Question about cyclist during driving lesson

Rosie5

I had a lesson with my driving instructor today, we were on a narrow road and there was a cyclist in front of us. There was also cars behind us, he told me that I should overtake the cyclist as we were holding up traffic. I didn't feel comfortable doing this, but I trusted his judgement and expertise. We ended up too close to the cyclist who would have ended up on either the wind screen or bonnet of the car and the instructor had to do an emergency break.

Now if we had ended up hitting her, would I have been liable?

Also I referred back to my theory book

'What should a driver do if hindered by a cyclist ahead?'

'Stay well back until there is an opportunity to overtake' which is what I would have done.

This has also made me doubt his instruction? Any feedback would be much appreciated.

ProudDUB

Why would you have hit the cyclist, if the instructor did not intervene? Were you driving too fast at the time, or did you not have enough clearance to over take the cyclist?

Of course it would have been your fault if you had hit the cyclist. It certainly wouldn't have been the cyclists, unless you could prove that they were doing something illegal or unsafe at the time.

December2012

I'm guessing the OP wonders if the instructor would be liable, not the student and certainly not the cyclist?

That is something I'm not sure about, you could chat to your instructor at the start of your next lesson.

While you weren't comfortable doibg the overtaking, lessons are designed to teach you how to drive safely. That includes safe overtaking,

Rosie5

I was not blaming the cyclist!! What I mean't was that there wasn't enough clearance to begin with in the first place, so I wouldn't have overtaken that cyclist if the instructor hadn't have told me to. I was driving at the right speed.

ProudDUB

December2012 wrote: »

I'm guessing the OP wonders if the instructor would be liable, not the student and certainly not the cyclist?

I'd say that the person behind the wheel of the car at the time of the accident, would be the one held liable, if any tickets or prosecutions were involved. From an insurance point of view, the instructors insurance policy would be on the hook for any damage/injuries caused.

Rosie5

December2012 wrote: »

I'm guessing the OP wonders if the instructor would be liable, not the student and certainly not the cyclist?

That is something I'm not sure about, you could chat to your instructor at the start of your next lesson.

While you weren't comfortable doibg the overtaking, lessons are designed to teach you how to drive safely. That includes safe overtaking,

I just didn't feel that I could complete the overtaking manuovre safely because I was so close to the cyclist, it just made me doubt my instructors judgement as I am learning at the moment so relying on his prompts in certain situations.

Cedrus

Presuming that the learner was driving on the instructors insurance, any direct claims for recompense would be against this and the learner would not be liable.
However, any criminal charges would be against the driver in charge of the vehicle (ie the learner).

However (again) there is nothing to stop the cyclist from suing the learner, or the instructor suing the learner or the learner suing the instructor except who gets in first.

krissovo

Rosie5 wrote: »

I just didn't feel that I could complete the overtaking manuovre safely because I was so close to the cyclist, it just made me doubt my instructors judgement as I am learning at the moment so relying on his prompts in certain situations.

Get a new driving instructor! You will never fail a test for not overtaking a cyclist if you feel it is unsafe to so. A cyclist needs about 1.5 meters clearance from a car to overtake safely. On a narrow lane you follow normal rules of the road as if a slow moving vehicle like a tractor is in front of you.

Rosie5

I was much closer than 1.5 metres, the instructors exact words were that I needed to speed up and over take the cyclist as we were holding up traffic, surely not hitting the cyclist was more important. I was actually very shocked as my previous driving experience is quite limited. I have had 3 lessons with him so far and really don't know how he has such good testimonials on his website if this is his attitude to teaching.

Skrynesaver

You should avoid hindering other road users where practical, however if you have insufficient room to complete an overtaking manoeuvre safely you shouldn't overtake.

You will find that there are some impatient half-wits out there who think L-plates are an invitation to test their horn, ignore them and drive at a pace and in a manner that you are comfortable with and such that you feel in control of your vehicle.

I'd probably recommend changing instructor as a driver must feel confident in their decision making and if you don't have confidence in your instructor you'll be second guessing your actions all the time.

