Strange Law

learn

http://www.tipperarystar.ie/news/local-news/coroner-urges-sensors-on-large-vehicles-after-thurles-woman-died-in-accident-with-bus-eireann-bus-1-6331077


Even though the cyclist clearly indicated with a hand signal that she was not taking the first roundabout exit, the bus driver thought she did leave at that exit and being unaware that she was still there the accident occurred. Because no alcohol or speeding offence was involved the bus driver could not be cross examined.

Wishbone Ash

I'm open to correction but the purpose of an inquest is to establish what happened, not to apportion blame. The Gardai etc. may still bring charges if they deem it appropriate to do so.

UDP

Reading the report it sounds like she must have kept to the edge of the road but indicated clearly her intent via a hand signal (road position is not clear from the article though). Not sure how the bus was overtaking the cyclist when it should have been behind her through the junction. It's very important to own the road/lane entering and exiting roundabouts to avoid people trying to overtake you while using them. Very sad for all concerned. (edit: on reading again it looks like the bus went straight through the roundabout whereas the cyclist went around the roundabout. Harder to own a lane when someone is skipping using it or is too big to use it)

Wishbone Ash

UDP wrote: »

Reading the report it sounds like she must have kept to the edge of the road but indicated clearly her intent via a hand signal (road position is not clear from the article though). Not sure how the bus was overtaking the cyclist when it should have been behind her through the junction. It's very important to own the road/lane entering and exiting roundabouts to avoid people trying to overtake you while using them. Very sad for all concerned. (edit: on reading again it looks like the bus went straight through the roundabout whereas the cyclist went around the roundabout. Harder to own a lane when someone is skipping using it or is too big to use it)

From personal experience many female cyclists and particularly older female cyclists do not assert themselves on the road and especially roundabouts. Wiith respect to the deceased it's possible she entered the roundabout indicating right (eg 3rd exit) but remained on the left lane, intending to go all the way around in that lane - I see it all the time. The driver, seeing her right arm extended, may have thought that she was simply doing what many drivers do when entering a roundabout, indicating right and then left when going straight on (2nd exit).

CramCycle

Just to be clear, the accident happened after the roundabout, not on from the report.

chicorytip

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

From personal experience many female cyclists and particularly older female cyclists do not assert themselves on the road and especially roundabouts. Wiith respect to the deceased it's possible she entered the roundabout indicating right (eg 3rd exit) but remained on the left lane, intending to go all the way around in that lane - I see it all the time. The driver, seeing her right arm extended, may have thought that she was simply doing what many drivers do when entering a roundabout, indicating right and then left when going straight on (2nd exit).

Cyclists should be prohibited from entering roundabouts for safety reasons. The risks involved from mingling with mechanically propelled vehicles are blatantly obvious. Dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

Wishbone Ash

CramCycle wrote: »

Just to be clear, the accident happened after the roundabout, not on from the report.

The accident happened at the junction of Mitchell Street and Kickham Street which would be on the roundabout. They don't meet anywhere else. Mitchell Street is the second exit (i.e. straight on), Kickham Street is the 3rd exit (where the deceased was intending to go). The bus exited the roundabout at Mitchell Street.

Wishbone Ash

chicorytip wrote: »

Cyclists should be prohibited from entering roundabouts for safety reasons. The risks involved from mingling with mechanically propelled vehicles are blatantly obvious. Dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

Why not prohibit mechanically propelled vehicles from entering roundabouts if they pose such a risk?

kenmc

this'll end well.

CramCycle

Apologies, the article says the collision was after the bus exited the roundabout.

Eamonnator

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm open to correction but the purpose of an inquest is to establish what happened, not to apportion blame. The Gardai etc. may still bring charges if they deem it appropriate to do so.

As far as I remember, an inquest is held to establish the following:
1) Who the person was.
2) How the person died.
3) Where the person died.
4) When the person died.

Nothing else.

Wishbone Ash

From www.coroners.ie

An inquest is an inquiry held in public by a Coroner, sometimes with a jury.
In some deaths, inquests are legally required. In other cases, the holding of an inquest is at the discretion of the Coroner and the next-of-kin can make their views known to the Coroner, if they so wish.
A jury is required in the following circumstances;
Where death may be due to homicide (or a suspicious death);
Where death occurred in prison;
Where death was caused by accident, poisoning or disease requiring notification to be given to a Government Department or inspector;
Where death resulted from a road traffic accident;
Where death occurred in circumstances which may be prejudicial to the health or safety of the public;
Where the Coroner considers it desirable to hold an inquest with a jury.
Where an inquest is held with a jury, it is the jury-members (not the Coroner) who return the findings and verdict together with any rider or recommendation.
Most deaths reported to Coroners do not require an inquest. The purpose of the inquest is:-
To establish the facts surrounding the death;
To place those facts on the public record; and
To make findings on:
(a) the identification of the deceased
(b) the date and place of death, and
(c) the cause of death.
While the Coroner or jury may make a general recommendation designed to prevent similar deaths, they do not decide whose fault it was or whether there was a criminal offence.

