Is there simple cheap easy solution to stop stretched petrol from wrecking your car

derry

Is there simple cheap easy solution to stop stretched petrol from wrecking your car ???

Information below is only for educational discussion and experimenters do so at their own risks

So I thought about the problem and decided to start the thread where people can propose their idea and possible solution up to including suing the ROI government in a class action for allowing the contaminated fuel into the system

However I prefer looking potentially simple solutions that I as joe soap non mechanic can do quickly to protect my petrol car

I have to take my Diesel car out of service to repair it and that could take a few months as a home brew mechanic I take my time probably knowing me one year

My petrol car is low mileage 50,000 kilometer car hasn't been used in 2 years so probably avoided the worst of the ROI bad fuel problem .

Ethanol solution ideas

E85 fuels have higher octanes and if its there looks to be potentially cheap and easy solutions for those who know the voodoo of mixing ROI petrol fuels with E85
(I drove my aspirated engine Suziki Swift 1l car for 30,000 k with mixxes of this from ~100% E85 to typically ~30% of E85 and ~70% ROI E5 petrol fuels mixes in order to keep fuel costs down and also keep service charges less with cleaner burn fuel and less oil changes. It also gave more poky engine responses. Its easy for some cars but complex for others especially new models with computer controls )

In the past ROI sold E85 fuel and maybe those on the border regions can get this fuel in NI

My solution to bad ROI fuel would for ME (others who copy me do at their own risk ) to add about ~5% E85 fuel to the ROI fuel as that would bring the octane up and reduce any risk of the stretched fuel from causing damage to the engine with Ping Pre detonation . (Full technical details below )

However for many in ROI who live in back of beyonds the access to E85 fuel is near non existent to my knowledge .

E85 might still be available in some large cities in ROI but i dought it .
If it is it costs at least ~10% more than normal petrol E5 fuels where in the past it was 30% less than E5 fuels as it got special low tax rates .Now there is no low tax rate so why would anybody pay more for this E85 fuel so they stopped selling it

E85 fuel is ~85% ethanol and ~15% petrol and has higher octane than normal petrol .(in reality it is often ~70% ethanol and ~30% petrol )

So for me also with no easy access to E85 simply purchasing some few liters of Ethanol from some chemical suppliers and adding the stuff a few % to each ROI Petrol E5 fill should raise the octane enough to ensure my car has less risk to be impacted from stretched petrol fuels

There are some ethanol fuel sales outlets in Northern Ireland in Newry that sell ~1 liter and ~2 liter and ~5 liter up to ~1000 liter ethanol containers for home heating system solutions
Prices vary from ~€50 a liter with post down to ~€2 a liter when you buy 1000 liters lots
the postage costs are high as ethanol is explosive fuel like petrol so is HAZMAT for transport so costs more to post it to ROI so best to go collect it direct .

(Health note for the alkies and nut jobs you cant drink the ethanol the fuel suppliers supply for heating several special reasons . First the ethanol for fuel will have some extremely poisonous and toxic methanol in it not removed while they produce the ethanol as it isn't made for human consumption . Also ethanol fuel will soak up water from the air so they add 1% extremely toxic to humans toluene that forms a oil slick on top to stop water retention.Drink ethanol fuels made for heating and die extremely painful deaths or be blinded or crippled for life if you dont die )


If I was low mileage user or was running up to the border often the Ethanol solution would be quick easy solution for me

However I tend to never go to across the border and tend to do high mileage so I will probably opt for much more expensive but simpler solutions .


LPG and additive solution ideas

For many the simple solution is to change to LPG . The car engines will run on petrol to start up and heat up and the risk from stretched fuel doing damage when engine ticks over while it heats up is less.

There also might be some products int he local car shop that you can add to petrol fuel that will increase octane .
If the amount of petrol fuel you buy is minimal just enough to start up car and heat engine even if the add octane stuff from car shops costs a lot it only for few gallons of petrol a month .
You get the advantage to save money with LPG fuel costs at often less than ~€1 a liter .You do lose storage space in car and often spare wheel for me not a solution I love my spare wheel and need all the space for my stuff often have gobs of stuff in car .


High octane Additive solutions

Another way to increase the Octane in the fuel that enters the engine is to find some other fuel or fuel additive to the ROI patrol station fuel .
If your a rare user of car with very low Miles per year this might work for you even though fuel costs with additives will be high .

One fuel that can possibly work for many cars is car racing fuels .
These are often fuels with high levels of toluene in them .
The toluene fuels are made for high compression engines used in racing cars and have higher octane . Adding some of this racing fuel to each petrol fill up can help help raise the octane of the ROI Petrol E5 fuel

HHO possible higher octane solutions

Another way to raise Octane in fuel is to add some HHO gas to the fuels .

The HHO debate roars on the motor forums so I wont go there can it save fuel or not is seperate forum debate in itself .

Many versions of the HHO solutions put so much energy in to crack the Hydrogen from water that the saving made from cleaner burn petrol fuels is probably lost and there is unlikely to be any gain in MPG from many HHO versions . Low energy HHO solutions might work in returning extra MPG so info for that subject in technical solutions below .

All HHO solutions will raise the octane of the fuel to some extent .this is because HHO has a high octane of ~130 compared ROI E5 Petrols with ~90 octane .

Even though most HHO solution will add microspic amounts of HHO to the fuel mix often as low as 1/25,000 part to each fuel mix explosion per cylinder they often will raise the octane of the fuel mix enough to stop cars from pinging Pre detonation

Kits vary wildly in costs complexity and there are many home made versions on the net made using steel wool wrapped in socks stuffed in jam jars

There is the practical solution to fire risk problems that many kits do supply flash back solutions .this is so that if the HHO explodes outside the engine it wont cause damage to engine .
Home brew HHO versions can lack good or any flash back solutions and risk to wreck engines .

