Heart rate

Amprodude

This isn't a medical question but I have often wondered myself why when I go flat out cycling hard or climbing big climbs my HR goes up to 186-192 bpm range. Once i rest up it immediately drops back down fast. In a race or a competitive sportive my HR could avg, 165bpm even when I'm fit and would be a lot lower if I wasn't putting in as much of an effort.

Is it a cause for concern or just normality?

allthedoyles

As one that has been through the stress test , everything is okay there ..............

Going back to normal quickly is the key .

mosstin

Amprodude wrote: »

This isn't a medical question but I have often wondered myself why when I go flat out cycling hard or climbing big climbs my HR goes up to 186-192 bpm range. Once i rest up it immediately drops back down fast. In a race or a competitive sportive my HR could avg, 165bpm even when I'm fit and would be a lot lower if I wasn't putting in as much of an effort.

Is it a cause for concern or just normality?

It differs from person to person but what you've just mentioned there sounds completely normal.

kumate_champ07

normal.

biketard

I'm about the same as you, OP. To clarify, that would be my absolute peak, rather than anything sustainable.

I'm aged 44, btw.

Alek

Max HR is very individual. I'm 33 and max HR ever recorded was 184.

In regard to OP, all normal. Also, the faster it drops when you resting, the better is your cardiovascular condition.

martyc5674

Interested in this too.
Ive noticed my HR is always higher than others.
Im 38... good fitness, did a good 3Hr spin the other day max 191 avg 173.
Id rather it was lower... I guess it means ive a higher lactate threshold aswell

Alek

Max HR on its own does not tell you anything. What matters is the way you go through your HR zones - i.e. you can tell you're overtraining if you're hitting zone 5 much faster that usual, or at effort you do normally in zone 3. Also, if your resting HR is elevated, or it drops slower after effort, its time to give it a rest for a while and recover

daragh_

My HR is much like the OP's.

I found yesterday's CX race interesting in that I was on or near my max*** for the whole thing. In a Road Race it would vary a lot more.

Of course the fact that I had time to look at my HR would suggest I was doing it wrong. :P

***edit - more like threshold and edging upwards

Alek

I found yesterday's CX race interesting in that I was on or near my max for the whole thing.

Tell me about it Mine was 175-179 for an hour, while my max is 184... Its like sprinting or hammering uphill for the whole time

Beasty

Alek wrote: »

Tell me about it Mine was 175-179 for an hour, while my max is 184... Its like sprinting or hammering uphill for the whole time

I suspect you've never hit your real max if you can sustain that for an hour. I suspect I'm in a similar position, with a max recorded HR of 186, but I think I averaged over 170 on a 25 mile TT a couple of years ago

gypsy79

For the OP, a VO2 test might give you comfort and they are affordable.

About the same price as a trip the doctor and you will learn loads from it

Alek

I suspect you've never hit your real max if you can sustain that for an hour.

You might be right I guess seeing black spots floating around is close to the max? Had it once or twice.

Beasty

Alek wrote: »

I guess seeing black spots floating around is close to the max? Had it once or twice.

I get them all the time ....:eek:

Alek

I get them all the time ...

Stop crashing!

slfcarro5

The max I ever hit was 201 bpm in a sprint finish at the end of a race a couple of months ago, while I have done a couple of hard races where I have averaged 186-188 bpm for an hour of racing. I'm 30 years old. I'd say im on the higher end of things though.

Inquitus

slfcarro5 wrote: »

The max I ever hit was 201 bpm in a sprint finish at the end of a race a couple of months ago, while I have done a couple of hard races where I have averaged 186-188 bpm for an hour of racing. I'm 30 years old. I'd say im on the higher end of things though.

I am 38, max ever seen was 199 in a sprint finish up at the Cycleways earlier this year, threshold is 182.

Granolite

I did some online reading on this topic and one thing that I am still uncertain of was to whether you use the maximum peak HR value (i.e that HR value you would occasionally peak at for a period of a few seconds at a time) when body is fresh to calculate your heart rate training zones or the sort of max level you would plateau at when say cycling over a number of consecutive days such as a competitive multi day stage race?

For example on the first day of a recent cycling trip I maxed my HR to 203 BPM on a mountain climb for a certain level of perceived effort. I really put the hammer down so to speak for a period of 2-3 minutes, then relented somewhat as I took fright at the HR figure I've quoted! I saw my heart rate taper back 198 , 197, 195 etc...until i felt more comfortable riding at a sustainable level where I would not "blow the lights'' .
On consecutive days climbing for the same level of perceived effort I could not raise my HR above the 182-184 BPM range. This was experienced over a week of climbing day in day out in the Pyrenees.

The above example had me ask myself the question was my true maximum HR closer to the latter values than the level I maxed out at on the first day of the cycling trip? For what its worth I have seen my HR hit the 200 plus level for previous high intensity cycling efforts so I don't think the 203 bpm reading was anyway an anomaly but perhaps tied in to the body being fresh on day 1 of a 7 day cycling trip where I had rested for a number of days in advance.

