Idle gossip or more ?

LegacyUser

This may sound strange and I know it is impossible to completely understand motives or otherwise.

A number of years ago I was in the habit of going to a particular shop (I will leave the type of shop vague as it isn't relevant to the story).

One of the customer service people there was a local woman from not too far from where I am now living.
She is friendly and she would make pleasant small talk the local community and the fact that our children were attending the same national school, etc.
Anyway, one day she happened to slip into conversation that she was once a pupil where my father in-law once was employed as a teacher.
Her tone slightly changed and she became visibly more assertive (and caustic) and she told me that she had to be frank that she had to say she was terrified of him back then.
I didn't really know how to react as I was in an awkward situation given my relationship through marriage to the man in question.
Also, I was in a public place and someone was behind me in a queue and I was frankly a tiny bit stumped for words.

Now the period when she would have been at school would have included a harsher time when corporal punishment was still on the statutes, etc.
So, reading between the lines she may have been just venting because we all can have mixed feelings about teachers we liked and disliked as youngsters.
It was just it left me feeling a bit uneasy as to why she chose to vent an inner feeling like that to me of all people and so many years later.
It seemed almost like she had plucked up some courage after many years and felt empowered to let her gut feelings about someone out.
It was just that I found the encounter a little odd given that she probably must have realised that I could have potentially taken offence.
I didn't, of course.. it left me more confused than offended and I wrapped up my business with her as I have no experience of the man regarding his career,etc.

Not sure where I am going with this except .. can anyone figure out why someone might feel compelled to air misgivings and character judgements like that to a relative ?

indigo twist

I'd forget about it to be honest.

Firstly, I think that as children, we all viewed our teachers as "teachers" rather than as real people. And some of them were thought of by the students as being particularly "mean" or "horrible" etc, when in reality, they were strict-but-fair teachers who were just doing their job. I'm thinking in particular of my junior infants teacher - all through primary school, I was terrified of her (as many other students were). She was very strict, and she did tend to shout a lot. But with hindsight, I can see that she was completely fair and an excellent teacher who went above and beyond for her students. And on top of that, she's a very good friend of my mothers, and she is an absolutely lovely generous caring person. But here's the thing - if I hadn't gotten to know her properly as I got older (i.e. through my mother), I'd probably still look back and remember that scary woman I was terrified of at the time.

Secondly, even if it happened that the woman had been subjected to corporal punishment at the time, you have to accept that unfortunately this was the norm up until a few decades ago. Many parents, grandparents and teachers were subjected to it themselves as they were growing up. I fundamentally disagree with the use of corporal punishment, and it's entirely possible that this woman may have experience permanent emotional damage as a result of it. But, if your father-in-law was only going by his training and school policy at the time, I don't think it's fair to allow this to affect your opinion of him. And in any case, you don't even know for sure that he did physically punish her at any time - the teacher I mentioned above never laid a finger on any of us, and we were still scared of her!

I really think you're overthinking the whole thing. This woman isn't someone close to you, she's someone you may well never encounter again. If this is the only concern you've ever had about your father-in-law, then it's one I'd forget about. I mean, if you were getting similar reactions from several people when your father-in-law was mentioned in passing, then maybe it would be a reason to maybe investigate further. But this seems like a total once-off, not worth worrying or wondering about.

Tokyo

Sounds like she didn't have the best of memories of her school days, and you gave her an opening in conversation about your father in law for her to vent her distaste at the man as a teacher. To a certain extent this is country village mentality - everybody assumes that everybody else knows the goings on of everybody else, including what they are like as people, now and 50 odd years ago. Unless you have any other reasons to be concerned, I wouldn't read much more into it than that, personally, and if it happens again, just tell her that you don't feel comfortable discussing your in-laws like that.

Rubberchikken

Is this conversation something thst happened a long time ago or is it just recent, I'm just a little confused.

You could be right in that she had worked up the courage to say it out loud to someone.

For your sake it's best forgotten.
If she approached you about it again you could chose to tell her you can't talk about it or you could listen to what she actually wants to say.

thefeatheredcat

Was this a once off and a few years ago? If so, then why is it an issue now for you? Did something happen recently to remind you of this?