Rosie5

But there was noone actually honking at us at that time and yes I do think that I would be second guessing his actions now if I were to continue taking lessons with him. Thanks everyone for all the advice and input.

Lumen

How wide was the road?

Rosie5

it was a fairly narrow road close to the town centre without any lane markings

my3cents

OP you were right the driving instructor was wrong. Firstly you can only drive one car you can't be driving all the cars behind you so don't worry about them. Then yes you should overtake when its safe to do so but if you don't think its safe then thats a decision you are expected to make you don't automatically squeeze past cyclists just to keep someone driving behind you happy. For all the driving instructor knew the cyclist could have swerved around a pot hole as you over took so you have to leave a minimum of 1.5m and that is a minimum.

Eamonnator

Cyclists are traffic, too.

They are entitled to the same consideration as all other traffic.

Alanstrainor

Eamonnator wrote: »

Cyclists are traffic, too.

They are entitled to the same consideration as all other traffic.

Pretty much this. It can be frustrating, and cars can build up behind you, but your judgment was correct OP, all you can do is wait for an opportunity to properly overtake, and if one doesn't arise all you can do is stay behind the cyclist.

Fair play to you, it's good to reflect on such situations.

my3cents

Driving instructors for whatever reason nearly all have this you mustn't slow down the flow of traffic mentality. Its so bad that my wife still thinks if she is not driving at the speed limit then she isn't driving correctly.

We still have rows ten years after she past her test along the lines "my driving instructor said ....." and all I can put it down to is that driving instructors stress points that people fail but they get to the point were its a mindless repetition and they don't always say it at the right time.

meathstevie

If you're under instruction by someone from a legal point of view that person is driving as well and driving offences like careless, dangerous and drink driving are applicable to both people involved in driving the vehicle. That also applies to an experienced driver accompanying a learner, not only driving instructors.

I can't tell you why

Rosie5 wrote: »

it was a fairly narrow road close to the town centre without any lane markings

Does this mean a one way street or a lane without enough space for a car to fit past a cyclist at all, or were you trying to do this while staying on your half of the road?
Or were there parked cars making the road more narrow?
Or on coming cars?

Rosie5

The gap between us and the cyclist was clearly too small, we were both on the left side of a narrow road, don't think that there was any parked cars though.

I can't tell you why

Rosie5 wrote: »

The gap between us and the cyclist was clearly too small, we were both on the left side of a narrow road, don't think that there was any parked cars though.

Thanks, for the clarification.
Was there constant oncoming traffic or was it intermittent?
Or none at all?

my3cents

Obviously I don't know what happened exactly OP but one scenario might be that if you had taken note of the cyclist as soon as your saw them then with more experience you would have assessed the situation quicker. In that case you might have noticed if you kept your speed up and gone around the cyclist with plenty of room before the on coming traffic got close So perhaps that's what the instructor was trying and failing to tell you. However assessing things well in advance is something that only comes with practice and experience.

Did you perhaps slow down to the speed of the cyclist and then look to see if you could overtake?

Rosie5

There was no incoming traffic, just a very narrow town road with the cyclist that had come up on our left quite suddenly, but I had seen her, I just don't think that there was any way that I could have over taken her safely, even as an experienced driver so would have prefered to stay behind her till I found a safer opportunity to over take. (Possibly a wider road). Because of our actions, she was nearly knocked of her cycle.

Earlier on in the same lesson on a different road, there was a horse and cart in front of us, this road was also quite narrow, this time with parked cars. The instructor asked me if I was to going wait behind it. I wanted to again hang back for a few seconds, shortly he started to move out into a road on the right hand side using a hand signal and may not have even been aware we were behind him if I started to overtake. Though ofcourse, this I can't be sure of.

my3cents

Rosie5 wrote: »

There was no incoming traffic, just a very narrow town road with the cyclist that had come up on our left quite suddenly, but I had seen her, I just don't think that there was any way that I could have over taken her safely, even as an experienced driver so would have prefered to stay behind her till I found a safer opportunity to over take. (Possibly a wider road). Because of our actions, she was nearly knocked of her cycle.