There is the complex issue of changing car and the need to remove the HHO solutions for the NCT . this makes for me the versions that can easily change between cars more interesting and easy to remove for the NCT

The Insurance company issues for HHO installations such as 3rd party and comprehensive are separate debate that basically should be dealt in another thread .

I dont own or have any profit motive to suggest this product I simply looked researched the net and decided this looks in this time to be my solution to stretched fuel problems. my logic is This looks like it will raise the octane in ROI E5 fuel enough to prevent damage to my car engine if I install it

http://www.aquatune.com

It looks like this device will keep my car maintenance problems reduced with cleaner burn fuel and who knows might save me on MPG . The top range device will easy change between cars and remove easily for NCT It looks to have the necessary flash back safety solutions .Also it much smaller than many similar HHO solutions.It can function in winter with small additive solutions like alcohols additives . I dont like it wont change over to my diesel car but I calculate one years use will still pay me back so its still my most likely purchase .


Technical details supplied in HHO technical section below


These are some suggestion

Other might prefer legal redress solutions possibly calss action against the Oil companies or ROI provisional Irish Government of the Royal Oireactas of Leinster House . maybe even boycotts of buying new cars whatever might work is the logic Feel free to go with these solutions


I personally prefer technical solutions for me that way I can resist the SOBS that deliberate in my opinion ensure the entire ROI E5 fuel system is poisoned to wreck the ROI fleet of cars and make the ROI government more in tax with new cars and new engines .

Some might show possible solutions like add on extras that can turn our petrol cars into electric car ok show us

The thread is searching for solutions to Stretched Fuel damage mitigation for the masses who do all sorts of driving from infrequent to driving 24 hours a day such as taxi drivers in hot seating shift driving .

Also there is likely to be lots of fake solutions coming out from the woodwork as bandits get on that bandwagon and those solutions might do worse damage than stretched fuel .So here we can expose the bad products

Below technical info ( will be updated on new info )

E5 fuel is ~95% petrol and 5% ethanol . In reality it often anywhere from ~3 to ~7% ethanol
The ethanol will soak up water and will often evaporate from the fuel so if it is ~3% and put into forecourt tank with high water content it could drop to less than ~3%

Ethanol has a octane of about ~100 and when added to petrol fuel with octane of about ~85 this helps to make the Irish ROI fuel have octane of ~90

Without any stretched fuel inputs a low ethanol content can reduce the octane of the ROI fuel to levels that can damage engines . things like leaving fuel in tank for months years etc could create this .
For normal use it is less likley event to poison fuel

Adding some extra Ethanol fuel will increase octane again. The Modern engine will not like too much .The computers cant adapt to extra Octane when the fuel mix exceeds probably ~50% ethanol ~50% ( will vary a lot from car to car ).Older cars sometime will run at 70% speeds but are prone to cut out on E85 fuels .However often will preform well with 30% Ethanol mix added .


Irish ROI petrol fuel quality is conversational fuel. Some classic clubs from the Europe advised their members for many decades if touring ROI dont buy ROI fuel as it damaged their engines . Buy from Europe mainland and limit the tours to the tanks size

The marine business for over twenty years in ROI advised two stroke users to use double the recommended oil mix ratio as the quality of the Irish petrol fuel was such low quality. Adding extra oil increased the low lubrication qualities of Irish fuel which seemed to have a high kerosene content for many decades . The extra oil would also increase octane and reduce ping issues . This is all classic evidence of higher than normal paraffin kerosene content in the entire ROI E5 fuel supply for many decades

The older fleets of the Irish cars were often re-tuned for local fuels at point of sale. This was often simply detuning the engine to cope with crud Irish fuels .This is standard in the car world as fuel varies a lot world wide with third world petrol fuel with very high kerosene contents to mainland Europes very low levels of kerosene contents in the fuels. Engines were made to cope with all these very different fuels in world markets and so the local tuning sorted these issues out .

The arrival of the EU car market with set standards worked great for most of the rest of Europe and computer tuned car with little often no possibility to do any local reseting requirements arrived .

The logic was fuel supplies across Europe were the same so cars did not need local tuning EU car can arrive pump and go

However some regions of Europe with bad fuel supplies like ROI this didn't work so well and modern cars suffered the most with rash of problems from what was nick named stretched fuel ,
Some claim it was only local agents with stretched fuel that was the problem but reports from users with cars that always fueled from reputable main dealers suggests the problem is more global in the ROI E5 fuel supply .The jury is out on that But i dont have my doughts Irish E5 fuel is in the dock for making crud fuel for the entire fuel system is where I personally see it .


For technical reasons when petrol fuel is made some ~50% is paraffins. The higher the parfifin contents the cheaper is the fuel to make .The higher the petrols content the more expensive is the fuel to make .The incentive in Ireland where there is only one refinery to keep the paraffin content of the fuel higher than the rest of Europe is higher . There is sod all competition so its take it or leave it market


Follow the money DUMMY
Can ROI 26 county provisional Irish government (derivative of the 1926 King George the 5th Royal Oireactas referred to correctly as Ireland Inc a for profit corporation subsidiary corporation of the UK crown which must send it profits to the Parent corporation the UK crown ) ensure the quality of Irish fuel supplies of E5 is perfect Quality petrol fuel,

Yes they can !!!

Will they ??

NO they wont !!

WHY ??

Because the ROI 26 county provisional Irish government make a fortune the more Irish cars that get wrecked with bad ROI fuel so why would they stop a nice little earner like that DUMMY

Look the VAT and car registration and the rest one wrecked Irish car make the Irish government at least €5000 euros for what a few liters of stretched fuel. Its a License to print money and take it from you .


