How do other schools deal with ...

icebergiceberg

Wondering how other school deal with this. Teacher steps out of class for a moment (I know, I know). Then in that moment all hell breaks loose. Could be books thrown around, bags thrown around or a table upturned or such like. All deny being involved or being in any way guilty.

Are you familiar with this situation and how is it dealt with in your place? is what you do effective? Thanks

km79

icebergiceberg wrote: »

Wondering how other school deal with this. Teacher steps out of class for a moment (I know, I know). Then in that moment all hell breaks loose. Could be books thrown around, bags thrown around or a table upturned or such like. All deny being involved or being in any way guilty.

Are you familiar with this situation and how is it dealt with in your place? is what you do effective? Thanks

As a science teacher I'd have to pop in and out of the prep/chemical room at the back a bit during some classes.
Firstly lay down the law hard and quickly ! I find first years take a couple of classes to understand the way things go......but most other years know the story. No talking no messing or extra homework for any caught or for all if it's widespread........
best thing to do though is make sure they are busy. If I have to set up an experiment or something I'll always try and make sure they are taking down notes of the overhead or a PowerPoint . Failing that a few questions from the book.
Takes a bit if planning but it's better than the situation you describe.
also be aware if something serious happens while you pop out of room you are liable .....

acequion

I would agree with the above poster that you really must lay down the law and make you make classroom rules very clear. If I need to pop out and they're not working on something specific,they're allowed relax and chat but under no circumstances can they leave their seats. Anyone caught out of their seat gets punished [extra homework or some such]. I find that works very well as they are allowed the leeway to chat to whoever is near. It all depends on the class though are there are classes that you couldn't chance leaving for even one second.

man_no_plan

It not really a school problem, its a teacher problem so there's no whole school way to deal with it.

Sometimes stepping out is unavoidable even if it is not advised. The best approach would be to ensure that if it has to happen again that you make sure the class knows better than to mess about. As for what may already have happened you have to make a call yourself as to how to deal with it.

A blanket punishment will be resented and may draw parents in - blaming you for not being there.

You could do an investigation and hot on a reliable kid for info but be wary that they may get the brunt of it if other kids know that they squealed.

I suppose depending on the reason the class was left unattended, the seriousness of what happened ( injury damage etc.) etc you will have to make a decision.

We all know that kids should behave at all times bit most things like this are pure crimes of opportunity. Its hard not to join in on the craic. What is to be gained or lost by following up or letting it slide?

icebergiceberg

km79 wrote: »

As a science teacher I'd have to pop in and out of the prep/chemical room at the back a bit during some classes.
Firstly lay down the law hard and quickly ! I find first years take a couple of classes to understand the way things go......but most other years know the story. No talking no messing or extra homework for any caught or for all if it's widespread........
best thing to do though is make sure they are busy. If I have to set up an experiment or something I'll always try and make sure they are taking down notes of the overhead or a PowerPoint . Failing that a few questions from the book.
Takes a bit if planning but it's better than the situation you describe.
also be aware if something serious happens while you pop out of room you are liable .....

I am afraid my classes are no angels. It does not really matter to my students if they are busy or not they will do the above. (I know the bit about about leaving the class but there are occasions when needs must).

So, if all deny being guilty, lets say for a thrown chair / teacher's desk being upturned/ one of the girl's schoolbag thrown around or even damaged school property, then it is extra homework for all? Does that work?

How about students who say 'you can not give me extra homework because I did not do anything wrong and I am not going to do any extra homework.' Do you get parents calling the office demanding to talk to you to say under no circumstances will my Mary be doing any extra homework when she did nothing wrong and you did not see her do anything wrong.

Thank you for your response.

km79

icebergiceberg wrote: »

I am afraid my classes are no angels. It does not really matter to my students if they are busy or not they will do the above. (I know the bit about about leaving the class but there are occasions when needs must).

So, if all deny being guilty, lets say for a thrown chair / teacher's desk being upturned/ one of the girl's schoolbag thrown around or even damaged school property, then it is extra homework for all? Does that work?

