First Ultra recommendation

dekbhoy

Hi guys
Going to do dublin marathon this month. This will be my 4th marathon assuming no last minute hiccups. After that i have my heart set on completing and divulging myself in ultra marathon scene. What would people recommend for their first taste of an ultra. i assume for your first you do the basic of ultras as in a 50km.

sideswipe

I did Donadea 50k as my first and would recommend it. The 10x5k loops on forest fire roads had me a little apprehensive but it works very well, you can leave a drop bag at the finish area and pay it a visit every lap.

DogSlySmile

The Wicklow Way Ultra (50k) was my first ultra and I loved every minute of it. Its early in the year (March) so it will keep you honest over the winter.

Like you I went straight from running DCM into Ultra training. I just followed a P&D plan but substituted the speed sessions for hill sessions.

Check out the IMRA Powerscourt Ridge race in Nov to give you an idea of the climbs involved.

opus

Another vote for the Donadea 50k, great event! Think you'd need to be entering around now mind you.

TFBubendorfer

A 50k is more a mis-measured marathon.

Despite the risk of begin banned by Anto, I'd recommend Connemara as your first ultra.

Enduro

All good suggestions so far.

dekbhoy, do you know at this stage whether you'd be more interested in trail ultras or flat ultras? If you have a definite bias its easier to pick a good target.

My answer would be to pick the race that most interests you. You don't have to work your way up through distances.

Oisin11178

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

A 50k is more a mis-measured marathon.

Despite the risk of begin banned by Anto, I'd recommend Connemara as your first ultra.

I liked the conn ultra but i think Donadea 50km is far more suitable for a first time ultra runner. First of all the ~5 miles longer than marathon which is a managle step for the majority of runners as opposed to the 13.1 mile jump to conn. Also the forest is a great barrier againest the weather with excellent shelter againest the elements. Not to mention with it being laps the novice can have their own supplies every 5km. National 50km championship. Also i like the way the field is intertwined with the fast guys. Seeing the winner going by last year and running a 2.59 50km was a sight to behold.
Im not saying conn isnt a decent race but hands down id recommend donadea 50km as a first ultra

TFBubendorfer

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Not to mention with it being laps the novice can have their own supplies every 5km.

All true and all valid, but passing the start/finish every 5k also means a chance of dropping out every 5k.

I'm absolutely sure there are some runners every year that would have been perfectly able to finish but pull out unnecessarily just by being tempted once too often.

b.harte

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

All true and all valid, but passing the start/finish every 5k also means a chance of dropping out every 5k.

I'm absolutely sure there are some runners every year that would have been perfectly able to finish but pull out unnecessarily just by being tempted once too often.

Not sure what to make of that...by that logic you would have been tempted to pull out many, many times in your 400mtr laps in Belfast...but you didn't so is it down to your personal drive / ambition or the fact that you cut your teeth somewhere else? Genuine question BTW.

Does it not follow then, that some novices ultra runners (of which everyone was once) might possess the strengths to continue for another 5km lap (instead of another 400mtr lap).

I suppose it's a glass half full / half empty sort of set-up.
I personally like the 5km laps of both Donadea & Portumna - I think they lend themselves to a nice sense of community. They are far & away the most welcoming events I have been involved with (outside of trail ultras). Seeing so many people of so many different levels is a great learning experience.

The fact that it is early in the year - as someone else said - is a big plus for Donadea, keeps focus during the winter and a great opener for other longer events in the calendar.

From talking to friends who have done it WW is a cracker - has it all even snow!

Donadea as an opener - lovely surface and a great friendly race.
Portumna a close second - Timing of Donadea suit my year better.

One last thing.

A 50km is an Ultra....never mind this mis-measured marathon rubbish, there's enough of them already.

dekbhoy

Thank you guys for replies I will have a genuine look at all the above mentioned regarding work commitments etc. Donadea looks very appealing. As a city slicker my only experience of running through forests was doing wicklow adventure races and I really enjoyed that. Enduro I think trail would be more favourable but I'm open to trying both

TFBubendorfer

b.harte wrote: »

Not sure what to make of that...by that logic you would have been tempted to pull out many, many times in your 400mtr laps in Belfast...but you didn't so is it down to your personal drive / ambition or the fact that you cut your teeth somewhere else? Genuine question BTW.

I wasn't tempted because I had my mind firmly set on running for 24 hours non-stop and that's what I did. Different runners are different, though. If you read enough race reports from various 24 hour races anywhere you'll see plenty of reports how the chair became too tempting.

b.harte wrote:

Does it not follow then, that some novices ultra runners (of which everyone was once) might possess the strengths to continue for another 5km lap (instead of another 400mtr lap).