Irish car owners spend more of their income on cars than even their houses and often more than their wives and family .The gombeens in the Leinster house dont care if your gonna pay more the more you pay the more money they make and the more profits for Ireland Inc and the more profits for the boss the UK crown



Fuel Octane
As you compress petrol fuels it will risk to explode without ignition source from spark plug at some compression ratio typically in modern cars ~10:1 ratio. This is called pre detonation and risks to heat up the top of the piston melt it if its severe enough and many other nasty problems too numerous to mention here .
Modern engines compression ratio is often ~8:1 to be below the threshold of the pre detonation danger zone of 10:1. for modern petrol fuels .
This is balance is achieved ensuring quality of petrol fuel does not vary too much .Ingredients are added to help keep the octane higher. High octane sorta really means slow down the rate of explosion in the fuel .The petrol fuel mix is a mix of high octane components and low octane components .the low octane components will risk to explode sooner than desired and to prevent this the additives in the fuel will surround the fuel mix with slow burn reluctant to burn and reluctant to explode fuel components .The more High octane components in the petrol fuel the higher the compression of the engine can be and the higher the BHP can be .The flip side is the slow burning high octane components are often so slow burning they get ejected from engine still burning so loss of power and the need to have CAT to catch these components and burn them up
high octane components are things like toluene and ethanol both very high typically 100 octane fuels .Low octane fuels are typically paraffins and kerosenes. (Kerosene is really 1 part petrol and 7 parts Paraffin)

normal modern petrol fuel will have typically some
~50% paraffin contents
~10% toluene
( Toluene can be any amount often as high as ~40% and can be as high as 100% like Australia where no tax on toluene oil companies did that . The Higher Toluene content fuels return worse MPG and car smells like paint thinners )
~5% ethanol
less than ~1% extremely toxic benzine
and the rest is a wide range of petrols like aromatics and naphtas like Colemans fuel(white parrifin )

Fuel component ratios can vary wildly from batch to batch but as long as octanes are kept to similar standards the Petrol cars can cope with these wild swings .

If your car is made to run on ~90 octane fuel and you buy ~100 octane fuel there is often no major problem for the engine .You risk to get less MPG and some extra hard work for the cat to burn up unburnt fuels .

However if you bought 80 octane fuel if the car would run at all it would be noisy as hell backfire a have no power and would in no time melt pistons or wreck the engine from the pre detonation events making half the engine fight the other half the engine

If some unscrupulous agent such as state run monopoly oil refinery or some local smart a$$ garages to save money and make more profits in the fuel supply line altered the components of the fuel to decrease Octane of fuel the cars that are sensitive to bad fuels will be the first to be wrecked

The most likely cars to be sensitive to low octane petrol fuel will be small engine cars and modern cars . The modern cars to scavenge extra MPG from the fuels have often altered the fuel mix ratio from ~15:1 to sometimes as high as ~25:1. This is highly complex solution and requires the fuel mix be of the highest quality which is often the case in modern countries in mainland Europe. the risks to go wrong increase in parts of the more poorer parts of EU and countries like Ireland where gombeens rule OK . The computers cant cope with the bad fuel and pre detonation fuel events occur more frequently and melt the pistons or worse wreck the car entirely. Small cars with small cylinders have greater risk the fuel will pre detonate due to scale issues with flame fronts and so forth .

This results in that country that has always had low quality fuel will probably have very large sector of engine users that wont notice or suffer too much from bad fuel with low octanes Thats becuase as their cars are older or have big engines and dont have complex computer controls . The little guys the bottom with small engine with problems like marine outboards or powerful small engine motor bikes or similar will notice this and be told s****e happens pay up and be blinded with science why they got unlucky with their engines

Enter stage left a massive increase in newer cars often small engine with high powers more sensitive to bad fuels with low octanes and suddenly there is large shift in that complaint user tree to becoming a massive minority and growing rapidly .

Now how do you cover up the problem Why you call the Ghost Busters in and start the balme game .

First you could look to the idea to encourage as many criminals as you can to add massive amounts of kerosene to the fuel from their fuel outlets .That way the whole problem is only those bunch of cowboys who did it all and reputable outlets are off the hook if the public swallow that one. You wine dine a bunch of gombeens from Leinster house show them some empty villas in Spain a begging for new gombeen owners and keep dropping paper money from holes in your pockets and well the gombeens can slow down the Garda from looking funny petrol fuels until the fuel supply is cleaned up except for the chosen cowboys out there.
After all stuffing sawdust in bread is oldest trick ever so adding as much paraffins to fuels helps the bottom line.
Anyway Spain has 20 million empty house many are Villa s so its cheap as chips to buy of the Gombeens .



HHO technical info
HHO is the name given to breaking water into two components .These components are Hydrogen and oxygen two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen .
This looks like like H2O with energy input ~= H2 + O then add fire or spark ignition to that and it recombines back to H2O

The problem is that to break water apart requires often much more input power than the fuel can give back

Typically with car HHO solutions it requires ~140 watts of power input to get one liter of HHO gas per minute .This one liter of HHO per minute will when it is burned return 4 watts of power per minute .Thats ~35 times more power input that power return ???
It is worse again in that many car will to supply with a alternator require more power than that again to give the ~140 watts power input. Alternators are often only ~5% efficient so it requires 40 watts X 20 times to get i liter of HHO or 35 times 20 power inputs to get this miserable 4 watts of power from the HHO . Some specail makes of alternator will be better will be 25% efficient as apposed to 5%

So how can HHO gas return better MPG
Tests done in the USA with NASA using the heat from exhaust of the car instead of alternator to crack methanol into HHO type mix returned a proven ~4% saving in MPG.

So properly done HHO can save MPG

Clearly something in HHO is helping return MPG
However using the alternator to make the HHO will probably wipe out the ~4% fuel saving

What is the process that takes place to make HHO work to save fuel .

The study I did shows that on motorway steady speed a typical old ~2.8 liter 6 Cylinder automatic Merc petrol car doing ~60MPH at ~3000 RPM will return 24MPG with normal Irish fuel . If we look the energy of the fuel that went in and the energy used by car we can see it is at best ~6% return on the fuel . It means ~94% the fuel was wasted as something else rolling friction air resistance brake drag transmission losses .
Each time the piston went up it took in a very small cc of fuel mixxed that with 466 cc of air and set fire to it .