How about students who say 'you can not give me extra homework because I did not do anything wrong and I am not going to do any extra homework.' Do you get parents calling the office demanding to talk to you to say under no circumstances will my Mary be doing any extra homework when she did nothing wrong and you did not see her do anything wrong.

Thank you for your response.

to be honest I think you may need to look at your classroom management in general. If the kids are not afraid of the repercussions of turning over the teachers desk then something is very very wrong on the discipline side of things in general
on the extra homework thing....I would only ever give extra relevant homework I.we an extra question or 2 not lines or that kind of thing.
Therefore its relevant and the students are learning
you could also phrase it like this " I was going to give ye homework off this eveni g but now I'm so disappointed .......

rainbowtrout

icebergiceberg wrote: »

I am afraid my classes are no angels. It does not really matter to my students if they are busy or not they will do the above. (I know the bit about about leaving the class but there are occasions when needs must).

So, if all deny being guilty, lets say for a thrown chair / teacher's desk being upturned/ one of the girl's schoolbag thrown around or even damaged school property, then it is extra homework for all? Does that work?

How about students who say 'you can not give me extra homework because I did not do anything wrong and I am not going to do any extra homework.' Do you get parents calling the office demanding to talk to you to say under no circumstances will my Mary be doing any extra homework when she did nothing wrong and you did not see her do anything wrong.

Thank you for your response.

Well first off, does this happen in any other class in the school if a teacher leaves for a minute? Is it just your classes, or is it widespread? Is it just this particular group of students, or all classes that you teach?

Why do you need to leave the class? While a situation may arise where I need to leave the class, it's not that often overall. Like km79 I'm a science teacher so where I find this happening the most is popping in and out of the prep room, even with that I only have one group that would have messers in it, the rest would just get on with their work, or sit there quietly.

Turning over a teacher's desk, throwing chairs is fairly serious.

icebergiceberg

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well first off, does this happen in any other class in the school if a teacher leaves for a minute? Is it just your classes, or is it widespread? Is it just this particular group of students, or all classes that you teach?

Why do you need to leave the class? While a situation may arise where I need to leave the class, it's not that often overall. Like km79 I'm a science teacher so where I find this happening the most is popping in and out of the prep room, even with that I only have one group that would have messers in it, the rest would just get on with their work, or sit there quietly.

Turning over a teacher's desk, throwing chairs is fairly serious.

The idea of punishing all of a class for something that one or two have done is what I am interested in getting views on. The reason a teacher leaves a class is irrelevant. It could be like yourself- a question of just popping out. Teacher could just have put her head out the door to see what that loud bang or loud screech in the hallway was. It does not really matter. Let's not pop out at all.

You are writing on blackboard and an object- a book, a binder or whatever is thrown in your general direction. You could argue it was thrown at you but let's say it didn't hit you but it very well might have. Or a rubber was thrown at the board. You did not see who threw it but it is possible anyone in the class could have. You simply do not know. All the students say they did not see who threw it nor did they throw it themselves.

Throwing anything is serious stuff so do we punish them all? And thereby punish innocent parties?

I imagine this situation has come up before, so how does your school deal with that? I would argue that it is best to have a whole school approach so that every child knows the sure consequences of doing that in any classroom and everybody knows what happens next.

Does any school take this approach and how have they dealt with students who argue they are innocent?

Thank you for your response.

rainbowtrout

icebergiceberg wrote: »

The idea of punishing all of a class for something that one or two have done is what I am interested in getting views on. The reason a teacher leaves a class is irrelevant. It could be like yourself- a question of just popping out. Teacher could just have put her head out the door to see what that loud bang or loud screech in the hallway was. It does not really matter. Let's not pop out at all.

You are writing on blackboard and an object- a book, a binder or whatever is thrown in your general direction. You could argue it was thrown at you but let's say it didn't hit you but it very well might have. Or a rubber was thrown at the board. You did not see who threw it but it is possible anyone in the class could have. You simply do not know. All the students say they did not see who threw it nor did they throw it themselves.