Absolutely! And not just novices, it's the same for everyone. But if someone is suffering badly and they just happen to pass a chair, there is always the chance that they give in. If there were no chair, they'd have no option but to carry on.

b.harte wrote:

A 50km is an Ultra....never mind this mis-measured marathon rubbish, there's enough of them already.

What I mean by that is that you can run a 50k off marathon fitness and there won't be much of a difference. As long as you start a few seconds per mile slower than you would a marathon you'll do perfectly fine.

The longer the distance goes, the more ultra-specific it becomes.

Enduro

dekbhoy wrote: »

Enduro I think trail would be more favourable but I'm open to trying both

Then definitely try both! Donadea is kinda in the middle. It's as close to flat as makes no difference (from an ultra trail runner's POV), but it is on forest trails (fire roads).

The best starter race for trail runners in Ireland is probably the Wicklow Way Ultra (the 50km one that's usually on in early April). No reason you couldn't give both Donadea and this a go as long as you don't go too hard in Donadea.

pointer28

How about this?

www.stonemadultra.com

I only did the HM on both days but very friendly atmosphere and lovely routes.

Day 1 Ultra is 62 km flat as a pancake, Day 2 Ultra is 55km to the top of Mount Leinster and back again (not so flat). You can pick and choose what races you want to do on what days, you don't have to do the full 117 km.

911sc

I love StoneMad, beautifull trail along the river on Day1, back rooads and Mount Leinster on Day2.
Did 2*FM in 2013 and 2*UM in 2014. That was my first UM, so went for broke with a back-to back. If i can do it,sure you can, as i am an average runner.
Will defo try doing it again in 2015.

I have always been away the week-end of the Wicklow Way Ultra, but this race is high on my todo list.

inigo

So where do I sign up for the Wicklow Way Ultra?? I need to start focusing again...

DogSlySmile

inigo wrote: »

So where do I sign up for the Wicklow Way Ultra?? I need to start focusing again...

The IMRA AGM is on Nov 22nd. The race list for 2015 will be put together during this time but it takes a while to do as getting permits etc can be time consuming. They had online entry last year so I presume the same thing will happen in 2015. But I'd say the date for the race and entry details wont be released until January at the very earliest.

inigo

Thanks for that DSS, I guess I'll have to find another way to motivate myself in the chilly winter days... :rolleyes:

DogSlySmile

inigo wrote: »

Thanks for that DSS, I guess I'll have to find another way to motivate myself in the chilly winter days... :rolleyes:

Yep we are in the same boat there.. I'm keeping all my fingers and toes crossed that Art O'Neill will go ahead!

inigo

I have found this 50k training schedule "designed with the "newbie" in mind". I've just run my first ever marathon and am kinda recovering/easing back into running again. What do the experts here think of this plan?

ultraman1

inigo wrote: »

I have found this 50k training schedule "designed with the "newbie" in mind". I've just run my first ever marathon and am kinda recovering/easing back into running again. What do the experts here think of this plan?

Am no expert ,looks ok

inigo

ultraman1 wrote: »

Am no expert ,looks ok

Of course not................ :rolleyes:

Enduro

There are probably as many plans as there are ultra-runners. If you like the look of it go for it. Previous advice of picking a marathon plan and lenghtening the long runs is also good. What will work best is an individual thing.

Whatever plan you pick don't get too hung up on the numbers, and don't worry if you miss the odd day. This especially applies if your aim is simply to finish, as opposed to setting a major PB or be competitive.

inigo

Can I reopen this thread?

I'm seriously considering doing one of the Stonemad ultras in July. Which would you recommend for a first? 1st day is longer but flatter, 2nd day is shorter but hillier. Both have their pros and cons.

I have modified the original plan above to lengthen it in case I decide to do the 1st day's 62km.

While I've done most of my 2014 running at more or less the same comfortable pace, I'd like to start introducing harder or more intense runs and have thought of doing some of the IMRA races (Winter and Leinster Leagues). Is this a good idea??

I'm finding it difficult to include some of these in the plan (those falling on weekends; Wednesday races should be straight forward enough), as it would mess up the total mileage of those weeks. Any suggestions?

Also I'd really like to do the shorter Wicklow Way race in March but it falls in a H (hard) week. How would you work around it?

This is the modified plan. IMRA races are in yellow, ultras in blue. I'm in week 8 of the plan, which would give me 3 weeks to spare. Feel free to duplicate and edit the sheet.

inigo

inigo wrote: »

This is the modified plan. IMRA races are in yellow, ultras in blue. I'm in week 8 of the plan, which would give me 3 weeks to spare. Feel free to duplicate and edit the sheet.