The petrol fuel intake for that individual explosion will have a watts measure of something like 5 watts gross .
If we say that the fuel was ~20% efficient at source the 80% the fuel got thrown out the exhaust as wasted fuel .

If we can do something to get more of that ~80% wasted fuel to burn faster and burn better before it is ejected from the engine that will often return a better MPG figure .

The reason the petrol fuel waste is so high as 80% is the majority of the fuel has been made to burn slowly to increase octane to give higher compression to give more BHP at the price of a worse MPG .

Adding HHO mix in the fuel mix of the explosion there has two effects . The HHO Fuel is ready to explode at the drop of hat. When HHO does explode it has very rapid flame front and the majority the HHO will combine to make water . In the piston chamber will be fuels like paraffins that burn slowly and when the heat of the HHO explosion goes past at high speed it helps Parrifin fuel speed up and burn better .If this HHO is multiplier effect it means that small amounts of HHO can have huge multiplier effects.

If 1/25000 of the fuel mix was HHO it could result that the ~80% the fuel mix wastage could drop to ~60% fuel mix wastage and result in down stream 10% gain in MPG

However if the drag from the alternator to give this HHO mix is 10% of the power of the engine the MPG saving could be wiped out .

This results in possibly many HHO devices on the market returning little or no useful =saving in MPG and saving .


Derry
If a device can truly return 1 liter of HHO per minute for as little as ~8 watts input this would increase it chances to be superior to the HHO devises needing often 140 watts power input per liter per minute

One device from Aqua tune claims to do this www.aquatune.com . It might be sales hype I dont know. other might know more superior claims if so let us all know

However a side effect of all HHO input devices for this thread is they increase the octane of the fuel

HHO fuel mix has octane of ~130 that means it takes a very high compression level probably more than ~25:1 to risk it self igniting without a spark plug .Mixed into a low octane fuel the HHO will increase the octane of that fuel and delay any risk of pre detonation .

For me I would prefer to if I get a HHO device to get one that will have the best chance to return the best MPG
other might be happy simply if the HHO device protects their engines

Having seen my friends HHO device in his ~1800 diesel car return no improvement in MPG and cost him ~€500 I can tell you the HHO device market is full of mega wild claims . MY friend might make his money back on less oil changes cheaper services as the fuel burn will probably be cleaner but that could take 5 years at 100 saving per year . I will report back on it few years from now (just kidding )


Ethanol technical info (still in the pipe line to come )
Ethanol is a alcohol from the alcohol family .The alcohol family useful to joes six pack is typically methanol Ethanol Buthanol and isopropyl
Methanol expensive ~€10 a liter corrodes the hell of rubber and aluminum parts of car engines best avoided if you dont know what you do
Ethanol difficult to expensive get in ROI more easy to get in ROI Its probably only useful for low mileage users .
Buthanol works exactly like petrol throw in go but probably mad money and impossible to get in ROI
Isopropyl often found in after shave. Hard to find and probably expensive in ROI . For use in keeping water bottle from freezing probaly easier and cheaper in ROI to replace it with Ethanol.




So for me its start your engines save your ROI car engines from the gombeens and the gremlins and the fuel stretchers and the rest of the scum bags that try to wreck your biggest investment your car


derry

Frankie Lee

Any chance of a summary?

Toyotafanboi

the internet is full after that

i just buy fuel from big brand names. i'm willing to take my chances but i doubt they will be selling a product that will actively wreck my engine.

endacl

Scanned down to see the unavoidable paranoid political rant. Found it. Ignored the rest.

derry

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Any chance of a summary?

Emperour Cravat " Buyer beware"

Derry

sweetie

step 1: buy brand diesel
step 2: keep a receipt.

derry

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

the internet is full after that

i just buy fuel from big brand names. i'm willing to take my chances but i doubt they will be selling a product that will actively wreck my engine.

Yes have faith my child
.You dont know the garage owner
you dont know his suppliers
you dont know the games of stuffing sawdust in the bread mix
but well faith power works
HAVE FAITH
the gombeens love you and car
ignore the thousands of wrecked cars in ROI that a SEP sombody elses problem

Derry

endacl

derry wrote: »

Emperour Cravat " Buyer beware"

Derry

And that needed a Tolstoyesque epic to say?

Moneymaker

You have an impressively large amount of free time, every post is a transcribe of Crime and Punishment.

derry

sweetie wrote: »

step 1: buy brand diesel
step 2: keep a receipt.

Yes a great solution to kill the petrol cars is fill them DIEsel

Derry

derry

Moneymaker wrote: »

You have an impressively large amount of free time, every post is a transcribe of Crime and Punishment.

Yes the problem with these places they put me in with rubber walls is not much to do accept to worry about my cars not acceble to me in the parking lot
or is it
I like to pass on my knowledge gained from using building fixxing
engines from
boats
car
motorbikes
quads
over many years and traveling the;planet and been exposed to the rotten fuels in far of places like
Greece
Turkey
Africa
and Ireland

Derry

Voodoomelon

As I scrolled through the OP.

derry

So far the motor heads know nothing under the hood
know no real solutions

but need to shoot the gob off replies

possible real Solution replies wanted

here is clue whats in the local shops in products

Derry

endacl

derry wrote: »

So far the motor heads know nothing under the hood
know no real solutions

but need to shoot the gob off replies

possible real Solution replies wanted

Derry

Here's one.

I'll continue to buy fuel from reputable filling stations. One's that also do nice coffee. None o' yer Tim Horton's swill. I've been doing that for years. I've yet to have an engine wrecked by petrol.

We don't need a solution to a problem that exists only in your head.

MuppetCheck

derry wrote: »

Is there simple cheap easy solution to stop stretched petrol from wrecking your car ???

