ATH First Round Match 7 : Legend DIT Vs MoneyMaker

beakerjoe

Just 2 more matches to go for the opening round of ATH 2014 and its Match 7 next, as Legend DIT takes on The Mizs Face Moneymaker



Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Question 7: Internet darlings eh? Just browse through the pages on boards and you will always see a few names pop up that the IWC just love. Are they really all that? There must be someone that the IWC loves that doesn't deserve all that praise because they actually aren't as good as we think. Who is the one person that the internet loves that has been hyped up too much in your view?

Give reasons for your answer.

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g'luck and have at it folks!

Moneymaker

It pains me to say this, but my choice is;



There's no question Regal is an internet darling. The man lives and breathes the business. He's a fantastic technical wrestler. However, it seems a vast majority of fans consider him one of the most under-rated wrestlers EVER. A large percentage seem to think Regal should have been WWE Champion.

WWE Champion? Ahead of the likes of Mr.Perfect, Jake Roberts or Razor Ramon? Even Owen Hart.

For me, that's madness. Obviously in the ring he was technically very good, but he lacked the charisma or in-ring presence that an absolute top guy has. He could wrestle a certain style(and do it very well) but for me he lacked variety. Take HBK, he can brawl, he can do technical wrestling, high flying, he can tell a great story. That's just one example of skills Regal lacked. He was a great wrestler, a great professional wrestler, but he was a not a good sports entertainer. For me as a hardcore fan of 20 years, i'm looking for the total package.

When I think back on Regal's career, I think I enjoyed him most in a mid card comedy act. I think of the twisted Commisioner drinking the spiked tea, I think of the desperate, slimy coward so desperate to keep his job, he'll kiss his boss's backside. He did the comedy well but again, he lacked the variety and the charisma to be a WWE Champion and earn the right to be called 'an internet darling'.

Another one of Regal's flaws was his penchant for screwing up. When it did look like he might get a push to the top in 2008, he won KotR and he was going places, he had a Wellness Violation. Today the man is an example of the success WWE has had in rehabbing guys who had addiction issues, but regardless, he blew his chance.

So for me, William Regal is an example of an internet darling who doesn't justify his status as such.

Legend_DIT

Great topic, and one that an answer jumped out at me immediately.



Dolph Ziggler is an interesting case - I genuinely think he is one of the few internet darlings to not have had a significant career in the indies or in Japan (I'm thinking Bryan, Punk, Ambrose, Fergal etc...) Of course, his first significant exposure was as pat of the Spirit Squad and he did well to survive this and be re-packaged as the poorly named Dolph Ziggler.

He debuted in September 2008 (that's right, the Ziggler character is on our screens for 6 years!) and he was suspended for violation of the wellness policy less than a month after his debut!

As a heel, Dolph was at his strongest when paired with the heat machine that is Vicky - he never was able to generate that level of interest among the typical fan himself.

As a face, Dolph has never been convincing and has not been able to successfully adapt his character according to the role he plays.

While he is certainly athletic, his over exuberance in the ring can detract from the quality of the match as his flopping around and jumps which have too much height merely for the sake of it do not convey intensity, they serve as a constant reminder that Dolph is trying to "sports entertain" us.

But what about Raw after Wrestlemania where he won the title and the crowd went wild? That made him seem like a bigger deal than he actually is for a couple of reasons.

1. The composition of the crowd - which did not reflect a typical audience. As he is an IWC darling, this "smart" crowd made more noise.
2. The crowd was already rowdy so were prone to make noise if something grabbed their attention

Since then, I have seen more and more people claim Ziggler should be given the ball and pushed hard. Let's face facts here people. Dolph is not a strong babyface and when occupying a heel role, is more likely to raise irritation rather than anger, leading to him being paired with Vicky and AJ in order to build heat onto him. He has reortedly been told to downplay his selling by management, which he continues to ignore, and he has a habit of running his mouth in interviews complaining about his position. He makes constant claims that he "steals the show" or is looking to do so at big events. While there is no denying that he has good matches on a consistent basis, he is cocky about his abilities in a way which I don't feel he has ever delivered on.

He has been given a few opportunities at the top of Smackdown, but his failure to deliver and connect with the wider audience has been evident and it's for this reason he's been moved back to a 2nd tier level, with little hope of being re-elevated now that there's only 1 top title. He will not feature in driving the future of the WWE. Insanity is doing the same thing multiple times and hoping for different results.

This is Dolph Ziggler and he is vastly overrated by the IWC.

Moneymaker

Legend_DIT wrote: »

Great topic, and one that an answer jumped out at me immediately.

Dolph Ziggler is an interesting case - I genuinely think he is one of the few internet darlings to not have had a significant career in the indies or in Japan (I'm thinking Bryan, Punk, Ambrose, Fergal etc...) Of course, his first significant exposure was as pat of the Spirit Squad and he did well to survive this and be re-packaged as the poorly named Dolph Ziggler.