I would guess that at the time, if you have/had children at the same school, it is possible that the surname was familiar or she had worked out you were the relative of the teacher she had, it may have been eating away at her for a while and she may have been dealing with memories of her own childhood and the teacher in your father in law she had. She probably never has had the opportunity to confront your father in law in dealing with how she felt about him as a teacher - and may never want to for any reason - but found she could confront the matter through you, to get off her chest.

LegacyUser

Yes, this conversation happened a few years ago.
I prefer not to go into detail as to why it popped back into my head again just now.
I do find my own relative a difficult man on many levels and I probably don't want my own prejudices to cloud my thinking, obviously.

I don't want to read too much into the conversation I had with the lady.
She had struck up conversation on a few occasions while I was in the shop and in general she was quite a chatty person.
I did get the sense as one poster put it as if she hadn't vented her opinion on the man with him directly and that maybe she was able to get some level of closure by doing the next best thing and voicing her honest opinion to a relative.
Her reservations would definitely have nothing to do with his teaching ability as he is definitely very strong in that area.

In a way it seemed extraordinarily honest of her to air her reservations like that.
It didn't seem like malicious bad mouthing more heart felt.

ivytwine

My father is of that generation, and when he talks about the corporal punishment he suffered at the hands of the Brothers he does get angry. My friend's parents suffered very badly with the Brothers and Sisters of Mercy (lol) and her dad in particular is very resentful and angry about his education.

This doesn't mean they're angry all the time, but if the subject is brought up they will get very emotional about it. And they definitely weren't taught by your father in law!

For a lot of middle aged people in Ireland their education is a sore point and I think this lady is no different. I'm afraid you aren't able to ease her pain, I'd let it go.

freshpopcorn

I've often heard people talk about there times in school and say certain teachers/brothers/nuns were vile and cruel. They'd freely admit this to anyone because it's the truth and they've nothing to be ashamed of.

Merkin

Why would you give a passing encounter that happened years ago a moments thought? What exactly is the issue? I'm not being rude, I'm genuinely confused as to what the issue is and how this is causing you angst or upset.

deisemum

Have you got children and has something about your father in laws behaviour reminded you of how he's terrified someone when he was a teacher?

Although corporal punishment was allowed a lot of teachers didn't bother with that but some teachers were nasty evil f*ckers who got off on it and were particularly cruel. I went to a small rural school with female teacher teaching JI to 2nd class and the paedophile master teaching 3rd to 6th class. Both were extremely nasty. They made the nuns I had in secondary school look like angels.

This post has reminded me of a contribution that the adult son of the bitch teacher submitted to a book on the history of the school and to say I saw red when I read his comment that she said she'd never hit a pupil would be an understatement. I've occasionally thought of contacting him and putting him in the picture about the true nature of his mother as he's had that comment printed.

As for the paedophile master he was just evil.

LegacyUser

Deisemum - your post is poignant.

Just to explain it isn't that I am upset just I am niggled by it.
I just have some concerns and I don't want to enter into them in this online discussion but rest assured they aren't just plucked out of the sky.

It may be nothing.
On the balance of everything it maybe that the pillar of the community thing may have worn thin on the lady who probably saw a different side to his character and maybe it jarred with her and she saw me as a buffer to try and vent long held misgivings.

deisemum

Well with all the scandals to now be called a pillar of the community is not a good thing.

My father in law is a nasty man but years ago when my husband who's a lovely man and the complete opposite to his father was working on a job a colleague didn't realise the connection when a group of them were discussing different tutors from college. This man went on a rant expressing his opinion of my father in law in very strong and colourful language. My husband mentioned that he was his son much to the amusement of the rest of the group. My husband told his father about it and my father in law took great pleasure in hearing what the lad thought of him.

meeeeh

I was terrified of quite a few teachers. Not because of corporal punishment (there was none in my time) but because they were deamanding. I remember art history teacher that I loved her but those who were not interested in art history were absolutely terrified of her. I would be terrified of my physics teacher (I loathe physics) that some others thought was great.

If you have a problem with your father in law then deal with it but don't use some chit chat from years ago to validate your feelings.

thefeatheredcat

OP I've read your posts over a few times since.... I'm getting the impression that perhaps there is an issue surrounding the character of your father in law and perhaps, with this remark having re-surfaced from memory, it's bothering you because you have questions about not actually what she said, or her intent, or reason for saying it but the details she didn't say that somehow relates to current concerns? Do you think there might be more to what she said than what she let on, or are you only half thinking, half hoping that isn't the case?
I'm not sure what advice or insight anyone can provide because it is impossible to tell why she said that or what was meant in it if even anything relevant at all to a current situation.