Information below is only for educational discussion and experimenters do so at their own risks

So I thought about the problem and decided to start the thread where people can propose their idea and possible solution up to including suing the ROI government in a class action for allowing the contaminated fuel into the system

However I prefer looking potentially simple solutions that I as joe soap non mechanic can do quickly to protect my petrol car

I have to take my Diesel car out of service to repair it and that could take a few months as a home brew mechanic I take my time probably knowing me one year

My petrol car is low mileage 50,000 kilometer car hasn't been used in 2 years so probably avoided the worst of the ROI bad fuel problem .

Ethanol solution ideas

E85 fuels have higher octanes and if its there looks to be potentially cheap and easy solutions for those who know the voodoo of mixing ROI petrol fuels with E85
(I drove my aspirated engine Suziki Swift 1l car for 30,000 k with mixxes of this from ~100% E85 to typically ~30% of E85 and ~70% ROI E5 petrol fuels mixes in order to keep fuel costs down and also keep service charges less with cleaner burn fuel and less oil changes. It also gave more poky engine responses. Its easy for some cars but complex for others especially new models with computer controls )

In the past ROI sold E85 fuel and maybe those on the border regions can get this fuel in NI

My solution to bad ROI fuel would for ME (others who copy me do at their own risk ) to add about ~5% E85 fuel to the ROI fuel as that would bring the octane up and reduce any risk of the stretched fuel from causing damage to the engine with Ping Pre detonation . (Full technical details below )

However for many in ROI who live in back of beyonds the access to E85 fuel is near non existent to my knowledge .

E85 might still be available in some large cities in ROI but i dought it .
If it is it costs at least ~10% more than normal petrol E5 fuels where in the past it was 30% less than E5 fuels as it got special low tax rates .Now there is no low tax rate so why would anybody pay more for this E85 fuel so they stopped selling it

E85 fuel is ~85% ethanol and ~15% petrol and has higher octane than normal petrol .(in reality it is often ~70% ethanol and ~30% petrol )

So for me also with no easy access to E85 simply purchasing some few liters of Ethanol from some chemical suppliers and adding the stuff a few % to each ROI Petrol E5 fill should raise the octane enough to ensure my car has less risk to be impacted from stretched petrol fuels

There are some ethanol fuel sales outlets in Northern Ireland in Newry that sell ~1 liter and ~2 liter and ~5 liter up to ~1000 liter ethanol containers for home heating system solutions
Prices vary from ~€50 a liter with post down to ~€2 a liter when you buy 1000 liters lots
the postage costs are high as ethanol is explosive fuel like petrol so is HAZMAT for transport so costs more to post it to ROI so best to go collect it direct .

(Health note for the alkies and nut jobs you cant drink the ethanol the fuel suppliers supply for heating several special reasons . First the ethanol for fuel will have some extremely poisonous and toxic methanol in it not removed while they produce the ethanol as it isn't made for human consumption . Also ethanol fuel will soak up water from the air so they add 1% extremely toxic to humans toluene that forms a oil slick on top to stop water retention.Drink ethanol fuels made for heating and die extremely painful deaths or be blinded or crippled for life if you dont die )


If I was low mileage user or was running up to the border often the Ethanol solution would be quick easy solution for me

However I tend to never go to across the border and tend to do high mileage so I will probably opt for much more expensive but simpler solutions .


LPG and additive solution ideas

For many the simple solution is to change to LPG . The car engines will run on petrol to start up and heat up and the risk from stretched fuel doing damage when engine ticks over while it heats up is less.

There also might be some products int he local car shop that you can add to petrol fuel that will increase octane .
If the amount of petrol fuel you buy is minimal just enough to start up car and heat engine even if the add octane stuff from car shops costs a lot it only for few gallons of petrol a month .
You get the advantage to save money with LPG fuel costs at often less than ~€1 a liter .You do lose storage space in car and often spare wheel for me not a solution I love my spare wheel and need all the space for my stuff often have gobs of stuff in car .


High octane Additive solutions

Another way to increase the Octane in the fuel that enters the engine is to find some other fuel or fuel additive to the ROI patrol station fuel .
If your a rare user of car with very low Miles per year this might work for you even though fuel costs with additives will be high .

One fuel that can possibly work for many cars is car racing fuels .
These are often fuels with high levels of toluene in them .
The toluene fuels are made for high compression engines used in racing cars and have higher octane . Adding some of this racing fuel to each petrol fill up can help help raise the octane of the ROI Petrol E5 fuel

HHO possible higher octane solutions

Another way to raise Octane in fuel is to add some HHO gas to the fuels .

The HHO debate roars on the motor forums so I wont go there can it save fuel or not is seperate forum debate in itself .

Many versions of the HHO solutions put so much energy in to crack the Hydrogen from water that the saving made from cleaner burn petrol fuels is probably lost and there is unlikely to be any gain in MPG from many HHO versions . Low energy HHO solutions might work in returning extra MPG so info for that subject in technical solutions below .

All HHO solutions will raise the octane of the fuel to some extent .this is because HHO has a high octane of ~130 compared ROI E5 Petrols with ~90 octane .

Even though most HHO solution will add microspic amounts of HHO to the fuel mix often as low as 1/25,000 part to each fuel mix explosion per cylinder they often will raise the octane of the fuel mix enough to stop cars from pinging Pre detonation

Kits vary wildly in costs complexity and there are many home made versions on the net made using steel wool wrapped in socks stuffed in jam jars

There is the practical solution to fire risk problems that many kits do supply flash back solutions .this is so that if the HHO explodes outside the engine it wont cause damage to engine .
Home brew HHO versions can lack good or any flash back solutions and risk to wreck engines .

There is the complex issue of changing car and the need to remove the HHO solutions for the NCT . this makes for me the versions that can easily change between cars more interesting and easy to remove for the NCT

The Insurance company issues for HHO installations such as 3rd party and comprehensive are separate debate that basically should be dealt in another thread .