Lemming

learn wrote: »

Even though the cyclist clearly indicated with a hand signal that she was not taking the first roundabout exit, the bus driver thought she did leave at that exit and being unaware that she was still there the accident occurred. Because no alcohol or speeding offence was involved the bus driver could not be cross examined.

I find it very surprising that the driver could not be cross-examined given that a fatality had occurred.

learn

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

The accident happened at the junction of Mitchell Street and Kickham Street which would be on the roundabout. They don't meet anywhere else. Mitchell Street is the second exit (i.e. straight on), Kickham Street is the 3rd exit (where the deceased was intending to go). The bus exited the roundabout at Mitchell Street.

Coming from Cathedral Street N75. to the roundabout, Mitchell Street is the first exit and Kickham Street the second, both exited into Kickham street where the accident took place. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.680113,-7.8072815,3a,75y,76.61h,83.86t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQIZ-XK29SM25uF7VDUGSFg!2e0!6m1!1e1

magicbastarder

Lemming wrote: »

I find it very surprising that the driver could not be cross-examined given that a fatality had occurred.

given the driver is quoted in the article as having given his understanding of the events, it certainly appears that he *was* cross examined.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

given the driver is quoted in the article as having given his understanding of the events, it certainly appears that he *was* cross examined.

I think cross examined means having your version of events challenged, e.g by opposing counsel.

UDP

CramCycle wrote: »

Just to be clear, the accident happened after the roundabout, not on from the report.

yes that was my reading too. It looks like the bus went straight through the roundabout, the cyclist around the roundabout. The cyclist then exits the roundabout to the same exit as the bus at which point the bus drives on leaving the cyclist no room but to get stuck and collide with the bus. The driver made an assumption and stopped looking at the cyclist to see where she was going. This is why it is important that cyclists be seen as other road vehicles rather than things that are in the way.

galwaycyclist

UDP wrote: »

yes that was my reading too. It looks like the bus went straight through the roundabout, the cyclist around the roundabout. The cyclist then exits the roundabout to the same exit as the bus at which point the bus drives on leaving the cyclist no room but to get stuck and collide with the bus. The driver made an assumption and stopped looking at the cyclist to see where she was going. This is why it is important that cyclists be seen as other road vehicles rather than things that are in the way.

It needs to be made a specific offence to overtake a cyclist on or approaching a roundabout.

Beasty

chicorytip wrote: »

Cyclists should be prohibited from entering roundabouts for safety reasons. The risks involved from mingling with mechanically propelled vehicles are blatantly obvious. Dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

Sounds to me you either have no understanding of cycling on open roads or are trolling. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but please do not come into the forum just to tell people who almost certainly have a far superior knowledge of the subject what is good for them. Please PM me if you require further clarification - do not respond to this message in thread

dermabrasion

The comment about cyclists about cyclist prohibited from using roundabouts is not realistic. However, there are roundabouts which are death zones. Sometimes you come across them, and don't really know the locality so as to avoid them or to understand the nuances of the traffic going through them.
My point is that there has been little thought by engineers to how cyclists can negotiate the large busy ones. Dismounting and waiting for pedestrian lights is BS.
Alternatively, it should be made illegal to overtake a cyclist on a roundabout until the cyclist exits. This might not have helped this unfortunate individual. (RIP).

HivemindXX

dermabrasion wrote: »

Alternatively, it should be made illegal to overtake a cyclist on a roundabout until the cyclist exits. This might not have helped this unfortunate individual. (RIP).

I was under the impression that you weren't supposed to overtake on a roundabout anyway. Anyone know the legislation for or against that?

Obviously multi-lane roundabouts (Walkinstown for example) create the wrong (in my opinion) idea.

a148pro

How can it be legal to overtake any vehicle on a roundabout? It's always dangerous

Iwannahurl

This is the roundabout.

Thank you, Irish planners and road engineers.

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It needs to be made a specific offence to overtake a cyclist on or approaching a roundabout.