Link above was view only. This one should have acess to edit the sheet.

DogSlySmile

Stone mad is a decent choice for your first ultra. I did both days last year and much preferred day 2. Day 1 is mostly flat and you run alongside a river for most of the day - sounds lovely but its quite boring! Day 2 has more variety and has a tough climb at around halfway so you have to pace yourself right.

Day2 was probably more similar to the training I was doing at the time so that may be why I preferred it. So if your training so far is long and flat, go for day 1. If you prefer hills go for day 2.

IMRAs are great training for longer races and the perfect way to get a bit of intensity into your week. Dont worry about messing up the mileage when you have an IMRA race that week. If you are new to ultras its very easy to become a slave to the plan and try to hit weekly mileage targets. But sticking in a few IMRAs here and there will do wonders for your strength and endurance and you may even end up doing less miles but this is ok!

ger664

I don't think you need to do close to the race distance twice in training in the lead up to this. I would max out at 26 miles with a hard hour the day after or maybe a back to back marathon or two.

TFBubendorfer

ger664 wrote: »

I don't think you need to do close to the race distance twice in training in the lead up to this. I would max out at 26 miles with a hard hour the day after or maybe a back to back marathon or two.

I agree with the most of that post but not the last bit.

You don't need to do back-to-back marathons. That's a workout I would reserve for experienced ultra runners only, anyone new to ultras will most likely set themselves back due to excessive need of recovery after such a training effort.

20/20 miles would be the most I would recommend for back-to-backs. Even a hard hour the day after along run could be too much (I do them the other way round; 10 reasonably hard miles on Saturday and a long run on Sunday).

Obviously, we're all different and what works for one runner won't necessarily work for anyone else.

DogSlySmile

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I agree with the most of that post but not the last bit.

You don't need to do back-to-back marathons. That's a workout I would reserve for experienced ultra runners only, anyone new to ultras will most likely set themselves back due to excessive need of recovery after such a training effort.

20/20 miles would be the most I would recommend for back-to-backs. Even a hard hour the day after along run could be too much (I do them the other way round; 10 reasonably hard miles on Saturday and a long run on Sunday).

Obviously, we're all different and what works for one runner won't necessarily work for anyone else.

Even for a 100 mile race? Or are you saying 20/20 is the furthest someone new to ultras should go? Thinking of doing my first 100 miler this year and its hard to gauge how far the long run should be (without it being too far).

What will your long runs look like for the 24hr?

TFBubendorfer

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Even for a 100 mile race? Or are you saying 20/20 is the furthest someone new to ultras should go? Thinking of doing my first 100 miler this year and its hard to gauge how far the long run should be (without it being too far).

What will your long runs look like for the 24hr?

No, that recommendation was geared towards one of the Stonemad ultras or similar races, e.g. Connemara (the 39 mile one, that is).

Training for a 100 miler or a 24 hrs race basically boils down to running as much as you can recover from. Where that point lies for you, or anyone else, I can't possibly say.

For the 24 hrs last July I ran as far as 100k in training (I did the Portumna 100k as a training run). I ran 100k, 50 miles, 45k and 2 marathons, all 2 weeks apart in an 8-week period. It's by far the hardest training I've ever done but it got the results. If I had tried that in previous years, however, I'm pretty sure I would have gotten injured rather than fit.

DogSlySmile

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

No, that recommendation was geared towards one of the Stonemad ultras or similar races, e.g. Connemara (the 39 mile one, that is).

Training for a 100 miler or a 24 hrs race basically boils down to running as much as you can recover from. Where that point lies for you, or anyone else, I can't possibly say.

For the 24 hrs last July I ran as far as 100k in training (I did the Portumna 100k as a training run). I ran 100k, 50 miles, 45k and 2 marathons, all 2 weeks apart in an 8-week period. It's by far the hardest training I've ever done but it got the results. If I had tried that in previous years, however, I'm pretty sure I would have gotten injured rather than fit.

Woah thats quite a taper you did for the 24hr! I know what you mean about the 100 mile training, only go as far as you can recover from. The thing is you only know if you can recover from a long run a few days after its over

Enduro

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Woah thats quite a taper you did for the 24hr! I know what you mean about the 100 mile training, only go as far as you can recover from. The thing is you only know if you can recover from a long run a few days after its over

Yeah, and of course the whole point of training is to cause an adaptation from putting your body under stress, so you should be pushing things out a little! Not an easy thing to judge. Personally I tend to err on the side of overdoing things and pay the occasional price for doing so.