I dont own or have any profit motive to suggest this product I simply looked researched the net and decided this looks in this time to be my solution to stretched fuel problems. my logic is This looks like it will raise the octane in ROI E5 fuel enough to prevent damage to my car engine if I install it

http://www.aquatune.com

It looks like this device will keep my car maintenance problems reduced with cleaner burn fuel and who knows might save me on MPG . The top range device will easy change between cars and remove easily for NCT It looks to have the necessary flash back safety solutions .Also it much smaller than many similar HHO solutions.It can function in winter with small additive solutions like alcohols additives . I dont like it wont change over to my diesel car but I calculate one years use will still pay me back so its still my most likely purchase .


Technical details supplied in HHO technical section below


These are some suggestion

Other might prefer legal redress solutions possibly calss action against the Oil companies or ROI provisional Irish Government of the Royal Oireactas of Leinster House . maybe even boycotts of buying new cars whatever might work is the logic Feel free to go with these solutions


I personally prefer technical solutions for me that way I can resist the SOBS that deliberate in my opinion ensure the entire ROI E5 fuel system is poisoned to wreck the ROI fleet of cars and make the ROI government more in tax with new cars and new engines .

Some might show possible solutions like add on extras that can turn our petrol cars into electric car ok show us

The thread is searching for solutions to Stretched Fuel damage mitigation for the masses who do all sorts of driving from infrequent to driving 24 hours a day such as taxi drivers in hot seating shift driving .

Also there is likely to be lots of fake solutions coming out from the woodwork as bandits get on that bandwagon and those solutions might do worse damage than stretched fuel .So here we can expose the bad products

Below technical info ( will be updated on new info )

E5 fuel is ~95% petrol and 5% ethanol . In reality it often anywhere from ~3 to ~7% ethanol
The ethanol will soak up water and will often evaporate from the fuel so if it is ~3% and put into forecourt tank with high water content it could drop to less than ~3%

Ethanol has a octane of about ~100 and when added to petrol fuel with octane of about ~85 this helps to make the Irish ROI fuel have octane of ~90

Without any stretched fuel inputs a low ethanol content can reduce the octane of the ROI fuel to levels that can damage engines . things like leaving fuel in tank for months years etc could create this .
For normal use it is less likley event to poison fuel

Adding some extra Ethanol fuel will increase octane again. The Modern engine will not like too much .The computers cant adapt to extra Octane when the fuel mix exceeds probably ~50% ethanol ~50% ( will vary a lot from car to car ).Older cars sometime will run at 70% speeds but are prone to cut out on E85 fuels .However often will preform well with 30% Ethanol mix added .


Irish ROI petrol fuel quality is conversational fuel. Some classic clubs from the Europe advised their members for many decades if touring ROI dont buy ROI fuel as it damaged their engines . Buy from Europe mainland and limit the tours to the tanks size

The marine business for over twenty years in ROI advised two stroke users to use double the recommended oil mix ratio as the quality of the Irish petrol fuel was such low quality. Adding extra oil increased the low lubrication qualities of Irish fuel which seemed to have a high kerosene content for many decades . The extra oil would also increase octane and reduce ping issues . This is all classic evidence of higher than normal paraffin kerosene content in the entire ROI E5 fuel supply for many decades

The older fleets of the Irish cars were often re-tuned for local fuels at point of sale. This was often simply detuning the engine to cope with crud Irish fuels .This is standard in the car world as fuel varies a lot world wide with third world petrol fuel with very high kerosene contents to mainland Europes very low levels of kerosene contents in the fuels. Engines were made to cope with all these very different fuels in world markets and so the local tuning sorted these issues out .

The arrival of the EU car market with set standards worked great for most of the rest of Europe and computer tuned car with little often no possibility to do any local reseting requirements arrived .

The logic was fuel supplies across Europe were the same so cars did not need local tuning EU car can arrive pump and go

However some regions of Europe with bad fuel supplies like ROI this didn't work so well and modern cars suffered the most with rash of problems from what was nick named stretched fuel ,
Some claim it was only local agents with stretched fuel that was the problem but reports from users with cars that always fueled from reputable main dealers suggests the problem is more global in the ROI E5 fuel supply .The jury is out on that But i dont have my doughts Irish E5 fuel is in the dock for making crud fuel for the entire fuel system is where I personally see it .


For technical reasons when petrol fuel is made some ~50% is paraffins. The higher the parfifin contents the cheaper is the fuel to make .The higher the petrols content the more expensive is the fuel to make .The incentive in Ireland where there is only one refinery to keep the paraffin content of the fuel higher than the rest of Europe is higher . There is sod all competition so its take it or leave it market


Follow the money DUMMY
Can ROI 26 county provisional Irish government (derivative of the 1926 King George the 5th Royal Oireactas referred to correctly as Ireland Inc a for profit corporation subsidiary corporation of the UK crown which must send it profits to the Parent corporation the UK crown ) ensure the quality of Irish fuel supplies of E5 is perfect Quality petrol fuel,

Yes they can !!!

Will they ??

NO they wont !!

WHY ??

Because the ROI 26 county provisional Irish government make a fortune the more Irish cars that get wrecked with bad ROI fuel so why would they stop a nice little earner like that DUMMY

Look the VAT and car registration and the rest one wrecked Irish car make the Irish government at least €5000 euros for what a few liters of stretched fuel. Its a License to print money and take it from you .