As my children and I are cycling to school we are occasionally overtaken, when about to turn right on a single-lane-entry roundabout, as indicated in this image:



The overtaking motorists go out into the opposite carriageway a few metres before the roundabout, because of course waiting a few seconds for cyclists to clear the junction is intolerable.

magicbastarder

chicorytip wrote: »

Cyclists should be prohibited from entering roundabouts for safety reasons.

is this not like making murder illegal by banning the process of 'being murdered' instead of 'murdering'?

Borderfox

Ban cyclists from roundabouts???? how about the 90% of drivers that don't know the lane to be in or the correct method of indication or that they cut lanes!! Might aswell ban roundabouts seeing as they are useless

a148pro

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This is the roundabout.

Thank you, Irish planners and road engineers.

Can you describe what happened relative to that photo, I can't follow the description

galwaycyclist

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This is the roundabout.

Thank you, Irish planners and road engineers.

If thats the roundabout then its difficult to accept the characterisation of the incident as an accident. If it was a multilane roundabout with multiple exits then the argument that the driver lost sight of the deceased while circulating might hold water (he should probably still have stopped once he lost sight of her). In that case the idea that the deceased may have been manouvering for a different exit to that chosen by the bus driver might seem to have some basis.

This looks like a single lane , three arm, roundabout. If a cyclist enters that indicating right I dont see how there could be any doubt about where she was trying to get to. (based on current information)

Could it be that he just drove straight over the central island? Without waiting to be sure she was clear of the junction?

a148pro

I don't think it was th driver's fault. Coroner concluded it was an accident with no one to blame. Driver says he saw the cyclist losing control in his mirror. Sounds like she fell?

CatFromHue

galwaycyclist wrote: »

If thats the roundabout then its difficult to accept the characterisation of the incident as an accident. If it was a multilane roundabout with multiple exits then the argument that the driver lost sight of the deceased while circulating might hold water (he should probably still have stopped once he lost sight of her). In that case the idea that the deceased may have been manouvering for a different exit to that chosen by the bus driver might seem to have some basis.

This looks like a single lane , three arm, roundabout. If a cyclist enters that indicating right I dont see how there could be any doubt about where she was trying to get to. (based on current information)

Could it be that he just drove straight over the central island? Without waiting to be sure she was clear of the junction?

Saying no one is to blame when you look at the roundabout and they say

The bus went through the roundabout and moved out to overtake her but shortly after exiting the roundabout the bus impacted with her.

doesn't add up

galwaycyclist

a148pro wrote: »

I don't think it was th driver's fault. Coroner concluded it was an accident with no one to blame. Driver says he saw the cyclist losing control in his mirror. Sounds like she fell?

I would not place any reliance on the assessment of a coroner or a member of the Garda - personal policy. Also its not clear from my reading of the article who said what - its like the names are mixed up.

I am just working off the description in the news report. If the driver of the bus had stayed behind the cyclist on the roundabout like he is supposed to then how could he think she had turned off at the first exit? If that is what he is claiming then it seems to me - based on whats in the paper - that this could not have happened unless he took a different path through the junction to the path she used.

It may be that he had to take a different path because of the size of his vehicle. But in that case he had a duty to take account of the fact that other traffic would be following a circular path.

The central issue as I see it, based on current information, is how he could possibly have lost sight of her if he was making lawful use of the junction?

galwaycyclist

CatFromHue wrote: »

doesn't add up

Exactly, how can cctv show him pulling out to overtake her when the driver says he thought she was gone in another direction? Seems to me both things cannot be true.

ThisRegard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As my children and I are cycling to school we are occasionally overtaken, when about to turn right on a single-lane-entry roundabout, as indicated in this image:

I had a lady try go around me on the outside one morning making such an exit, so she would have been on the inside of me coming off the roundabout. I knew what she was up to so made eye contact, indicated to her not to do it and held my line. It was obvious where I was exiting.

She lost the head with me, not realising her own stupidity and danger she put me in had I not known she was there I would have pulled over on top, or under, her exiting.

learn

a148pro wrote: »

I don't think it was th driver's fault. Coroner concluded it was an accident with no one to blame. Driver says he saw the cyclist losing control in his mirror. Sounds like she fell?

You also would have lost control if a bus struck the wide handlebars of your bike. Why did the driver look in his mirror ?

learn

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Exactly, how can cctv show him pulling out to overtake her when the driver says he thought she was gone in another direction? Seems to me both things cannot be true.

It is more likely than not that the driver pulled out after striking the bicycle, the bicycle left marks on the side of the bus.