Throwing anything is serious stuff so do we punish them all? And thereby punish innocent parties?

I imagine this situation has come up before, so how does your school deal with that? I would argue that it is best to have a whole school approach so that every child knows the sure consequences of doing that in any classroom and everybody knows what happens next.

Does any school take this approach and how have they dealt with students who argue they are innocent?

Thank you for your response.

The reason for leaving a class is extremely relevant. I have some lovely classes on my timetable, so much so that I could up and leave, head to the staffroom, have a cup of tea, come back 20 minutes later and there wouldn't be a sound and they would still be working. I don't, but it's nice to know that I have students that can be trusted. I have one class who are nuts. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. They are a year group that have been troublesome all the way up the school. I do not leave the classroom under any circumstances while I have them. If there is someone screaming blue murder outside on the corridor, I continue my class and let someone else who has a less difficult class worry about it.

If you are sticking your head out the door worrying about things that don't concern you, then you are giving the class reason to act the maggot. You mightn't see it like that but they are opportunists and will take every chance given to them, so you have to clamp down on them like no other class and put them in lock down if they are that badly behaved.

The group I have are much better behaved this year. They are LCs but it has taken 5 years to break them as a year group. Last year for some classes I gave them worksheets to do. When they had them done, they would cut out the relevant sections and sellotape them into their copies. They are an incredibly weak group as well. They were so busy with the worksheets, sellotape, scissors, glue that they didn't have time to think about messing, but the work still got done.

For some parts of the course I need to give some notes, all done on powerpoint so I don't have to turn my back to them, it also gives me a chance to get around the room to see what they are doing, check their copies etc.

I think to start with you might need to change your classroom management style to work with this group. No leaving the classroom under any circumstances. Ignore what is happening outside the door, it's not your concern. Because the day that a student gets injured in your class when you have your head stuck out the door, you will be responsible.

Change the way you teach them for a few weeks so there are less opportunities for them to throw things. It doesn't solve the problem completely but reduces their opportunities to cause trouble.


What is the disciplinary procedure in your school? Does the class have a year head? Maybe it's necessary for the year head to be called in. Are all of the class poorly behaved or is there a hardcore group within the class? Do you have a seating plan for the class or do they sit where they want? In most cases if something is thrown you should have a fair idea of what side of the room it has come from. Are you losing the head with them when something happens or are you ignoring it? If you are losing the head, then they are getting exactly what they want from you.

For what it's worth, my school doesn't have a specific policy on this type of behaviour because it would probably just come under the banner of poor discipline, but again, I asked in my earlier post, is this widespread throughout the school, just this group of students, or just this group of students when you have them for class? The answers are relevant, as if it is widespread throughout the school then the school has discipline issues in general. If it is just this group of students, then you need to look at if there is any teacher who has a handle on them and find out what they are doing, or raise the issue of these students at a staff meeting if this group are causing difficulties for several teachers. If they are only misbehaving for you, then it comes back to your classroom management and maybe you have to look at how you deal with these students in comparison to other teachers.

As for your query on punishments for all, personally I'm not a big fan. Occasionally it will work, but for instance when I know there is a hardcore of about 4 students who will try to cause trouble in my LC if they got the opportunity, there are 16-17 who don't. Punishing them doesn't get me anywhere, it creates resentment among the innocent and the ones who are the troublemakers aren't phased by punishments overall.

icebergiceberg

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The reason for leaving a class is extremely relevant. I have some lovely classes on my timetable, so much so that I could up and leave, head to the staffroom, have a cup of tea, come back 20 minutes later and there wouldn't be a sound and they would still be working. I don't, but it's nice to know that I have students that can be trusted. I have one class who are nuts. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. They are a year group that have been troublesome all the way up the school. I do not leave the classroom under any circumstances while I have them. If there is someone screaming blue murder outside on the corridor, I continue my class and let someone else who has a less difficult class worry about it.