Earlier on in the same lesson on a different road, there was a horse and cart in front of us, this road was also quite narrow, this time with parked cars. The instructor asked me if I was to going wait behind it. I wanted to again hang back for a few seconds, shortly he started to move out into a road on the right hand side using a hand signal and may not have even been aware we were behind him if I started to overtake. Though ofcourse, this I can't be sure of.

Sounds like you did the right thing I was just looking to see if there was a good reason for the driving instructors actions. In this case it looks like you might want to find another instructor.

I can't tell you why

Rosie5 wrote: »

The gap between us and the cyclist was clearly too small, we were both on the left side of a narrow road, don't think that there was any parked cars though.

Why did you not use the right side of the road?

Lemming

Rosie5 wrote: »

Earlier on in the same lesson on a different road, there was a horse and cart in front of us, this road was also quite narrow, this time with parked cars. The instructor asked me if I was to going wait behind it.

That question would make me think about getting a new instructor tbh. It says a couple of things, none particularly positive;

1. He's impatient
2. He isn't factoring in your lack of experience in making driving decisions and is trying to push you into making rash decisions.
3. In encouraging rash decisions he's setting a bad example for a learner
4. He's impatient (I'd go so far as to say "god-given-right-to-road-by-drivers" cock by his apparent attitude towards other road users not in cars)

Rosie5

On a previous lesson he told me not to slow down or hesitate turning into an estate road, as doing that might invite a pedestrian, who was standing on the edge of the pavement at the time, to think that they could cross the road. I am looking at booking a lesson with another driving school now.

my3cents

Rosie5 wrote: »

On a previous lesson he told me not to slow down or hesitate turning into an estate road, as doing that might invite a pedestrian, who was standing on the edge of the pavement at the time, to think that they could cross the road. I am looking at booking a lesson with another driving school now.

WOW! He sounds more like a mad psychologist than a driving instructor.

Rosie5

lol...lol, but there was someone on the pavement at that time when he said it and I remember thinking, surely slowing down would be the right thing to do incase they suddenly stepped out.

Mars Bar

You most definitely need a new instructor!!

mrcheez

If you have 1.5m clearance to the RHS of the cyclist then you are able to overtake.

If not, wait behind until you do.


(whoops this has been mentioned a few times already)

I can't tell you why

Rosie5 wrote: »

The gap between us and the cyclist was clearly too small, we were both on the left side of a narrow road, don't think that there was any parked cars though.

You say you were both on the left side of a two way street with no oncoming traffic. What was the problem with using the right side of the road. If it is wide enough for two cars, surely it is wide enough for a bike and a car.

my3cents

I can't tell you why wrote: »

You say you were both on the left side of a two way street with no oncoming traffic. What was the problem with using the right side of the road. If it is wide enough for two cars, surely it is wide enough for a bike and a car.

If there were no road markings how could it have been wide enough for two cars?

Rosie5

We had been practicing along the narrowest roads possible that day. I just don't recall there being any room on the right hand side at all, I think that if the problem was that I moved too close to the cyclist whilst overtaking, the instructor could have easily have nudged the wheel from his side, but I really don't think that was the case. I only recall there being cars behind us and that cyclist who came up on the left at some point. Could have been oncoming traffic, but many of those roads were one way, so I am not sure.

mrcheez

I'd say the instructor just wanted to rush so the lesson didn't over-extend the 1 hour allocation.

I can't tell you why

my3cents wrote: »

If there were no road markings how could it have been wide enough for two cars?

There are thousands of miles of roads with no road markings.
It is in no way uncommon.
If don't know well enough what a road looks like you should consider holding back on your advice in the driving forum.

I can't tell you why

@Rosie5:

I'm going to play devils advocate here. Your driving instructor may not be trying to kill anyone. But the problem may be with how they explain things.