Irish car owners spend more of their income on cars than even their houses and often more than their wives and family .The gombeens in the Leinster house dont care if your gonna pay more the more you pay the more money they make and the more profits for Ireland Inc and the more profits for the boss the UK crown



Fuel Octane
As you compress petrol fuels it will risk to explode without ignition source from spark plug at some compression ratio typically in modern cars ~10:1 ratio. This is called pre detonation and risks to heat up the top of the piston melt it if its severe enough and many other nasty problems too numerous to mention here .
Modern engines compression ratio is often ~8:1 to be below the threshold of the pre detonation danger zone of 10:1. for modern petrol fuels .
This is balance is achieved ensuring quality of petrol fuel does not vary too much .Ingredients are added to help keep the octane higher. High octane sorta really means slow down the rate of explosion in the fuel .The petrol fuel mix is a mix of high octane components and low octane components .the low octane components will risk to explode sooner than desired and to prevent this the additives in the fuel will surround the fuel mix with slow burn reluctant to burn and reluctant to explode fuel components .The more High octane components in the petrol fuel the higher the compression of the engine can be and the higher the BHP can be .The flip side is the slow burning high octane components are often so slow burning they get ejected from engine still burning so loss of power and the need to have CAT to catch these components and burn them up
high octane components are things like toluene and ethanol both very high typically 100 octane fuels .Low octane fuels are typically paraffins and kerosenes. (Kerosene is really 1 part petrol and 7 parts Paraffin)

normal modern petrol fuel will have typically some
~50% paraffin contents
~10% toluene
( Toluene can be any amount often as high as ~40% and can be as high as 100% like Australia where no tax on toluene oil companies did that . The Higher Toluene content fuels return worse MPG and car smells like paint thinners )
~5% ethanol
less than ~1% extremely toxic benzine
and the rest is a wide range of petrols like aromatics and naphtas like Colemans fuel(white parrifin )

Fuel component ratios can vary wildly from batch to batch but as long as octanes are kept to similar standards the Petrol cars can cope with these wild swings .

If your car is made to run on ~90 octane fuel and you buy ~100 octane fuel there is often no major problem for the engine .You risk to get less MPG and some extra hard work for the cat to burn up unburnt fuels .

However if you bought 80 octane fuel if the car would run at all it would be noisy as hell backfire a have no power and would in no time melt pistons or wreck the engine from the pre detonation events making half the engine fight the other half the engine

If some unscrupulous agent such as state run monopoly oil refinery or some local smart a$$ garages to save money and make more profits in the fuel supply line altered the components of the fuel to decrease Octane of fuel the cars that are sensitive to bad fuels will be the first to be wrecked

The most likely cars to be sensitive to low octane petrol fuel will be small engine cars and modern cars . The modern cars to scavenge extra MPG from the fuels have often altered the fuel mix ratio from ~15:1 to sometimes as high as ~25:1. This is highly complex solution and requires the fuel mix be of the highest quality which is often the case in modern countries in mainland Europe. the risks to go wrong increase in parts of the more poorer parts of EU and countries like Ireland where gombeens rule OK . The computers cant cope with the bad fuel and pre detonation fuel events occur more frequently and melt the pistons or worse wreck the car entirely. Small cars with small cylinders have greater risk the fuel will pre detonate due to scale issues with flame fronts and so forth .

This results in that country that has always had low quality fuel will probably have very large sector of engine users that wont notice or suffer too much from bad fuel with low octanes Thats becuase as their cars are older or have big engines and dont have complex computer controls . The little guys the bottom with small engine with problems like marine outboards or powerful small engine motor bikes or similar will notice this and be told s****e happens pay up and be blinded with science why they got unlucky with their engines

Enter stage left a massive increase in newer cars often small engine with high powers more sensitive to bad fuels with low octanes and suddenly there is large shift in that complaint user tree to becoming a massive minority and growing rapidly .

Now how do you cover up the problem Why you call the Ghost Busters in and start the balme game .

First you could look to the idea to encourage as many criminals as you can to add massive amounts of kerosene to the fuel from their fuel outlets .That way the whole problem is only those bunch of cowboys who did it all and reputable outlets are off the hook if the public swallow that one. You wine dine a bunch of gombeens from Leinster house show them some empty villas in Spain a begging for new gombeen owners and keep dropping paper money from holes in your pockets and well the gombeens can slow down the Garda from looking funny petrol fuels until the fuel supply is cleaned up except for the chosen cowboys out there.
After all stuffing sawdust in bread is oldest trick ever so adding as much paraffins to fuels helps the bottom line.
Anyway Spain has 20 million empty house many are Villa s so its cheap as chips to buy of the Gombeens .



HHO technical info
HHO is the name given to breaking water into two components .These components are Hydrogen and oxygen two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen .
This looks like like H2O with energy input ~= H2 + O then add fire or spark ignition to that and it recombines back to H2O

The problem is that to break water apart requires often much more input power than the fuel can give back

Typically with car HHO solutions it requires ~140 watts of power input to get one liter of HHO gas per minute .This one liter of HHO per minute will when it is burned return 4 watts of power per minute .Thats ~35 times more power input that power return ???
It is worse again in that many car will to supply with a alternator require more power than that again to give the ~140 watts power input. Alternators are often only ~5% efficient so it requires 40 watts X 20 times to get i liter of HHO or 35 times 20 power inputs to get this miserable 4 watts of power from the HHO . Some specail makes of alternator will be better will be 25% efficient as apposed to 5%

So how can HHO gas return better MPG
Tests done in the USA with NASA using the heat from exhaust of the car instead of alternator to crack methanol into HHO type mix returned a proven ~4% saving in MPG.

So properly done HHO can save MPG

Clearly something in HHO is helping return MPG
However using the alternator to make the HHO will probably wipe out the ~4% fuel saving

What is the process that takes place to make HHO work to save fuel .

The study I did shows that on motorway steady speed a typical old ~2.8 liter 6 Cylinder automatic Merc petrol car doing ~60MPH at ~3000 RPM will return 24MPG with normal Irish fuel . If we look the energy of the fuel that went in and the energy used by car we can see it is at best ~6% return on the fuel . It means ~94% the fuel was wasted as something else rolling friction air resistance brake drag transmission losses .
Each time the piston went up it took in a very small cc of fuel mixxed that with 466 cc of air and set fire to it .

The petrol fuel intake for that individual explosion will have a watts measure of something like 5 watts gross .
If we say that the fuel was ~20% efficient at source the 80% the fuel got thrown out the exhaust as wasted fuel .

If we can do something to get more of that ~80% wasted fuel to burn faster and burn better before it is ejected from the engine that will often return a better MPG figure .