If you are sticking your head out the door worrying about things that don't concern you, then you are giving the class reason to act the maggot. You mightn't see it like that but they are opportunists and will take every chance given to them, so you have to clamp down on them like no other class and put them in lock down if they are that badly behaved.

The group I have are much better behaved this year. They are LCs but it has taken 5 years to break them as a year group. Last year for some classes I gave them worksheets to do. When they had them done, they would cut out the relevant sections and sellotape them into their copies. They are an incredibly weak group as well. They were so busy with the worksheets, sellotape, scissors, glue that they didn't have time to think about messing, but the work still got done.

For some parts of the course I need to give some notes, all done on powerpoint so I don't have to turn my back to them, it also gives me a chance to get around the room to see what they are doing, check their copies etc.

I think to start with you might need to change your classroom management style to work with this group. No leaving the classroom under any circumstances. Ignore what is happening outside the door, it's not your concern. Because the day that a student gets injured in your class when you have your head stuck out the door, you will be responsible.

Change the way you teach them for a few weeks so there are less opportunities for them to throw things. It doesn't solve the problem completely but reduces their opportunities to cause trouble.


What is the disciplinary procedure in your school? Does the class have a year head? Maybe it's necessary for the year head to be called in. Are all of the class poorly behaved or is there a hardcore group within the class? Do you have a seating plan for the class or do they sit where they want? In most cases if something is thrown you should have a fair idea of what side of the room it has come from. Are you losing the head with them when something happens or are you ignoring it? If you are losing the head, then they are getting exactly what they want from you.

For what it's worth, my school doesn't have a specific policy on this type of behaviour because it would probably just come under the banner of poor discipline, but again, I asked in my earlier post, is this widespread throughout the school, just this group of students, or just this group of students when you have them for class? The answers are relevant, as if it is widespread throughout the school then the school has discipline issues in general. If it is just this group of students, then you need to look at if there is any teacher who has a handle on them and find out what they are doing, or raise the issue of these students at a staff meeting if this group are causing difficulties for several teachers. If they are only misbehaving for you, then it comes back to your classroom management and maybe you have to look at how you deal with these students in comparison to other teachers.

As for your query on punishments for all, personally I'm not a big fan. Occasionally it will work, but for instance when I know there is a hardcore of about 4 students who will try to cause trouble in my LC if they got the opportunity, there are 16-17 who don't. Punishing them doesn't get me anywhere, it creates resentment among the innocent and the ones who are the troublemakers aren't phased by punishments overall.

You seem to be in a school with interested students and that's good. I don't.

I don't have a computer in my class.

Students get injured in a class when teachers are present too.

My heart missed a beat when you mentioned scissors.

Even if I know (and it may be difficult to be 100% certain) which side of the room it comes from we are still talking about a group of students who are denying involvement. And this is the point. Whether it be 5 students or 30.

Sticking my head out ? Things that don't concern me? I can hear what is going on in the corridor and if I hear Johnny shouting outside my class I know he is on the warpath. I know he wants to get at Joey in my class. I need to check are there staff around him. He probably wants to get into mine and throw a punch or a chair at Joey, so I do feel it does concern me and the health and safety of the students to stick my head out and to stand in the doorway to stop entry. Otherwise, I will not know if there are staff dealing with him but if not , he will charge in and attack. Who is responsible then?

However, as I already pointed out, I am not particularly concerned with teachers leaving class or sticking their heads out and it is this regard that the first couple of lines in your penultimate paragraph is more pertinent where you outline your schools lack of policy on a blanket punishment.

My own philosophy would for a blanket punishment. All the student know the consequences for everybody once something like that happens and then wait for peer pressure to take place. Hopefully, someone will fess up. If not, well they know the score.

How have other people managed situations like this?

Many thanks, rainbowtrout, for your thoughts.

rainbowtrout

Well that gives a clearer idea of what your school is like.

What does management have to say about discipline problems in your school? Are they hands on or are they just ignoring the problem and hoping it will go away?

icebergiceberg

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well that gives a clearer idea of what your school is like.