LegacyUser

thefeatheredcat - Yes you sum it up reasonably well.
I realise that I cannot receive concrete advice on this.
I suppose I was just trying to get opinions on her possible motives particularly as she knew I was related and that it could potentially get back to him. (It never did).

It is one of those things where I am hoping her intent was just to air her dislike for his modus operandi when he was a teacher (most likely more his operational modus operandi for discipline and rules admin stuff).

And, like you say there is a niggling doubt that maybe she meant more and I realise now from reading the replies, etc that I am unlikely to ever know fully where she was coming from.

Betty Bloggs

desperadio wrote: »

thefeatheredcat - Yes you sum it up reasonably well.
I realise that I cannot receive concrete advice on this.
I suppose I was just trying to get opinions on her possible motives particularly as she knew I was related and that it could potentially get back to him. (It never did).

It is one of those things where I am hoping her intent was just to air her dislike for his modus operandi when he was a teacher (most likely more his operational modus operandi for discipline and rules admin stuff).

And, like you say there is a niggling doubt that maybe she meant more and I realise now from reading the replies, etc that I am unlikely to ever know fully where she was coming from.

OP I could be completely wrong but I am getting the feeling that in hindsight you think this woman was not just venting, but was actually in some way trying to warn you about somebody bad about your father in law.

I'm getting this impression because you are really questioning a lot why she told you, and you don't think she was being malicious but was telling you something "heartfelt".

You have told us that this happened years ago but is really niggling at you now, because of concerns you have regarding your father in law at present which you don't wish to discuss online which is understandable.

I am wondering whether these concerns are in relation to how your father in law behaved towards your husband growing up, or if you have kids, how he might behave towards them.(example cruel or aggressive) You don't have to answer that, just saying how I'm reading your post and again I could be taking you up completely wrong.

If I'm not taking you up completely wrong, then if I was in your shoes I wouldn't just ignore whatever niggling concerns you are having. They are there for a reason, and that reason is not just because of what some woman in a shop said years ago. They are there right now, and that past conversation is just something that you are remembering in relation to whatever is causing you concern right now.

I would try to speak to the woman again, but that is just me personally and it might not be very good advice for your situation. Just saying what I would do.

Can you speak to your husband about what concerns you are having or whatever it is that is niggling at you?
I think you should speak to somebody about this.

LegacyUser

Betty Bloggs - many thanks for your contribution.

You have read between the lines very well.
Just one thing - I am male so my DW father we are discussing.

He is actually a force for good in my children's lives as I see it.
I think that perhaps his harshness may have been commensurate with the times, i.e when discipline with iron fist was more the order of the day and he is very likely to have mellowed with new times and norms , etc.
However, there is a niggling concern about some stuff that does put me a bit on alert and it may be due to crossed wires and I prefer not to elaborate even if that is frustrating for those reading my post.

I know that some people on forums can get impatient and wish to draw out detail but I have good reasons to keep those details offline as they may amount to very little.
I have considered subtly bringing that topic up with the lady in question at some point and I'm still undecided as to if I will or not.

Betty Bloggs

desperadio wrote: »

Betty Bloggs - many thanks for your contribution.

You have read between the lines very well.
Just one thing - I am male so my DW father we are discussing.

He is actually a force for good in my children's lives as I see it.
I think that perhaps his harshness may have been commensurate with the times, i.e when discipline with iron fist was more the order of the day and he is very likely to have mellowed with new times and norms , etc.
However, there is a niggling concern about some stuff that does put me a bit on alert and it may be due to crossed wires and I prefer not to elaborate even if that is frustrating for those reading my post.

I know that some people on forums can get impatient and wish to draw out detail but I have good reasons to keep those details offline as they may amount to very little.
I have considered subtly bringing that topic up with the lady in question at some point and I'm still undecided as to if I will or not.

You've every right to not elaborate here online if you don't wish to.

I still maintain though that you need to speak to somebody about whatever it is that is putting you "on alert".
Whether that is the woman in question, your wife, or a very close trusted friend is up to yourself.

If you don't speak to somebody these concerns might just build up and get worse.

Speaking to certain people might unfortunately confirm some of your concerns, but in that case you can at least do something about it and figure out how to progress and deal with the issues.
Or, speaking about it with certain people could actually clarify things and put to rest any of those concerns you have which would of course be what you hope for.

