more from the bottom up than had been the case elsewhere.

Young players then arrived into Ireland from the SH and were slotting into part time coaching and playing gigs in clubs all over the country; it also helped that Ireland was doing well economically and was more than happy to take in qualified professionals for their 9 to 5 jobs. It was a running joke at the time that all you needed to go to get a paid coaching gig was to recite the Haka or speak in an Aussie accent

By the turn of the millennium, the fledgling European Cup and Celtic Leagues were formed into a more structured competitions. The game was growing and new players were bursting onto the expanded scene, all with places to play for and with game time to impress. The 4 provinces were by now the keystone of the game here and became clubs in their own right but at a price; it came at the expense of once famous club names such as Shannon, Dungannon, St. Mary's College, Galweigans and more who became second and third fiddles in the games structure as academy and squad panels took precedence. Indeed, several junior clubs have folded or merged with rivals across the country in an attempt to stay afloat.

IRFU did little as they didn't think they would need to do much. They were happy to see players go abroad. Yes plenty of money was spent in development in clubs and schools and especially in non traditional rugby playing areas which has proved fruitful. The clubs have only really fallen down the ranks in terms of structure with the advent of provincial A teams and while they did with the introduction of celtic league lose out they were still used quite a bit by squad pro players then

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Indeed so. The 4 provinces had a lot to get through initially but there was at least a path and a belonging for fans to buy into The WRU didn't control their teams from the start and they let their Premier Division being too powerful, at one stage even allowing Edinburgh and Glasgow to join them. By this stage, the rot had set in and the 3 home unions formed what is now the Pro 12.

Even then, the Welsh insisted on entering 9 clubs who quickly became overstretched as they still played a domestic league with the Scottish clubs.
Within 2 years, their clubs were fiscally crippled and forced to merge into 5 units, which quickly became 4 as Pontypridd and Bridgend pulled out their Celtic Warriors franchise.

Welsh were not helped with their not exactly being 4 regions for fans, players etc to but into.

OldRio

It wasn't just the Welsh teams that struggled with professionalism.

West Hartlepool were a successful team in England in the 80's and early 90's. Team was made up of local players. Unfortunately when they tried to compete with the money boys it ended badly. Relegated with Aussies, Kiwis French and Italian players. Huge debts ensued. Ended up losing their ground and falling like a brick through the divisions.

Sad story and a lovely club.

thomond2006

Wasn't there a £1 million transfer fee paid for a player in England in the late 90s? Mad amount of money when you account for inflation. No player would get that amount today and the same amount is worth a lot less.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Wasn't there a £1 million transfer fee paid for a player in England in the late 90s? Mad amount of money when you account for inflation. No player would get that amount today and the same amount is worth a lot less.

Yes, it was Richmond. They were being funded by a questionable sort of fellow.

They eventually folded for fairly obvious reasons, and were disposed of in a couple of ways (the amateur club is still kicking around and the professional side of things were acquired by London Irish, hence the Madejski move for them).

EDIT: As an aside, a few of the Irish girls are Richmond players, Lynne Cantwell was, and Jenny Murphy broke through there. Probably a couple more.

2nd EDIT: Turns out the player was Ben Clarke. Not really a superstar...

LeinsterDub

irishbucsfan wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82821850&postcount=1

This was the thread with the debate. Interesting to watch.

Great video to look back at with hindsight . 19 years on and we are still talking about structuring the season


p.s is this Ned ?
http://media.irishcentral.com/images/082713_father_ted.jpg