NTA Design Guidelines for the Creation of Public Transport Information

icdg

This was mentioned a while back here, but at the time there was only a few snaps of this document. The full document's now up at www.transportforireland.ie

(warning: very large PDF)
http://www.transportforireland.ie/transitData/guidelines/Design%20guidelines%20for%20the%20Creation%20of%20Public%20Transport%20Information_v1.pdf


Its very interesting stuff - I'm not sure if Dublin Bus or Irish Rail have ever put together anything similar - given how frequently Irish Rail changes its signage standards I'd guess not! Indeed railway station signage is probably the only major thing missing from it. Not sure why (if any) is the timescale for implementing this, anyone know?

LXFlyer

icdg wrote: »

This was mentioned a while back here, but at the time there was only a few snaps of this document. The full document's now up at www.transportforireland.ie

(warning: very large PDF)
http://www.transportforireland.ie/transitData/guidelines/Design%20guidelines%20for%20the%20Creation%20of%20Public%20Transport%20Information_v1.pdf


Its very interesting stuff - I'm not sure if Dublin Bus or Irish Rail have ever put together anything similar - given how frequently Irish Rail changes its signage standards I'd guess not! Indeed railway station signage is probably the only major thing missing from it. Not sure why (if any) is the timescale for implementing this, anyone know?

Given this is to be rolled out across the country, it will take time. A standard bus stop pole is part of the project which should eliminate a lot of unnecessary street furniture.

But it is a HUGE step in the right direction.

Chris_5339762

Here it is in action, on a monitor inside at the reception at James' Hospital. Its as good as, if not better than, other countries that we strive to have our public transport on par with.

devnull

Excellent - If everything there is rolled out we will have outstanding information and very well presented too, about 100x better, whoever was responsible for it really should be commended,

The polish and standards of presentation and branding and slickness are head and shoulders above any of the branding in the country to date and dare I say it if they do all make it into production, better than the majority of other countries.

n97 mini

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Here it is in action, on a monitor inside at the reception at James' Hospital. Its as good as, if not better than, other countries that we strive to have our public transport on par with.

Very like the route maps at bus stops in London. Except it's missing an A-Z of destinations served and their required bus numbers, as well as frequency of each service, both vital.

icdg

lxflyer wrote: »

Given this is to be rolled out across the country, it will take time. A standard bus stop pole is part of the project which should eliminate a lot of unnecessary street furniture.

I see that the bus stop design is the London Buses style which Dublin Bus had already begun to roll out in Dublin city centre (but seemed to have halted after that), so hopefully they will be able to reuse and rebrand the ones already installed.

bk

WOW!!, just wow, well done NTA, absolutely great work.

One of the clearest and most detailed public transport information I've ever seen anywhere in the world.

In particular I love the inclusion of fares next to the destinations on the route maps, very clear and simple information.

I can't wait to see these rolled out across all Dublin bus poles and for BE and private bus company buses integrated into the same stops as DB.

My only complaint is I can't understand why we need two poles at every stop, both a bus stop and a separate RTPI poles.

I can't see any reason why the bus flag and info panel can't be integrated into the RTPI poles where they are close together. It would greatly reduce the amount of street furniture clutter and also reduce confusion (where is the bus going to stop? Bus pole or RTPI pole?).

noelfirl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Here it is in action, on a monitor inside at the reception at James' Hospital. Its as good as, if not better than, other countries that we strive to have our public transport on par with.

Based on the information in the style manual, the design shown there is going to be superseded by a refined design in new installations. I think that's good, because the above design struck me in some ways as quite wasteful of white space. Worth also pointing out that the equivalent screens I've seen in Heuston and Connolly do have A-Z finders on an adjacent screen.

That document is beautiful alright, and detailed beyond anything I think we have ever seen before. My key question is who will be responsible for the deployment and upkeep of the new signage/stops etc. The operators, the authority or a contractor? The critically important thing is that when the new signage etc. based around this system is deployed it must be rigorously maintained and the information updated on a rolling basis as soon as required.

I think it is also worthy to note that, to me at least, a lot of the basic design in that manual appears to be directly derived from the information system that Dublin Bus commissioned several years back, which I think is an indictment of the worthiness of that commission itself, and the results it produced.

Geuze

At long last.

Superb work.

For at least a decade I've been saying we need much better maps, at EVERY bus/tram/rail stop.

Local area maps, TfL-style spider maps, and whole network diagrams.


The main panel of every bus/tram stop should contain a map of every bus/tram/rail route, overlaid onto a street map [not just schematic].

LXFlyer

The manual is effectively implementing TfL design standards across all of our public transport services.

As I said before, all good things come to he who waits.

devnull

What worries me is the Guidelines part, maybe I'm just being critical, but when that word is mentioned it sometimes means that the end product can be rather different.

When I see something that says it will happen and has been decided and it is in production I will celebrate more.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

What worries me is the Guidelines part, maybe I'm just being critical, but when that word is mentioned it sometimes means that the end product can be rather different.

When I see something that says it will happen and has been decided and it is in production I will celebrate more.

I think you're taking the word a little too literally. The TfL manual is also described as "guidance".


Given the complexity and detail that this manual goes to, I don't think that the end product is going to be that different.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

WOW!!, just wow, well done NTA, absolutely great work.

One of the clearest and most detailed public transport information I've ever seen anywhere in the world.

In particular I love the inclusion of fares next to the destinations on the route maps, very clear and simple information.

I can't wait to see these rolled out across all Dublin bus poles and for BE and private bus company buses integrated into the same stops as DB.

My only complaint is I can't understand why we need two poles at every stop, both a bus stop and a separate RTPI poles.

I can't see any reason why the bus flag and info panel can't be integrated into the RTPI poles where they are close together. It would greatly reduce the amount of street furniture clutter and also reduce confusion (where is the bus going to stop? Bus pole or RTPI pole?).

I wonder if investing my pension fund in a Pole Manufacturer would be a good idea....?

Before we get TOO ahead of ourselves,has anybody come across one of the 27 NEW Stops required for Dublin CityScapes Luxury Coach Tour.....?

http://www.luxurytoursdublin.com/

I would have hoped that the NTA would have beaten the various Operators into some form of submission on this issue BEFORE embarking on the actual Infrastructural roll-out.

Failure to do this risks a re-run of the Leapcard scenario,whereby the most basic of issues which could/should have been sorted at Day 1,remain to one side,unaddressed, only to leap up later and bite everybody on the backside

Mrs OBumble

Overall looks very good.

I wonder if anyone costed the impact of choosing a typeface that's still copyright (Univers) - or some kind of system wide licensing applies.

And are all the pictogram symbols are in the public domain? The bus one is, but I don't recognise the others.

Page 43 is a little confusing, too, because it says "operator colour" - but then shows "commercial operators" with a very dull grey, vs the vivid yellow of DB and red of BE.

AlekSmart

noelfirl wrote: »

I think it is also worthy to note that, to me at least, a lot of the basic design in that manual appears to be directly derived from the information system that Dublin Bus commissioned several years back, which I think is an indictment of the worthiness of that commission itself,and the results it produced.

Very worthy of note Noelfirl,and underlines how that BAC initiative remains the ONLY large scale attempt by any operator to address the "Communication & Information" issue.

It will indeed be interesting to see whether,in terms of the 10% tendering proposals, BAC seek to exercise any rights over this work ?

foggy_lad

Is this sign on the GoBé services part of the new information?

devnull

Hopefully not, hopefully all the sides will actually just agree that it will get done to benefit everyone rather than operators trying to think they can influence discussions and or their own interests

I wouldn't give Dublin Bus that much praise, since whilst the initial true form stops included maps and many other features, over time they were all removed to become basic timetables.

This does so much more above and beyond that and the time has come for all information to be removed from the operators and handled by the NTA.

devnull

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is this sign on the GoBé services part of the new information?

GoBe is possibly the worst example of any company when it comes to on bus livery and the information on the outside of the bus, so thankfully no.

Mrs OBumble

devnull wrote: »

GoBe is possibly the worst example of any company when it comes to on bus livery and the information on the outside of the bus, so thankfully no.

I didn't see any mention in the standards of bus livery - except for the on-bus information sign standards.

Very few of the long distance coaches that I've been have any sort of on-bus information signs, AFAIK.

devnull

that's my point the vast majority of the gobe fleet are in liveries for many different companies make claims about the service that are not true and have no route number. Some of them not even a destination

For sure they are not the only ones but are the worst of the intercity operators that serve the capital in thatregard.

icdg

devnull wrote: »

GoBe is possibly the worst example of any company when it comes to on bus livery and the information on the outside of the bus, so thankfully no.

The fact that it reads "National Transport Authority" rather than the consumer facing brand "Transport for Ireland" is quite odd.