I currently use a maximum HR Value of 198 bpm to calculate my training zones . However, following my experience in the Pyrenees I'm questioning the validity of using a value such as 198 bpm as my max HR value when my HR was effectively stuck in the lower 180's each day bar the first day of the trip? Can the same be said when training mid season between weekend and midweek racing efforts when the body is fatigued and repairing itself?

Just wonder if anyone else has come across this as an issue or queried the true level of their maximum heart rate and how it ought to be calculated?

Inquitus

Granolite wrote: »

I did some online reading on this topic and one thing that I am still uncertain of was to whether you use the maximum peak HR value (i.e that HR value you would occasionally peak at for a period of a few seconds at a time) when body is fresh to calculate your heart rate training zones or the sort of max level you would plateau at when say cycling over a number of consecutive days such as a competitive multi day stage race?

For example on the first day of a recent cycling trip I maxed my HR to 203 BPM on a mountain climb for a certain level of perceived effort. I really put the hammer down so to speak for a period of 2-3 minutes, then relented somewhat as I took fright at the HR figure I've quoted! I saw my heart rate taper back 198 , 197, 195 etc...until i felt more comfortable riding at a sustainable level where I would not "blow the lights'' so to speak.
On consecutive days climbing for the same level of perceived effort I could not raise my HR above the 182-184 BPM range. This was experienced over a week of climbing day in day out in the Pyrenees.

The above example had me ask myself the question was my true maximum HR closer to the latter values than the level I maxed out at on the first day of the cycling trip? For what its worth I have seen my HR hit the 200 plus level for previous high intensity cycling efforts so I don't think the 203 bpm reading was anyway an anomaly but perhaps tied in to the body being fresh on day 1 of a 7 day cycling trip where I had rested for a number of days in advance.

I currently use a maximum HR Value of 198 bpm to calculate my training zones . However, following my experience in the Pyrenees I'm questioning the validity of using a value such as 198 bpm as my max HR value when my HR was effectively stuck in the lower 180's each day bar the first day of the trip? Can the same be said when training mid season between weekend and midweek racing efforts when the body is fatigued and repairing itself?

Just wonder if anyone else has come across this as an issue or queried the true level of their maximum heart rate and how it ought to be calculated?

Threshold HR is the key to training zones, using your Max HR to calculate zones applies a one size fits all methodology to something that can vary greatly from person to person.

A good way to find your LTHR is the following test

LTHR Test

After your warmup reset the clock (I use a lap function on my Garmin). Keep a cadence around 85-90 rpm. Don’t forget you have to pace yourself for 30 minutes, so don’t go out to hard, but hard enough to push yourself. This is a 30 min time trial. After 10 min or so you’ll start to feel the burn in your legs and your breathing should be heavy. You can only talk 2-3 words at a time. After 30 min, hit the lap function again to stop the clock. Get your average heart rate or watts.

The average Heart Rate is your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate (LTHR).

Why take only the last 20 min avg of the test? Cardiac drift. Your heart rate takes a while to get up to speed with your effort, usually 5-10 min. To accommodate this, you start your test early, to get your heart rate to up near the threshold and give a better indication of the LTHR.

http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training-sessions/lactatetheshold-heart-rate-and-ftp-test/

You can then calculate your zones using one of the many calculators.

http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training-sessions/zone-calculator/

Carawaystick

Saw a royal sociaty xmas lecture once with Chris Boardman on ahrm vs some teenager from the audience.

The upshot was Chris's heart rate shot up and shot back down, where the (bit less fit) audience member had a slower rise, lower peak and longer fall in hr

Granolite

Inquitus wrote: »

Threshold HR is the key to training zones, using your Max HR to calculate zones applies a one size fits all methodology to something that can vary greatly from person to person.

A good way to find your LTHR is the following test



http://mtbcoach.com/index.php/training-sessions/lactatetheshold-heart-rate-and-ftp-test/

You can then calculate your zones using one of the many calculators.

http://www.digifit.com/heartratezones/training-zones.asp

Thanks for those links. I suppose that makes some sense in that there is no way I could sustain 203 bpm for more than 20-30 seconds at a time. Well, I am making an assumption I couldn't. At some point I would hyperventilate I suspect,or worse!!. So to qualify all the above I'm assuming threshold HR is not the same as lactate threshold, as the latter is pitched somewhat below the maximum sustainable heart rate threshold. i.e one's HR threshold could be 182 but their lactate threshold might be in the region of 153-156 bpm (as in the bridge between aerobic and anaerobic) by reference to the karvonen method of determining heart rate zones?

