Gerry Farnan race gone...

pconn062 · 30-09-2014 12:27pm #1

...to be replaced with the "Autumn Open Cross Country Event"

Link here

Interesting, seems to be pretty much the same event but with an open 5k for non-AAI members, to presumably try and encourage some of the road racers to try out a bit of XC.

Anyone any idea why it was changed?

RacoonQueen · 30-09-2014 12:57pm

Did AAI take it over from MSB? MSB always promoted it, took entries etc I thought?

youngrun · 30-09-2014 1:23pm

Looks like it. Am I right in thinking its two races, both open to men and women? 5k /8k

RacoonQueen · 30-09-2014 1:31pm

youngrun wrote: »

Looks like it. Am I right in thinking its two races, both open to men and women? 5k /8k

Traditionally, men and women raced separately. Looks like there are two mixed races there though...that is actually a bit confusing now I've read it again..

Hard Worker · 30-09-2014 3:00pm

There's no mention at all of Gerry Farnan in the title. Does this mean that there is now no race in his memory. Seems very surprising.

Sacksian · 30-09-2014 3:07pm

I can understand that AI want to promote xc to non-club members (that's definitely a good thing), but why do they have to drop the association with Gerry Farnan? I think last year was the 30th - shame not to continue a traditional race like that.

A mixed open race over 5 laps, combining masters trials and some of the best runners in the country, sounds like a recipe for disaster though. Or is only the 5k open?

RayCun · 30-09-2014 3:23pm

seems to be an open 5k and an open 8k

Sacksian · 30-09-2014 3:37pm

Does that not mean that you'll have runners, joggers and walkers together with some people lapped once, some lapped twice around a tight cross country course?

The beauty of it was that it was such a high quality race but if the 8k race has walkers in it - the prospect of John Coghlan or whoever else trying to navigate them (multiple times) going at full pelt through the dips on the munich hills doesn't seem that sensible!

I do like the idea of a mass-participation 5k xc though - ideally though, just two laps would probably work best.

Burgman · 30-09-2014 5:34pm

Gerry Farnan was a nice man and a great coach. He deserves to be commemorated in an annual race. Note the spelling - it is not "Farnham".

Regarding open cross-country - it already exists. The BHAA does it very successfully.

pconn062 · 30-09-2014 7:16pm

Burgman wrote: »

Gerry Farnan was a nice man and a great coach. He deserves to be commemorated in an annual race. Note the spelling - it is not "Farnham".

Regarding open cross-country - it already exists. The BHAA does it very successfully.

Corrected.

Some Kind of Wizard · 30-09-2014 8:45pm

Would be fantastic to see cross country take off again in the same way road racing has......I think it's stuck in an unfortunate mid ground between road racing and mud runs. The masses want either their times for a distance or a crazy challenge. XC offers niether. Think this attempt at an open race will fail and will also lessen interest in the event at the faster end.

RacoonQueen · 30-09-2014 8:49pm

I heard last year that MSB had 'lost' Gerry Farnan which I assumed meant the OPW would not release the Park for them. Maybe it had something to do with AI though? Strange they'd want to take it over.

pconn062 · 30-09-2014 8:54pm

Sacksian wrote: »

Does that not mean that you'll have runners, joggers and walkers together with some people lapped once, some lapped twice around a tight cross country course?

The beauty of it was that it was such a high quality race but if the 8k race has walkers in it - the prospect of John Coghlan or whoever else trying to navigate them (multiple times) going at full pelt through the dips on the munich hills doesn't seem that sensible!

I do like the idea of a mass-participation 5k xc though - ideally though, just two laps would probably work best.

Without meaning to sound negative, I can't see that being an issue. There are several open cross country races in the country (my own club organises one) and having big numbers is never an issue. Cross country still has a stigma that it's for fast runners, I hope this can help change it but I don't think overcrowding with fun runners will be an issue.

Sacksian · 30-09-2014 9:36pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Without meaning to sound negative, I can't see that being an issue. There are several open cross country races in the country (my own club organises one) and having big numbers is never an issue. Cross country still has a stigma that it's for fast runners, I hope this can help change it but I don't think overcrowding with fun runners will be an issue.

Personally, I'd love to see a mass participation xc race (I actually ran in one last weekend!). I just don't think this particular race or course is ideal for it. It's a high profile race with selection for international teams at stake and with multiple laps and some tight sections.

The race I did had about 250 registered runners (the vast majority of whom were not club/AI members) and another 300 odd kids/fun runners/walkers, so about 600 in total. But it was a one-lap course, which was ideal. I'd imagine that's the type of race that AI have in mind.