The reason the petrol fuel waste is so high as 80% is the majority of the fuel has been made to burn slowly to increase octane to give higher compression to give more BHP at the price of a worse MPG .

Adding HHO mix in the fuel mix of the explosion there has two effects . The HHO Fuel is ready to explode at the drop of hat. When HHO does explode it has very rapid flame front and the majority the HHO will combine to make water . In the piston chamber will be fuels like paraffins that burn slowly and when the heat of the HHO explosion goes past at high speed it helps Parrifin fuel speed up and burn better .If this HHO is multiplier effect it means that small amounts of HHO can have huge multiplier effects.

If 1/25000 of the fuel mix was HHO it could result that the ~80% the fuel mix wastage could drop to ~60% fuel mix wastage and result in down stream 10% gain in MPG

However if the drag from the alternator to give this HHO mix is 10% of the power of the engine the MPG saving could be wiped out .

This results in possibly many HHO devices on the market returning little or no useful =saving in MPG and saving .


Derry
If a device can truly return 1 liter of HHO per minute for as little as ~8 watts input this would increase it chances to be superior to the HHO devises needing often 140 watts power input per liter per minute

One device from Aqua tune claims to do this www.aquatune.com . It might be sales hype I dont know. other might know more superior claims if so let us all know

However a side effect of all HHO input devices for this thread is they increase the octane of the fuel

HHO fuel mix has octane of ~130 that means it takes a very high compression level probably more than ~25:1 to risk it self igniting without a spark plug .Mixed into a low octane fuel the HHO will increase the octane of that fuel and delay any risk of pre detonation .

For me I would prefer to if I get a HHO device to get one that will have the best chance to return the best MPG
other might be happy simply if the HHO device protects their engines

Having seen my friends HHO device in his ~1800 diesel car return no improvement in MPG and cost him ~€500 I can tell you the HHO device market is full of mega wild claims . MY friend might make his money back on less oil changes cheaper services as the fuel burn will probably be cleaner but that could take 5 years at 100 saving per year . I will report back on it few years from now (just kidding )


Ethanol technical info (still in the pipe line to come )
Ethanol is a alcohol from the alcohol family .The alcohol family useful to joes six pack is typically methanol Ethanol Buthanol and isopropyl
Methanol expensive ~€10 a liter corrodes the hell of rubber and aluminum parts of car engines best avoided if you dont know what you do
Ethanol difficult to expensive get in ROI more easy to get in ROI Its probably only useful for low mileage users .
Buthanol works exactly like petrol throw in go but probably mad money and impossible to get in ROI
Isopropyl often found in after shave. Hard to find and probably expensive in ROI . For use in keeping water bottle from freezing probaly easier and cheaper in ROI to replace it with Ethanol.




So for me its start your engines save your ROI car engines from the gombeens and the gremlins and the fuel stretchers and the rest of the scum bags that try to wreck your biggest investment your car


derry

I've nothing to add. I just felt the overwhelming need to quote this.

longhalloween

derry wrote: »

Emperour Cravat " Buyer beware"

Derry

Caveat Emptor?

Did you just say "emperor's necktie"?

dgt

MuppetCheck wrote: »

I've nothing to add. I just felt the overwhelming need to quote this.

You evil man :pac:

It's like a Sunday sport article on the ramblings of a homeless man at a bus shelter if I'm honest....

endacl

longhalloween wrote: »

Caveat Emptor?

Did you just say "emperor's necktie"?

Yes. We've all got our necks in the noose of big business/scary government. Or something. Something ranty.

dgt

endacl wrote: »

Yes. We've all got our necks in the noose of big business/scary government. Or something. Something ranty.

Kind of like dropping a tied tie to see which part of the tie lands first!!!

Result was it was a tie

jimgoose

Drop a' washing-up liquid, be grand bah. Oh wait, that's brake-fluid...

Fork it - I just buy all my fuel at the local Texaco and use a credit-card. Ol' J.R.'ll mind me, boy! :cool::cool:

endacl

dgt wrote: »

Kind of like dropping a tied tie to see which part of the tie lands first!!!

Result was it was a tie

Circular argument dude. You've been reading too many of these threads.

:pac:

derry

longhalloween wrote: »

Caveat Emptor?

Did you just say "emperor's necktie"?

no it translates the gombeens have you by the short and curlys

derry

endacl

derry wrote: »

no it translates the gombeens have you by the short and curlys

derry

Hold on. Who're the gombeens? Them or us?

not derry

dilallio

Class-action law cases are not catered for in Irish Law

jimgoose

derry wrote: »

no it translates the gombeens have you by the short and curlys

derry

Is there any truth to the rumour that Angela Merkel, well-known German bird and part-time Lizard Person, is also the "shadow" CEO of the Volkswagen-Audi Group, and she's forcing the Gummint to start confiscating all cars that fail the NCT for anything from next year on, and then forcing people to buy new diesel Jettas??

endacl

jimgoose wrote: »

Is there any truth to the rumour that Angela Merkel, well-known German bird and part-time Lizard Person, is also the "shadow" CEO of the Volkswagen-Audi Group, and next year the Gummint is going to start confiscating all cars that fail the NCT for anything, and then legally mandating peopl eto buy new diesel Jettas??

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: SSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Dummkopf. :rolleyes:

dgt

I see a conspiracy that with more of these tabloid article posts, motors is becoming a conspiracy forum.... :eek:

endacl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

There should be a Boards-wide Dunning-Kruger MegaThread, where all of these threads could be dumped.

jimgoose

endacl wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

There should be a Boards-wide Dunning-Kruger MegaThread, where all of these threads could be dumped.

So it's official - empty vessels make the most noise. :pac::pac::pac:

endacl

jimgoose wrote: »

So it's official - empty vessels make the most noise. :pac::pac::pac:

Yep. Only now its science!

Alanstrainor

derry, i suggest you try and be more concise in your posting. No one in their right mind is going to read all 4797 words in that post. :eek: