Harvesting rainwater with no down pipe.

dashcamdanny

I need a water butt as I want to pump water upstairs for my toilets.

But before I look at that problem, I have to consider the main problem.

I live in a terrace house and have no drainage gully or down pipe coming from the gutter. The next door neighbor has the down pipe and the drain.



I was thinking that I could add a down pipe that only extents to sofit level and cap the end, and add a diverter within the few inches of down pipe.

Then run a diverter pipe to a water butt below.

Would this be possible. If so, how would I stop the flow when the butt fills.

Tokyo

You could drill the underside of the gutter, and bring a small pipe down from this into the water butt. Simplest solution would be then to have an overflow from the water butt into the nearest outside drain, alternatively you could fit a ballcock to the water butt - when the water butt is full, the ballcock doesn't allow any more water, and your neighbour's downpipe takes 100% of the runoff instead.

dashcamdanny

mike_ie wrote: »

You could drill the underside of the gutter, and bring a small pipe down from this into the water butt. Simplest solution would be then to have an overflow from the water butt into the nearest outside drain, alternatively you could fit a ballcock to the water butt - when the water butt is full, the ballcock doesn't allow any more water, and your neighbour's downpipe takes 100% of the runoff instead.

Thanks . great idea..

I would need a flush fitting for the pipe. Does that type of thing exist?

I would need a ballcock as the nearest drain would be indoors. I have no outdoor drain.

25mm white pipe would be ok I think. Or should I go bigger

Tokyo

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Thanks . great idea..

I would need a flush fitting for the pipe. Does that type of thing exist

Something like a water tank connector would do, I would imagine... Might also be worth putting a small baffle in the gutter itself to back up the water just a little - you'll siphon more off that way, and any excess will just spill over the baffle.

dashcamdanny

This is great advise. Its going to be cheaper than I thought.

I could use 45mm pipe with a bath drain at the top. T it off near the bottom to 25mm and have some type of accessable dirt trap at the bottom.

Tokyo

How big of a water butt are we talking here? You're talking some pretty big fittings and pipe sizes at the moment. If it's a small water butt, then for what it will take to fill it, something hosepipe-sized taken from the underside of the gutter will be more than enough. If you're planning a bis storage tank for pumping water to the toilets in the house and so on, it might just be more straightforward to fit your own downpipe.....

dashcamdanny

I was thinking of a 210L water butt and then pumping to a 100L coffin tank in the attic. From there I will have to figure out how to bring the water to the toilets while maintaining my normal water supply.

Because the roof is large and covers 8 houses , there should be a good water harvest. Keeping the price down is hard as I am looking a nice looking tanks and for 500L they start to get very expensive.

fergal.b

You would be surprised how powerful a pump you will need to get the water up that high as there will be a lot of weight in the water it's not the same as pumping it vertical, just might be something worth thinking about.



.

dashcamdanny

I was reading on another place
Every foot requires approx 1/2 psi to lift it ie. 20ft = 10 psi

Maybe this would work . .6bar is about 10psi I think.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/K%C3%A4rcher-SDP7000-Submersible-Water-Pump/dp/B0012PVBD2/ref=pd_cp_diy_3

fergal.b

I can't see a centrifugal pump holding back the weight of the water and the atmospheric pressure.



.

Tokyo

I would imagine that an inline pump would be more effective.

Seamus1964

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was thinking of a 210L water butt and then pumping to a 100L coffin tank in the attic....

You need a lot more than that..and they are not expensive at all

1000L Water Storage Tanks cost in DoneDeal between 60 - 90 euro.

( http://www.donedeal.ie/farmservices-for-sale/water-storage-tank/7347503 )

210L is nothing...forget about that..

dashcamdanny

Seamus1964 wrote: »

You need a lot more than that..and they are not expensive at all

1000L Water Storage Tanks cost in DoneDeal between 60 - 90 euro.

( http://www.donedeal.ie/farmservices-for-sale/water-storage-tank/7347503 )

210L is nothing...forget about that..

I guess one could clad that with timber to make it not look like a big horrible tank in the garden.

fergal.b

When looking for a pump to pump up hill you need to know it's "head height or lift height" I'd say you would be looking for something like a well pump and that will cost you a few years water supply :eek:


.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was reading on another place
Every foot requires approx 1/2 psi to lift it ie. 20ft = 10 psi

Maybe this would work . .6bar is about 10psi I think.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/K%C3%A4rcher-SDP7000-Submersible-Water-Pump/dp/B0012PVBD2/ref=pd_cp_diy_3

Seamus1964

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/IBO-1-BOOSTER-PUMP-WZC250-24l-PRESSURE-TANK-electric-water-pump-SUPER-QUIET-/181371734951?pt=UK_HomeGarden_Garden_PondsWaterFeatures_UK&hash=item2a3a990ba7

Inexpensive solution..

dashcamdanny

My house has used 107k Liters since last November when my meter got fitted.

I have to do it.