Chris_5339762

n97 mini wrote: »

Very like the route maps at bus stops in London. Except it's missing an A-Z of destinations served and their required bus numbers, as well as frequency of each service, both vital.

Both on the monitor to the left of that one, which I didn't take a photo of!

cdebru

bk wrote: »

WOW!!, just wow, well done NTA, absolutely great work.

One of the clearest and most detailed public transport information I've ever seen anywhere in the world.

In particular I love the inclusion of fares next to the destinations on the route maps, very clear and simple information.

I can't wait to see these rolled out across all Dublin bus poles and for BE and private bus company buses integrated into the same stops as DB.

My only complaint is I can't understand why we need two poles at every stop, both a bus stop and a separate RTPI poles.

I can't see any reason why the bus flag and info panel can't be integrated into the RTPI poles where they are close together. It would greatly reduce the amount of street furniture clutter and also reduce confusion (where is the bus going to stop? Bus pole or RTPI pole?).

Perhaps because if you are standing at the bus stop you should be able to see the RTPI display, but if it was on the same pole you would be standing away from it when the bus arrived 3 minutes earlier than the RTPI says and miss the bus.

Carawaystick

I think the keeping of the system with both bus stop numbers and bus stop letters in Dublin city is confusing. There should be only one unambiguous number for the stop.

There didn't seem to be any stage marking for Dublin bus city services, or markings to delimit outer suburban sections.

The document has no chapter headings to navigate easily from a sidebar

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

Hopefully not, hopefully all the sides will actually just agree that it will get done to benefit everyone rather than operators trying to think they can influence discussions and or their own interests

I wouldn't give Dublin Bus that much praise, since whilst the initial true form stops included maps and many other features, over time they were all removed to become basic timetables.

This does so much more above and beyond that and the time has come for all information to be removed from the operators and handled by the NTA.

I understand the Route/Area Maps originally used on Shelter Panels incurred the wrath of a Patent Agent (or two :eek:),which resulted in a (very) rapid removal of ALL the maps...just as with the Stage-Markings

devnull

I'mm not talking about the Ordinance survey maps, I'm talking about the coloured lines that used to be in the trueform stops above the timetables.

If you remember when they were first delivery they had a lot more info than just imetables they ahve these days.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

I'mm not talking about the Ordinance survey maps, I'm talking about the coloured lines that used to be in the trueform stops above the timetables.

If you remember when they were first delivery they had a lot more info than just imetables they ahve these days.

The technical term is spider maps.


These will return as part of this package.

Dyr

Looks good but like any plan you have to wonder who well it will do on first contact with the enemy, aka dublin bus.

etchyed

noelfirl wrote: »

That document is beautiful alright, and detailed beyond anything I think we have ever seen before. My key question is who will be responsible for the deployment and upkeep of the new signage/stops etc. The operators, the authority or a contractor? The critically important thing is that when the new signage etc. based around this system is deployed it must be rigorously maintained and the information updated on a rolling basis as soon as required.

Apologies all for the thread bump, but I just want to agree with and reiterate this point. Multi-operator stops in particular will not be maintained well if the current approach is retained. In my opinion, the NTA should take on responsibility for bus stops, much as councils, PTEs and TfL do in the UK. It is my hope that this is the intention, but I haven't seen anything in the public domain to indicate that this is the case.

In general, there is no doubt that this document is a fantastic piece of work, and very well thought through. However, I do take issue with one of its core principles, and some of the outcomes that principle leads to. Mode-based colour coding creates inconsistencies that are quite irritating, and limits the usefulness of some maps and information.

Under this system, Luas lines will be represented on maps in purple, as that is the colour that has been allocated to their mode. So if you're looking at a pedestrian map of O'Connell Street, you'll see a purple line crossing it along Abbey Street. This purple line is known as the Red Line, and will be represented with a red line elsewhere. This will create confusion and limit the usefulness of such maps. It should go without saying that it is not really best practice to have rail or light rail lines represented in different colours on different maps.

D8 boy

Is anyone aware of any progress on this? I have not seen a single bus stop in and around Dublin which conforms to these standards. Locations like College Street and Nassau St remain a confusing mess of stops and clutter.

devnull

There is a new stop design that is rolling out around Cork on a small scale at the moment.

There is supposed to be a trial version of a NTA livery going on a coach this month as well, but it's unlikely to be on a state operated service due to opposition.