This right here is why he ISN'T overhyped. One of the common traits of an "internet darling" is a guy with a strong background in the indies.

Ziggler was put into an infamously bad stable that should have killed his career before it even started. What ever happened to the other members? The fact he's managed to overcome this speaks volumes imo.

Regal never quite grew past the mid card comedy act. To this day he's most known for the infamous entrance theme when he was a Lumberjack.

Legend_DIT wrote: »

He debuted in September 2008 (that's right, the Ziggler character is on our screens for 6 years!) and he was suspended for violation of the wellness policy less than a month after his debut!

As a heel, Dolph was at his strongest when paired with the heat machine that is Vicky - he never was able to generate that level of interest among the typical fan himself.

A foolish mistake no doubt. You can excuse it as a stupid mistake from a young kid. Regal also had a Wellness violation when he was receiving the biggest push of his career in the twilight of his career. A man of his age and experience should have known that was his final shot, and he blew it.

Legend_DIT wrote: »

As a face, Dolph has never been convincing and has not been able to successfully adapt his character according to the role he plays.

While he is certainly athletic, his over exuberance in the ring can detract from the quality of the match as his flopping around and jumps which have too much height merely for the sake of it do not convey intensity, they serve as a constant reminder that Dolph is trying to "sports entertain" us.

I completely disagree with this. Payback 2013 is a match where Dolph plays the babyface role to perfection. A rare double turn, and it was executed brilliantly. Mainly down to Dolph's selling and his ability to tell a story.

While his selling might be comedic sometimes, he's dealing with a large viewing audience and the people in Row Z have to experience the same thing as the guys in the front row.

Legend_DIT wrote: »

But what about Raw after Wrestlemania where he won the title and the crowd went wild? That made him seem like a bigger deal than he actually is for a couple of reasons.

1. The composition of the crowd - which did not reflect a typical audience. As he is an IWC darling, this "smart" crowd made more noise.
2. The crowd was already rowdy so were prone to make noise if something grabbed their attention

Indeed it was, but Ziggler frequently gets the loudest pops of the night everywhere he goes. Despite not being pushed. Casual fans as well as smarks love Ziggler. Could you say the same for Regal? I doubt it. Ask a casual fan about Regal and they may not even remember him.

Legend_DIT wrote: »

Since then, I have seen more and more people claim Ziggler should be given the ball and pushed hard. Let's face facts here people. Dolph is not a strong babyface and when occupying a heel role, is more likely to raise irritation rather than anger, leading to him being paired with Vicky and AJ in order to build heat onto him.

I've already addressed the babyface argument, lets look at the heel argument.

Lets take Rick Rude. One of the best heels of the 1980s/1990s. He was paired with Bobby Heenan. One of the best heels of all time. Rude was against this as he felt Heenan would steal his heat. That doesn't mean Rude was a poor heel, it simply means he was associated with a better one. Vickie has been one of the best heels of the modern era, and perhaps the greatest female ever. Find me a heel on the roster who would surpass her heel heat?

Now more then ever it's harder for wrestlers to draw heat. Especially when you consistently put on great matches and everyone knows you bust your ass. Rollins is probably the only heel who gets consistent heel heat without relying on a xenophobic anti-American gimmick or a authority figure. Even then, Rollins frequently gets cheered(Thank you Rollins!, when he laid out Cena).

Legend_DIT wrote: »

He makes constant claims that he "steals the show" or is looking to do so at big events. While there is no denying that he has good matches on a consistent basis, he is cocky about his abilities in a way which I don't feel he has ever delivered on.

I disagree, Dolph has had a string of great matches and feuds.

Rey Mysterio, Summerslam 2009
Daniel Bryan, Bragging Rights 2010
Edge, Royal Rumble 2011
Sheamus, NWO 2012
Jericho, Summerslam 2012
Randy Orton, NOC 2012
Alberto Del Rio, Payback 2013 and MitB 2013

In the last few weeks he's had a string of good matches with the Miz. The Miz of all people. Live reports from house shows often state the best match of the night involved Ziggler.

When you think of Regal's best matches, they're often low-mid card opening bouts. If you go back to the 90s, he had lots of good technical bouts with the likes of Malenko, but again Regal is very one dimensional in his wrestling style. He lacked the personality or energy that's required imo. Yet internet fans think he's one of the best in-ring performers who never won the title? Give me a break.

Legend_DIT wrote: »

He has been given a few opportunities at the top of Smackdown, but his failure to deliver and connect with the wider audience has been evident and it's for this reason he's been moved back to a 2nd tier level, with little hope of being re-elevated now that there's only 1 top title. He will not feature in driving the future of the WWE. Insanity is doing the same thing multiple times and hoping for different results.

This is Dolph Ziggler and he is vastly overrated by the IWC.

He was injured due to no fault of his own. Who knows how that run would have worked out. I for one believe Ziggler is a great talent and fully deserves to be an internet darling, as well as being over with the casual fans.

You can't say the same about William Regal, imo.

Legend_DIT

In my opinion, the fact that William Regal is over-rated as certain fans expected him to be WWE champion is a perfect example of the strawman fallacy. What exactly is this "large percentage". It is particularly easy to argue back from such a strong claim - and would be akin to me saying a large percentage of wrestling fans thought pushing Ziggler to have a sustained run in the main event would usher in a new era of sports entertainment where ratings would increase back to levels seen during Monday Night Wars. This is patently not the case and it is easy to argue against it.

Obviously in the ring he was technically very good, but he lacked the charisma or in-ring presence that an absolute top guy has. He could wrestle a certain style(and do it very well) but for me he lacked variety. Take HBK, he can brawl, he can do technical wrestling, high flying, he can tell a great story. That's just one example of skills Regal lacked. He was a great wrestler, a great professional wrestler, but he was a not a good sports entertainer. For me as a hardcore fan of 20 years, i'm looking for the total package.

To cite HBK as a comparison as to why Regal's focus on Technical wrestling is a limitation is absurd. Shawn Michaels is a particularly rare case that few could be compared favourably to. My view on Regal is that he mastered a style that he was trained in - should he be criticised for that? Should we suggest that all sports entertainers are all rounders - that Mysterio is poor because he can't wrestle strong style, that Sheamus should really incorporate Lucha style moves in his repertoire? No, while familiarity with a broad range of styles is of course to be welcomed, Regal grew up in the older British tradition, which means he offered something unique to a US audience.

I would strongly disagree that Regal lacks in-ring presence or charisma. Regal is a consummate heel who never lacked for intensity in the ring. He genuinely has some of the best facial expressions of any wrestler I have ever seen, and he is a master of ring psychology. For all of this, what's not to like???

In addition to this, Regal has continued to win a lot of the IWC's respect for the things he is currently doing to ensure that the current and future generations of wrestling fans are well entertained. Without Regal's tutelage, Daniel Bryan very likely would not have had anywhere near as successful a career, not to mention the fact that our own Fergal Devitt (or Finn Bálor) can thank Regal for bringing him to Triple H's attention. His current role working in NXT gives him the opportunity to act as mentor to these potential stars - pass on his wisdom both from what he did right and wrong in his career.

For me, Regal (or anyone) for that matter never needed to win the WWE championship to earn the right to be considered an internet darling. This is frankly ludicrous - under this criteria Cesaro, Ambrose, any of the NXT 5 do not deserve this moniker, which is clearly not the case. No, anyone who can consistently demonstrate their love for the industry has earned my respect. If I ever met William Regal, I would definitely express my gratitude for everything he has done and continues to do for the business and for my entertainment.

Unfortunately I don't feel the same can be said for Dolph Ziggler. I would liken him to Conor McGregor in terms of his self-promotion, with a clear belief in his ability. Unfortunately, the results in ring just don't stack up to the same extent. When you talk yourself up to that extent, you need to deliver MOTY candidates each year to justify it and this is where Dolph has fallen short. He is like the anti-Daniel Bryan, with a lack of humility and an inability to connect to the audience in a way that means Vince and HHH have to take notice.

It's my view that the turn vs. ADR was as a result of Del Rio's vicious heelishness which emerged during the night. I weight the success of the double turn much more towards ADR as he inhabits the role of a heel to such a strong degree.

Ziggler is no doubt capable on the mic, but he has a tendency to throw away his lines by speaking them too fast and not letting his lines have a weight of impact.

When Ziggler is performing for row Z, this translates to an experience which is too over the top for those who are closer to the action and watching on TV, detracting from the overall experience. Despite his experience at the top of the card, working with so many of the biggest names, he himself has not developed to the point where he is above working with Fandango. This is a real indicator that he constantly fails to impress in terms of being a top guy.

Bottom line: I am not arguing that William Regal should have been WWE champion, just that he was and remains an extremely valuable asset to the wrestling industry and in fully deserving of our respect (regardless of whether the casual fan would remember him, the IWC should know better!)

I am however saying that Dolph does not have the necessary skills to progress beyond where he is now - a secondary champion (World during the Bramd Split or 2 World Champions era and IC/US champion now). There is nothing wrong with being positioned in the upper midcard (indeed Ziggler's friend Zack Ryder would love it!) but those who think he could reach the level of No.1 or even No.2 guy in the WWE is deluding themselves.

beakerjoe

Poll added

beakerjoe

Poll bump, poll closes tomorrow morning folks

beakerjoe

An absolute belter. So close with that one, great debate guys