Im looking at a over 400 euro a year in charges in the future.

Thoie

This may be the worst idea in the world ever, but is there anyway you could take the pipe from the gutter straight(ish) through into the tank in the attic? Save you having to pump it back up again. Doesn't give you any real storage for dry spells though.

dashcamdanny

Thoie wrote: »

This may be the worst idea in the world ever, but is there anyway you could take the pipe from the gutter straight(ish) through into the tank in the attic? Save you having to pump it back up again. Doesn't give you any real storage for dry spells though.

The gutter would be lower than the tanks by about 4 feet. I was hoping that I could also use the water tank below as a settling tank and do a bit of filtering before it went into my duel flush cisterns. They are a bit sensitive to dirt.

BryanF

OP
why not research gravity feed rainwater harvesting systems. adding a pump is just replacing a water charge with an electricity charge.

dashcamdanny

I looked into the big gravity fed systems, and they look really expensive. They still require pumping to upstairs.

So . Going to keep it simple. 1 downstairs toilet. Outdoor gardening water and maybe the washing machine.

The 1000L IBC tanks are not going to work for me as they look terrible.

I could start with 210L water butt and if I need more, I can double up on one and join them. They are 45euro locally .

Excuse the crude drawing but this seems like a plan. Today the water butt would be brimming.



The problem would be filtering the water clean enough for the toilet system and keeping the feed from the gutter clear and unblocked so it did not stop the ballcock from working. I could plumb an overflow but it would have to go into the sewer and not the storm drain. Im not sure if that's allowed.

The toilet is a 6/9 litre duel flush which I could switch back to mains when its dry

GreeBo

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I looked into the big gravity fed systems, and they look really expensive. They still require pumping to upstairs.

So . Going to keep it simple. 1 downstairs toilet. Outdoor gardening water and maybe the washing machine.

The 1000L IBC tanks are not going to work for me as they look terrible.

I could start with 210L water butt and if I need more, I can double up on one and join them. They are 45euro locally .

Excuse the crude drawing but this seems like a plan. Today the water butt would be brimming.



The problem would be filtering the water clean enough for the toilet system and keeping the feed from the gutter clear and unblocked so it did not stop the ballcock from working. I could plumb an overflow but it would have to go into the sewer and not the storm drain. Im not sure if that's allowed.

The toilet is a 6/9 litre duel flush which I could switch back to mains when its dry

I wouldnt be putting rain water anywhere near my clothes, keep it for the toilet and garden use where it doenst need to be "clean".

A leaf filter would be all you need in this instance, however you need to ensure you are filtering the leaves from somewhere they wont clog the system.

filling into one smaller vessel and then overflowing around the edge into the main with the filter around the top of the first vessel should work well. You can wrap multiple layers of chicken wire around vessel #1 to catch the crap and even as it fills with leaves it will always be able to overflow.

fergal.b

A 3/4" down pipe like that will give you no end of blockages it will only take one leaf or lump of moss to have you running up and down a ladder Do you have a garden shed that you could put gutters on you would be supprised how much you can get over a small area.




.

Tabnabs

Would it also be fair to say you'd never fit a 1000L IBC through your house?

lgk

dashcamdanny wrote: »

So . Going to keep it simple. 1 downstairs toilet. Outdoor gardening water and maybe the washing machine.

Keep it very simple so, you won't have enough pressure to run the washing machine. There's a reason they're all plumbed to the mains line and not fed from attic tanks. Most require 1 bar pressure to operate.

Check out what pressure is required to operate the toilet vale. The top of the water level in your tank will likely need to be high enough above the valve height to generate this pressure.

Seamus1964

And thats where the pressure pump comes to the picture..

+1 - washing machine is big no no unless you can filter rainwater properly.

210L water tank is simply just not enough unless it is raining every second day or so to fill it up.
Get at least 500L or similar

You can add now and again cup of bleach to the tank to kill bacteria?

dashcamdanny

Thank god I came here and asked.

Looking like a non runner now.

drdidlittle

Have you looked at this from another point of view. What are you using all the water on. Simple fixes can go a long way before you start all the hassle of water pumps, blockages, electricity bills etc......

dashcamdanny

drdidlittle wrote: »

Have you looked at this from another point of view. What are you using all the water on. Simple fixes can go a long way before you start all the hassle of water pumps, blockages, electricity bills etc......

I have made lots of improvements.

I have cut the flow from the power shower by 60% with a new shower head and fixed the 2 leaking cisterns. Trying to get household attitudes to change may be a bigger problem.
I will be going to get a gutter for the shed. This will give me water for the garden. But with an outlay of over 70euro , it will take a long time to pays off.

Trying to keep within my allowance will be impossible. and with all this rainwater, and not being able to use it, I am getting frustrated.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/poor-road-visibility-as-up-to-40mm-of-rain-forecast-1.1950690

beauf

What was the shower head.

dashcamdanny

beauf wrote: »

What was the shower head.