Beasty

Your max HR cannot be less than the maximum you are recording at the current time. It is not the maximum you can sustain over a given period (well beyond a second or so I guess). Max HR does go down as you get older (by around 1rpm per year of age)

quozl

Beasty wrote: »

(by around 1rpm per year of age)

Beasty, I know you're mostly machine by now but I thought even your heart beat not revolved

Inquitus

Granolite wrote: »

snip

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201377644-Training-Acronyms-Defined-FTP-LTHR-NP-TSS-IF-

LTHR - Lactate Threshold Heart Rate

Lactate threshold heart rate, or LTHR is the maximum average heart rate you can hold for an hour. So if your average HR for an hour ends up being 180bpm, that means your LTHR is 180. It's very similar to FTP.

LTHR is not a good fitness marker, but it can be used to scale workouts. As you progress, your LTHR might go up or down, but don't think of this as a reflection of fitness. Stroke volume, BPM and efficiency play a role.

If you're doing your workouts based on heart rate, we use LTHR to scale the workouts. We suggest you try VirtualPower or get a power meter because we think it's a superior means of training, but we understand that that's not possible for everyone.

We use the 20 Minute Test to estimate your LTHR. This is the standard test in the cycling world when it comes to calculating LTHR. We take averages of the work-out intervals in each test and multiply them by a factor. This gives us a good estimate of LTHR.

Out of our two tests, the 20 minute test is superior in finding LTHR and I suggest you stick with that if you're doing HR based training.

Also read this

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/05/quick-guide-to-training-with-heart-rate-power-and-pace.html

BikeRacer

Or you could just join training peaks, upload a ride with heart rate data and they'll email you a recommended LHRT from their witchcraft software. They'll also email you every time they think it has changed.

Inquitus

BikeRacer wrote: »

Or you could just join training peaks, upload a ride with heart rate data and they'll email you a recommended LHRT from their witchcraft software. They'll also email you every time they think it has changed.

And you can get 1 months free premium with the code Stages14

NeedMoreGears

The definition of LTHR always confuses me. Is it better to measure over twenty minutes or sixty? My twenty minute one is 154 but over an hour it's 147. Highest I've ever seen on a bike is 168. Highest recently was 163 and I was just about ready to puke so I reckon 168 is a reasonable practical estimate of MHR. I don't use MHR /reserve and tend to base efforts around the twenty minute LTHR. Am I doing it right or wrong?

Alek

Ok. I am bit lost. What does it tell you guys in this regard that I can sustain 171 avg for an hour, while the max recorded HR was 184? That would be 93% effort. Does it mean that I haven't hit my max yet?

DaithiMC

Alek wrote: »

Ok. I am bit lost. What does it tell you guys in this regard that I can sustain 171 avg for an hour, while the max recorded HR was 184? That would be 93% effort. Does it mean that I haven't hit my max yet?

I would say that if you can sustain 171BPM for an hour your max HR is a lot higher than 184BPM.

Part of the problem is the use of the word "threshold". Despite this being an out of date terminology it has stuck to the language of endurance fitness. The better way to think about it is sustainable effort and the point of maximum sustainable effort is that point at which lactate is being generated in your system at the same rate at which it is being cleared. Why is that important? If lactate builds up so to do associated acidic by-products and you start to feel pain. Many talk about this as lactic acid, but that too, is somewhat erroneous, but not that important. The important point for you, when out on a bike is to understand at what average HR or power output you can sustain without the build up of acidic products in your system, and ultimately, fatigue which kills your performance.

The best way to do this is to have a Lactate step test done which can pinpoint, over a series of measurements, where the maximum clearance level is. The reason this is an indication of strength is that for a given heart rate, at a specific level of fitness, you can put out a specific number of watts. As your system becomes trained over time and you build capacity and strength, for the same heart rate you can output more power. Also the lactate clearance level is pushed to a higher power level as your muscles respond to the training so you can consider that your maximum clearance level is at a higher heart rate so you can sustain a higher output level at a higher heart rate too. Forgetting about the numbers for a second, this makes sense, as your perceived effort after training for a few weeks means that that hill you used to struggle up is easier. Well the maximum sustainable effort related to heart rate gives you something to look at - your heart rate - to quantify that difference.

If you don't want to do a lactate test (you can do them in UCD for instance), you will have to experiment by doing a series of 30min efforts around levels that are 60-80% of your MHR (again you will have to assess this in a twenty minute all out effort and see the maximum in that trace). One of the levels from 60-80% should give you a sense of where your maximum sustainable effort is. Also, its probably not one number but a range of +/- 2BPM so if it is, e.g., 165BPM, assume a range of 163-167BPM for practical purposes.

I had a test done in May this year and was at 161BPM when the lactate went up dramatically. This was at an output of 250watts. After the summer I might expect to see a higher wattage at 161BPM but the lactate might spike at, say, 168BPM at an even higher output so both my cardiac strength and leg strength have improved and I can keep an eye on the HR and have a better clue as to when I am going into the red. Though with a recent cold I have noticed my HR spike much quicker so illness and fatigue can cause differences in the numbers.

Cookie_Monster

if your vision isn't going funny and you can't taste metal it ain't your max HR

I can regularly get to 185-190 when trying to smash out things and it hurts but I've clocked 208 before on the garmin while doing some hideous segment or other.