I don't know what the number of people there are in your club's race or how many non AI athletes there were in it but squeezing even 300 people on the GF course would get quite cramped, I would have thought.

To be honest, we're probably jumping to conclusions here about it being a mixed race and I'm sure the actual format will be clarified. Maybe they'll change the lap too.

I just think the GF is a classic race that'll be missed from the race calendar if it's too heavily compromised.

Re: the BHAA - their Garda XC lap is a bit longer than the GF lap which would allow the race to spread out more - not sure how many people are usually in that race.

Running Fool · 01-10-2014 8:26am

Here's a completely thick question - my only XC experience is seeing a small bit of it in school.
Whats the advantage of it over normal road racing, or maybe to rephrase that, why would some runners favour XC running?

Something I'd love to look into but I am 100% clueless to it and so are most people I know. It also seems like a mainly club thing - do many people run it individually? Its mostly based over winter/spring? By my Q's I'm sure you can see I'm clueless.

Thanks

dna_leri · 01-10-2014 8:29am

I'm confused.
Am I right in thinking that the GF XC race was one of the better attended and more successful events in the country?
So a decision is made to scrap it / completely change it's format.

Meanwhile "a root and branch examination of the Cross Country at all levels" has its closing date for input next week. So the decision was made without this input.

This "open cross country" event is going to incorporate the Master Cross Country Trials for the only real international masters' event but of course this is completely separate from the national master XC champs.

Joined up thinking... now that would be innovative.

RayCun · 01-10-2014 8:54am

Running Fool wrote: »

Here's a completely thick question - my only XC experience is seeing a small bit of it in school.
Whats the advantage of it over normal road racing, or maybe to rephrase that, why would some runners favour XC running?

Something I'd love to look into but I am 100% clueless to it and so are most people I know. It also seems like a mainly club thing - do many people run it individually? Its mostly based over winter/spring? By my Q's I'm sure you can see I'm clueless.

Competition, I guess. XC is mainly a club thing, and (most of) the races are championship races. There is no ****ing around in XC - the fields will be small but tough, and you'll know you've been in a race. Compared with most road races where any half-decent club runner is going to finish in the top 5-10%, and will quite possibly be racing the clock

dna_leri wrote: »

I'm confused.
Am I right in thinking that the GF XC race was one of the better attended and more successful events in the country?
So a decision is made to scrap it / completely change it's format.

Who made the decision? Wasn't the Gerry Farnan an MSB race?

Sacksian · 01-10-2014 9:04am

RayCun wrote: »

Competition, I guess. XC is mainly a club thing, and (most of) the races are championship races. There is no ****ing around in XC - the fields will be small but tough, and you'll know you've been in a race. Compared with most road races where any half-decent club runner is going to finish in the top 5-10%, and will quite possibly be racing the clock

As Burgman said earlier, the BHAA do put on xc races which cater to non-club runners and a greater spread of abilities - which is definitely worth doing if you're interested in just trying them out.

Some people prefer cross-country races or are just relatively better at it - you won't find out until you try it!

youngrun · 01-10-2014 9:08am

XC usually October to early March, Usually fields are club runners, bar BHAA, very competitive races and fields. Some lads may be more suited to the terrain and varied pacing , strength, endurance , etc needed in XC than the road. Miles in the bank always helps, look at Pollock last year in Nationals, wiped the floor with shorter distance athletes. Plenty of the track lads do very well in the likes of the novice though, generally the best lads always win out no matter the surface!

pconn062 · 01-10-2014 11:04am

Sacksian wrote: »

Personally, I'd love to see a mass participation xc race (I actually ran in one last weekend!). I just don't think this particular race or course is ideal for it. It's a high profile race with selection for international teams at stake and with multiple laps and some tight sections.

The race I did had about 250 registered runners (the vast majority of whom were not club/AI members) and another 300 odd kids/fun runners/walkers, so about 600 in total. But it was a one-lap course, which was ideal. I'd imagine that's the type of race that AI have in mind.

I don't know what the number of people there are in your club's race or how many non AI athletes there were in it but squeezing even 300 people on the GF course would get quite cramped, I would have thought.

To be honest, we're probably jumping to conclusions here about it being a mixed race and I'm sure the actual format will be clarified. Maybe they'll change the lap too.

I just think the GF is a classic race that'll be missed from the race calendar if it's too heavily compromised.

Re: the BHAA - their Garda XC lap is a bit longer than the GF lap which would allow the race to spread out more - not sure how many people are usually in that race.

I would also love to see some open large participation events, I'm a big fan of the BHAA races. Can I ask what race that was you did that had close to 600 runners in it? That's huge even compared to an BHAA race!

plodder · 01-10-2014 11:16am

Sacksian wrote: »

As Burgman said earlier, the BHAA do put on xc races which cater to non-club runners and a greater spread of abilities - which is definitely worth doing if you're interested in just trying them out.