Had a wee thread about it here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057274379

65535

The 'gravity' system you have designed would still be OK for the toilet.
But you would need bigger tanks or join the smaller ones together.
Mesh filtering on the gutters where the downpipe is and
'Milk Filter Socks' (about €12.50 for 100 of them).

Definitely the washing machine would need a pump.

65535

If you are in Dublin you can get a water butt with a rainwater diverter from
dublin.ie
/environment/water-butts.htm
for €40
That would start you going

dashcamdanny

I think moving the down pipe up to 2" would be better, but then how do I fit a ball cock to the barrels. So much rain today..

65535

Well if you could get one of those 'rainwater diverters' they send the water into the barrel and if there is any water coming back to indicate that the barrel is full then it diverts the water down the usual pipe to the shore.

What is the reason for a ball cock at the barrels - is it to stop water coming in when they are full ?

slimjimmc

65535 wrote: »

Well if you could get one of those 'rainwater diverters' they send the water into the barrel and if there is any water coming back to indicate that the barrel is full then it diverts the water down the usual pipe to the shore.

What is the reason for a ball cock at the barrels - is it to stop water coming in when they are full ?

His problem is that he doesn't have an outside drain which he can use, hence the ballcock idea. Personally I don't believe a ballcock is feasible. It'll get blocked or jammed with grit and if the barrel is full any additional rainfall will simply fill the downpipe. Unless the downpipe and all joints are water tight you'll get leakage and potential for damp internal walls. The downpipe and joints would also need to be strong enough to support the extra weight of a 4m high column of water.


OP. If all possible, consider opening an outside drain which will allow you use a standard downpipe/diverter setup. Check with your local authority as it's likely there's a surface water drainpipe or combination sewer already running behind your house or you could pipe into a soak pit at the end of the garden.

65535

Apologies, I did read it all but missed that point !

OP - Is there an existing drain for your kitchen at the back of the house near where you want to bring down the drainpipe ?

tayto lover

Some great ides in here. Cheers lads.

65535

Hi Tayto,
Yes it's great to see this kind of stuff
Fair play to the OP he actually has a more difficult setup in that he has no existing downpipe.

Looking forward to setting up my own, plans are made out and some prices got but waiting for the pay day again to get a few bits.

Are you going to try and do something as well ?

65535

slimjimmc wrote: »

His problem is that he doesn't have an outside drain which he can use, hence the ballcock idea. Personally I don't believe a ballcock is feasible. It'll get blocked or jammed with grit and if the barrel is full any additional rainfall will simply fill the downpipe. Unless the downpipe and all joints are water tight you'll get leakage and potential for damp internal walls. The downpipe and joints would also need to be strong enough to support the extra weight of a 4m high column of water.


OP. If all possible, consider opening an outside drain which will allow you use a standard downpipe/diverter setup. Check with your local authority as it's likely there's a surface water drainpipe or combination sewer already running behind your house or you could pipe into a soak pit at the end of the garden.

True about the weight, It should be an overriding consideration, 1 litre being 1 kilo.
Also covering any barrels to keep kids and water insects away.
And securing the barrels that they don't fall over or get loose.

lgk

65535 wrote: »

OP - Is there an existing drain for your kitchen at the back of the house near where you want to bring down the drainpipe ?

From the 1997 Building Regs...

no part of a drainage system conveying surface water shall be connected to a sewer reserved for foul water.

The LA should be able to confirm if you have access to a Combined Drain, in which case you may drain surface water to it.

dashcamdanny

lgk wrote: »

From the 1997 Building Regs...



The LA should be able to confirm if you have access to a Combined Drain, in which case you may drain surface water to it.

Was thinking that.

The missis wanted me to put it down into the radon sump . :pac:


I could dig a soak pit , as its not that much of an overflow, but now its all getting a bit messy.

I have instead invested in a big stick to beat the children with if they flush the toilet more than once a day.

Time will tell if its worth paying out on harvesting.

North West

Hi Dashcamdanny
Would your next door neighbour let you entend the gully to your house ?. If so you could do what you want with a rainwater system. It will only be rainwater going into that extended drain and would not cause any problems. Then you could consider what size tank you could use. If he would agree that you could try it and if you have a problem you could undo it again.

Consider this when buying your tank:
1 person will flush the toilet on average 4 times per day which is equal to approx 32 Ltrs of water per day. Multiply that by the number of persons in house.
A washing machinr uses 60 Ltrs per cycle. For 1 week see how many timrs the toilet is flushed and how many washes you put on. That will gave an average weekly consumption of water for those. You will be surprised how much water is used.
NW

cerastes

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was reading on another place
Every foot requires approx 1/2 psi to lift it ie. 20ft = 10 psi

Maybe this would work . .6bar is about 10psi I think.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/K%C3%A4rcher-SDP7000-Submersible-Water-Pump/dp/B0012PVBD2/ref=pd_cp_diy_3

1 bar is about 14.5 psi, 6 bar is 87 psi, I'm sure