What does management have to say about discipline problems in your school? Are they hands on or are they just ignoring the problem and hoping it will go away?

That's an interesting question. I think perhaps there is no facing up to problems.

I think I need a reality check on expected behaviour.
1. Would a student throw a rubber at staff in your school? What would happen to the student if they were caught doing that? (never mind if they were not seen/caught)

3. What would happen if a student spat on the floor of your class?I don't mean a little spittle thing, I mean the full thingy thing.

And very much off topic: Do staff take a cup of tea into classrooms and what is the school's view on that?

And these are the things I am thinking about and writing about on a Saturday evening? What a sad life!!!
Thank you rainbowtrout.

rainbowtrout

icebergiceberg wrote: »

That's an interesting question. I think perhaps there is no facing up to problems.

I think I need a reality check on expected behaviour.
1. Would a student throw a rubber at staff in your school? What would happen to the student if they were caught doing that? (never mind if they were not seen/caught)

3. What would happen if a student spat on the floor of your class?I don't mean a little spittle thing, I mean the full thingy thing.

And very much off topic: Do staff take a cup of tea into classrooms and what is the school's view on that?

And these are the things I am thinking about and writing about on a Saturday evening? What a sad life!!!
Thank you rainbowtrout.

1. No, of course it has happened, but they are generallly isolated incidents, or students that are known to cause trouble rather than it being a widespread problem.

2. What would happen them? Well it would probably depend on the situation, the teacher in question might give them a detention. They might take it to the year head. We have a system where we have forms available to us and if there is a serious breach of discipline, we fill in the form and give it to the year head. Year head then has a meeting with the student, maybe with principal or DP present depending on the nature of the problem. E.g. one of my (troublesome) LCs decided to start squirting water at another student with a dropper in the middle of a practical about two weeks ago. So I took the dropper off him, and reprimanded him. I have learned with this class that arguments in the middle of class don't solve anything and if anything give entertainment to the rest of them, figured I'd deal with him at the end. It didn't get to that. So I had taken the dropper off him and reprimanded him and told him it wasn't acceptable behaviour etc. In response he called me a f*cking lunatic. :rolleyes: So I just said to him very calmly "Let me be clear here, because I took a dropper off you that you were squirting at another student, you have called me a f*cking lunatic" and walked away and got on with the rest of the class. I didn't have to do anything else. There was no more trouble out of him. That was the end of the issue. He knew what was to come. So said form filled in, student hauled into office. Had to come back to me and give me an apology and has got a suspension for swearing at me.


Students have never spit on the floor in our school.

Teachers don't take tea into classrooms. We're not actually allowed take tea out of the staffroom in case we spill it on the corridor and someone falls on it and injures themselves [and makes a claim]


On the tea thing, I'm assuming you're against it, but in my opinion it's not particularly professional for a teacher to go through class drinking a cup of tea while teaching. I'd also imagine if there is a no eating/drinking rule in your school, it flies in the face of that to have teachers going into classrooms with cups of tea.

icebergiceberg

rainbowtrout wrote: »

1. No, of course it has happened, but they are generallly isolated incidents, or students that are known to cause trouble rather than it being a widespread problem.

2. What would happen them? Well it would probably depend on the situation, the teacher in question might give them a detention. They might take it to the year head. We have a system where we have forms available to us and if there is a serious breach of discipline, we fill in the form and give it to the year head. Year head then has a meeting with the student, maybe with principal or DP present depending on the nature of the problem. E.g. one of my (troublesome) LCs decided to start squirting water at another student with a dropper in the middle of a practical about two weeks ago. So I took the dropper off him, and reprimanded him. I have learned with this class that arguments in the middle of class don't solve anything and if anything give entertainment to the rest of them, figured I'd deal with him at the end. It didn't get to that. So I had taken the dropper off him and reprimanded him and told him it wasn't acceptable behaviour etc. In response he called me a f*cking lunatic. :rolleyes: So I just said to him very calmly "Let me be clear here, because I took a dropper off you that you were squirting at another student, you have called me a f*cking lunatic" and walked away and got on with the rest of the class. I didn't have to do anything else. There was no more trouble out of him. That was the end of the issue. He knew what was to come. So said form filled in, student hauled into office. Had to come back to me and give me an apology and has got a suspension for swearing at me.