I couldn't personally let something possibly serious keep niggling at me though, which is why I'm recommending you speak to somebody.
You could also try to unearth some things you are questioning by asking certain types of questions in a casual fashion and observing the reactions these questions elicit in whomever it is you are concerned about. Strange reactions might open the door for you to have a gentle conversation about your concerns without directly accusing anybody of something.

LegacyUser

I do think that women can have very good instincts on character of men and that is partly why I do think there might be more to what that lady was telling me.

December2012

Have you mentioned this to your wife?

You might find talking with her will either confirm or ease your fears.

ahnow

Hi OP,
Just read through this thread, and my reading of what happened is that she is trying to warn you about him, without spelling it out. What would she have to gain by telling you this?

I would pay attention to the niggling concerns that you have and not take it lightly and not let your judgement be clouded if at all possible about it because of who he is. What I think you may be talking about is extremely common, much more than people realise, and happens mostly with relatives and friends of the family. Speaking from experience, my parents didn't listen to any niggling concerns about my grandfather, and I'm still suffering 20 years later because of it.
If I were you I would not give anyone that opportunity with my children, the price you have to pay literally ruins generations of families. If possible try and talk to the woman to clarify, but whatever you do, do not ignore or dismiss the concerns that you have.

Neyite

Op, it might be worth meeting with or phoning Barnardos. They would be used to working with vulnerable children and would know from what you tell them whether you have cause for concern or not, and give you practical advice if needed.

LegacyUser

Neyite :

It is a bit premature for me to talk to Barnardos, etc.
I have a lot of respect for them and I even subscribe.
However, at this point I am just assembling what might be chinese whispers and may amount to nothing.
I do think ahnow's post is very poignant but I have to be careful to calmly assess stuff before jumping to conclusions.

Neyite

Well, I hope then that your assessment turns out to be the right one OP.

LegacyUser

I caught sight of that lady who used to work in the local shop earlier this morning.
It is going to take time before I have an opportunity to take her aside or catch her in casual conversation to bring that old conversation up.

ahnow - not sure if you are reading this thread but I am wondering to some extent what the lady might even know.
My own guess is that as much as she would know would be just some unease about her former teacher which might be just her own gut instinct.
It may be no more than she remembers his strictness at school and when she passes him on the street she just thinks - oh that creepy teacher I used to have.
If we are on the same page about my concerns I would be surprised if she has any substantive knowledge of the man other than just her instincts.

ahnow

Hey, yes you might not get anything concrete from her at all.
I suppose all you can look at are your own concerns, you were concerned enough to actually post on here and ask what others-strangers-might think of the situation. Personally, if I felt that way that would be enough for me, and I don't mean accusing someone of something, I just mean I wouldn't be willing to give the person in question the opportunity to either confirm or deny my concerns. The risk and damage is too big for the sake of saying "I wasn't sure".
That is of course unfair if the person in question is innocent, but it's not something you'll ever know for sure until it's too late.
I cant add anything else or give you advice on the situation, it's really a personal call, sorry I cant be any more help!

LegacyUser

Hi OP. My ex-boyfriend's father was a teacher, and the majority of his friends had been taught by his father at different stages throughout their primary school education. It wasn't discussed much (out of respect for my ex), but the common consensus was that the man was a tyrant in the classroom, and a complete bully. This, too, we found out later, extended to his home life.

He physically "punished" all of his male children and it continued until they reached an age when they'd physically fight back. He was abusive toward his wife, which eventually, years later, led to their separation. Now, I am not at all suggesting that this is the case with your father in law, but what I will say is that concerns, particularly with regard to your own child or children, should never be ignored or left unaddressed.

My ex's father did mellow quite a lot with age, but I never once saw any of his children leave their own children alone in a room with him. It is a sad, sad state of affairs, but the man had very set ideas on discipline and punishment, and none of them would risk putting their own children in a situation that might test him.

As I said, I'm not suggesting this could happen to you, or that this type of abuse is at all what you're worried about, but I really do think you should discuss your concerns with your wife. She, more so than a former pupil of his, would have a much better idea about what her father is capable of. If she is unable to talk about it, or if she refuses, conduct your own subtle investigation, speak to this woman and keep a weather eye out. Above all, trust your instincts.