They may have meant carefully catch up with the cyclist so you can get past them at a wider part of the road that was coming up. Ultimately cars should carefully overtake cyclists and drive faster. In a broad sense this is correct. The communication, timing and control was flawed in your case. It is probably the same with the horse. Cars should drive faster then horses. Cars should overtake a horse and cart. You can't wait behind them until they are off the road. But again this is to be done carefully and at an appropriate time.

The pedestrian is a similar issue. You should always slow down enough to turn and still be able to stop for some expected or unexpected reason. You do have to drive around the corner making reasonable progress, not braking excessively or unexpectedly for the benefit and safety of other drivers. If the pedestrian had seen you and had no intention of crossing you should continue, carefully. Considering they were standing at the side of the road it does suggest they were waiting. If they were walking to the side of the road without looking then you might be more likely to expect them to step out. The point your instructor made is valid, that if you slow down excessively then you may add the complication of the pedestrian walking out when they were not planning to.

Your instructor seems to think you have a problem with lack of progress and being OVER cautious. You do have to start driving at a speed that suits you, but you do need to make reasonable and appropriate progress to drive properly, safely and to pass your test in the future.

Rosie5

Some of above may be true, to a certain extent. However, I did come away from my lessons, feeling that something wasn't right in any of those situations. We lived in Denmark for several years were there are more cyclists than motorists on the road, though they do mostly have their own designated areas, they can end up on the road too. In all the time, travelling as a passenger with my husband, I never saw him try to overtake a cyclist in this type of situation and sometimes I think he drives too fast and can be a little impatient on the road. I might be a cautious driver, but I would rather be that than end up killing someone on the road and I certainly don't think I would pass any driving test for trying to squeeze past a cyclist on a narrow road and not showing courtesy to other road users.

I can't tell you why

I, like everyone else here was not in the car. The obvious exception being yourself. Others have made some extreme statements that are based on your side of events. I am only trying to show a possible, other side of the story, to give some balance. This is to perhaps improve your driving if it needs it. Maybe there was a safe opportunity to get past the cyclist. Maybe there was more appropriate speed to corner past the pedestrian. Nobody would want to hit a cyclist etc. But some people might justifiably more confident in safely driving through a space, that you would not. Take my intention as you did in the first half of your reply.
PS: I do still say get another ADI. But just because that instructor is bad at communicating rather the because he is trying to kill people.
Good luck and enjoy your driving.

Rosie5

The first 2 incidents that occurred in my lessons I could have put down to my lack of experience, and I gave the instructor the benefit of doubt and trusted him as a professional person teaching me a skill. Might I add that I otherwise thought he was generally a pretty good instructor and were it not for this I would have continued with him. I do need to improve my driving and that's what I am using the lessons for. I don't think that it was the confidence that was missing in the case of the cyclist though or a lack of communication, he clearly told me to speed up and overtake. Afterwards he started grumbling at what the cyclist just did, because she swerved and how it would be our fault entirely if we had hit her etc or caused an accident. I think that if this had happened as a result of my actions or lack of, he would told me this.

I can't tell you why

Rosie5 wrote: »

The first 2 incidents that occurred in my lessons I could have put down to my lack of experience, and I gave the instructor the benefit of doubt and trusted him as a professional person teaching me a skill. Might I add that I otherwise thought he was generally a pretty good instructor and were it not for this I would have continued with him. I do need to improve my driving and that's what I am using the lessons for. I don't think that it was the confidence that was missing in the case of the cyclist though or a lack of communication, he clearly told me to speed up and overtake. Afterwards he started grumbling at what the cyclist just did, because she swerved and how it would be our fault entirely if we had hit her etc or caused an accident. I think that if this had happened as a result of my actions or lack of, he would told me this.

That sounds more like his mistake. Someone earlier mentioned 1.5M as a fair distance from a cyclist. This would allow for the cyclist to swerve and still have safe space. Cyclists will frequently swerve to avoid puddles or potholes and justifiably so.