Students have never spit on the floor in our school.

Teachers don't take tea into classrooms. We're not actually allowed take tea out of the staffroom in case we spill it on the corridor and someone falls on it and injures themselves [and makes a claim]


On the tea thing, I'm assuming you're against it, but in my opinion it's not particularly professional for a teacher to go through class drinking a cup of tea while teaching. I'd also imagine if there is a no eating/drinking rule in your school, it flies in the face of that to have teachers going into classrooms with cups of tea.

I am 100% against it for the above reasons, not just H&S reasons but it looks so bad. Next, teachers will be wearing slippers. But if the Principal is seen sneaking around the corridors with cup in his hand, then there is no hope.

Pinkycharm

i used work in a school similar to yours and jesus i had my work cut out for me. so i made a deal with them, we had a double geography on a friday where i would bring in buns that i made and they could have one while doing their work. If everyone scored above a pass in a test they got an animal bar or a pack of haribo. bribery can be everything sometimes. I know one teacher used to take her students to the home ec room once a fortnight and make them breakfast! the school would be very disadvantaged and they have a lot of travellers also- but ya know what- they arent the worst of it! so i remember there was a bargin alert here a few years back for an ipod shuffle so i bought three and the students who made the most improvement in every part of school life got them at the end of the year. i remember going around to all the teachers and asking for a written report to hand over to them with the ipod and they were delighted. the most problematic student i ever had said he'd beat the head off me one day when i took his hurl off him and really got in my face about it. i stood my ground with him- no little s*** was going to speak to me that way so i told him instead of being a drama queen in the middle of class, come to me at the end of class and we'd sort it.

end of class I closed the door and sat down and just asked him simply whats up with the attitiude. He burst into tears saying that he was just so unhappy at home, parents were separating and he was under pressure at home so was not in a great environment for him. he wanted to leave school and get a job because finances at home were stressed. I felt for the fella but we got the ball rolling for him and by the end of the year he had changed completely. i remember the day i was leaving and he thanked me for taking that 5 minutes to just let him vent. i suppose we never know what any of them are going to especially with all the pressures of today being on their shoulders.

sometimes that's all it takes. and to be honest its made me a lot softer towards some of them. thats 4 years ago now- god time flies!

icebergiceberg

OK.
How has your school dealt with students willfully damaging school property and essentially refusing to pay for cost of repair. The parents are basically unwilling to pay also. Damage to a chair costing, lets say, 30 Euro.

I am interested in what has been done by your school to get reimbursed and if that was successful not what your school would do.

Many thanks.

rainbowtrout

icebergiceberg wrote: »

OK.
How has your school dealt with students willfully damaging school property and essentially refusing to pay for cost of repair. The parents are basically unwilling to pay also. Damage to a chair costing, lets say, 30 Euro.

I am interested in what has been done by your school to get reimbursed and if that was successful not what your school would do.

Many thanks.

Hard to know. I know bills have been sent to parents when their don/ daughter has caused damage. At that point the problem is with management so I have no idea if the parents pay the bill or what percentage of those bills are paid

icebergiceberg

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Hard to know. I know bills have been sent to parents when their don/ daughter has caused damage. At that point the problem is with management so I have no idea if the parents pay the bill or what percentage of those bills are paid

It is an extremely frustrating situation whereby parents themselves (never mind the students) do not face up to their responsibilities. The parents probably do not care if their child is suspended.

The parents say they have not got the money to pay. Yet the child is constantly referring to a match on TV which would have been on Sky Sports. Is a child to be expelled because he caused 30 Euro worth of damage and the parents claim inability to pay? What has the world come to I say!

Thank you, rainbowtrout, for your reply.