Some people prefer cross-country races or are just relatively better at it - you won't find out until you try it!

+1.

XC is the backbone of the BHAA in my opinion and what sets them apart. Will probably be much the same crowd doing this I think - i.e. the additional people who wouldn't have done it before.

Sacksian · 01-10-2014 1:12pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I would also love to see some open large participation events, I'm a big fan of the BHAA races. Can I ask what race that was you did that had close to 600 runners in it? That's huge even compared to an BHAA race!

It was the Liz McDonnell run in Castletown estate in Celbridge. I've since seen an estimate of closer to 700 participating in it this year, made up of about 250 registered runners, including masters, seniors and juniors and then another 450 fun runners, walkers, and kids, etc. First time doing it but it was a very cool race!!

ecoli · 01-10-2014 4:08pm

Sacksian wrote: »

It was the Liz McDonnell run in Castletown estate in Celbridge. I've since seen an estimate of closer to 700 participating in it this year, made up of about 250 registered runners, including masters, seniors and juniors and then another 450 fun runners, walkers, and kids, etc. First time doing it but it was a very cool race!!

+1 did it two years back and really liked the mass participation element of it and great numbers considering the low level of advertising of the event, definitely shows there is an interest for XC among the general public

Ms collie · 01-10-2014 4:40pm

The change is very confusing. First of all, I don't think funrunners are going to be attracted by cross country, even in BHAA CC races, most people who do them are associated with running clubs anyway. For Anyone going for the British and Irish masters trial, especially ladies, does every master lady just go for the 5k? If you are a female master and aren't going for the trial, do you then do the 8k? I'm not sure about mixing male and female either, I have seen people lapped in the Gerry farnan and that happens because the race always has a unique mix of abilities but mixing the sexes would take it to a new level! I know we all compete together on the road but there are no laps in road races.

AAI needs to give more information

clear thinking · 01-10-2014 9:12pm

A pity to do away with a traditional race. Between bhaa and the ai affiliated races there's an xc almost every weekend so the real issue is getting people to run them, promotion, rather than the courses. Short of ribbons marking a course out, tarting up muddy paths to be attractive to Joseph/ine Public is a hard sell. Presumably at the end of the 'review' there'll still be an xc in the Dublin area most weekends. So what will improve it? Trying to monetise in for fun runners? Will more races have the plug pulled like msbs Gerry Farnan?

PVincent · 01-10-2014 9:30pm

The ideal location for a couple of Mass cross country races is the likes of the racecourses at Leopardstown , or the Curragh . Plenty of parking, space , showers, refreshments area, access is easy . Just need to talk nicely to the racecourse owners who I would imagine would be delighted to get customers in to the bar maybe. A bit of imagination and taking a chance on it could lead to a very enjoyable event

clear thinking · 01-10-2014 9:50pm

Good point, there was a 'barefoot mile' organised by ai in leopards town, about 30 ran i think. On a race night!

RayCun · 02-10-2014 8:05am

clear thinking wrote: »

Presumably at the end of the 'review' there'll still be an xc in the Dublin area most weekends.

The AAI review is just about races run by AAI and the county boards, BHAA and club-run races are not part of the remit

clear thinking · 02-10-2014 8:13am

I understand that, so AI's options are to continue scheduling events in the alternate weeks to bhaa and maybe promote them a bit more and maybe be a bit more flexible on novice/inter/senior grades. But if I was the BHAA I'd be wondering what the outcome will be given that AI can pull the plug on Gerry Farnan and the same governing body launched a commercial half marathon competing with the race series. AI might see the XC as a money grabbing event and go head to head with bhaa for example.

RacoonQueen · 02-10-2014 8:16am

They need to look at something more like the women's meet and train league to get people more interested in XC IMO.

Even for club runners, a league format would be much more successful than how XC is currently run I reckon.

RayCun · 02-10-2014 8:37am

clear thinking wrote: »

But if I was the BHAA I'd be wondering what the outcome will be given that AI can pull the plug on Gerry Farnan

Did they? I've heard a lot of speculation but nothing definite from AAI or MSB. (Not that I'm expecting a statement on boards!)

clear thinking wrote: »

AI might see the XC as a money grabbing event and go head to head with bhaa for example.

Lolz

RayCun · 02-10-2014 8:43am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

They need to look at something more like the women's meet and train league to get people more interested in XC IMO.

Even for club runners, a league format would be much more successful than how XC is currently run I reckon.

Yeah, could be good. The Dublin juvenile XC has a four race league followed by championships, something similar for adults could work. But

if its men and women, what happens to the womens meet and train?
you need clubs to run the races
there are already BHAA XC races through the winter. Why should DAB put resources into running something that BHAA already does?

Maybe do something alongside the BHAA system? Could be messy. (and I think some in BHAA are happy to be outside the AAI/club system?)

RacoonQueen · 02-10-2014 9:04am

The Meet and Train is aimed towards the 'slower' end of runners though...that could remain as an introduction to it...or just as it's own separate XC league. Largely the same athletes run every year, until they get too fast for it! And it is independent of clubs, as in it's not run by AI or DAB.
. XC

youngrun · 14-10-2014 1:31pm

Anyone know where numbers can be picked up Sunday will there be an AI desk at the race start area in the Park?....! I know late entries at Donore but pre entries???

pconn062 · 19-10-2014 8:18pm

All the main results from this can be seen here from Lindie:

http://lindienaughton.com/surprise-win-for-oneill-in-the-park/

Anybody run, how was it?

pa4 · 19-10-2014 8:29pm

Some race by Kevin Maunsell of Clonmel for 2nd, bet they didn't see that one coming

Good to see O Neill running well too. Anybody know if he's based back in Ireland now or still stateside?

youngrun · 20-10-2014 7:47am

Yes great race, bigger numbers than last year plus some top women in the 8k. Some surprise packets int he top 10, also Liam Brady had a very good run as did Fionnuala and Con Doherty in jnrs. Think O neill is back in ireland now . Piece in the Examiner today on race, cant post links
Ran it myself -thats an overstatement ! had a very bad day compared to last year, 40 places lower than usual lads i compete with, lack of fitness and miles only excuse. The course seemed a bit tougher as well using a full 2km lap, some of the little hills would stop you in your tracks. Great race though .

Timmaay · 20-10-2014 9:04am

Yeh brendan back full time now. Still haven't shook off this chest infection but I pottered around for 3laps to annoy myself! The rain in the 2nd lap was horrible ha. I wouldn't call it a hilly course at all, the tricky parts were the off camber and bumpy sections. If yas think that's hilly actually, wait for the leinsters in avondale next Sunday ha!

clear thinking · 20-10-2014 9:37am

I did the 8k, tough course going over those ups n downs 4 times. The only nice bit was the wind at your back on the return leg Km allowed a little bit of recovery from the outward Km. Nicely organised and lots of support along the course which was great.

Sacksian · 20-10-2014 10:08am

Timmaay wrote: »

Yeh brendan back full time now. Still haven't shook off this chest infection but I pottered around for 3laps to annoy myself! The rain in the 2nd lap was horrible ha. I wouldn't call it a hilly course at all, the tricky parts were the off camber and bumpy sections. If yas think that's hilly actually, wait for the leinsters in avondale next Sunday ha!

If someone really doesn't like hills, what's the best strategy for tackling the ones in Avondale?? I thought there was only one (very) big one?

RacoonQueen · 20-10-2014 10:22am

Sacksian wrote: »

If someone really doesn't like hills, what's the best strategy for tackling the ones in Avondale?? I thought there was only one (very) big one?

There is, probably another very slight one but other than that it's actually fairly flat (but very muddy)

clear thinking · 20-10-2014 11:33am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

There is, probably another very slight one but other than that it's actually fairly flat (but very muddy)

Don't sprint up the hill would be my tip.

Timmaay · 20-10-2014 12:04pm

clear thinking wrote: »

Don't sprint up the hill would be my tip.

Agreed, keep the effort consistent, so that means slowing down on a long hill like that! If your competitor sprints up it, he might pull a gap but he will be suffering badly!

youngrun · 20-10-2014 12:06pm

Not that it really matters, times were slowish yesterday , wonder was the course a good bit longer than the 8k

RayCun · 20-10-2014 12:25pm

how did it go overall? did the organisation work out? the different race structure?

youngrun · 20-10-2014 1:11pm

Think it went well, have ran the race before , course was different from last year and tougher , some spots at back end of course rough long grass etc. Good to see the elite women running in the 8k, think both races were of a decent standard. Not too many takers for the open element of it though- usual top end seniors and juniors and masters across the ages.

clear thinking · 20-10-2014 1:41pm

youngrun wrote: »

Think it went well, have ran the race before , course was different from last year and tougher , some spots at back end of course rough long grass etc. Good to see the elite women running in the 8k, think both races were of a decent standard. Not too many takers for the open element of it though- usual top end seniors and juniors and masters across the ages.

Yeah good point, I too would guess more open-element participants went for the 5k, no-brainer really!

Gerry Farnan race gone...

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