O lawd, please don't let me be misunderstood

rozeboosje

Gah!!! - The other day I complained about the 84x service. This service is becoming more and more popular with commuters, to the point where it's often like a can of sardines going into town, and the bus driver has to skip stops and leave passengers standing there looking forlornly at the bus as it passes them by without stopping.

What's more, as this bus goes down the M11 for part of its journey, it is wholly inappropriate to have people standing in the isle for that part of the journey. So I said, in my complaint, that there were passengers standing in the isle while the bus was driving "at motorway speeds". Upon which I received the acknowledgement:

"I have sent your complaint regarding passengers being left at Southern Cross and speeding on the M50 to Donnybrook Depot "

Aaaaaaahhhhhhnoooooooooooo!!!!!!!! I never said the bus was SPEEDING. I said it was driving "at motorway speeds" which, given the fact that it was on a motorway at the time, was perfectly appropriate. The speed wasn't inappropriate; what was inappropriate was that the bus is so busy that people have to stand in the isle while the bus has to drive along a motorway.

I have nothing but sympathy for the poor bus driver. He's stuck between several rocks and several hard places. What the 'eck is he SUPPOSED to do? If he only fills the bus until all the seats are taken, and then leaves everybody else standing .... well, the other day I counted them and there were NINE people standing in the isle by the time we got to the N11. These people have NO alternative to the 84x. No other bus goes down the Southern Cross road in Bray. The bus driver HAS to take them on. Even so, one day the bus was SO jammers that at the end of the Southern Cross he did have to leave two people standing. I can only imagine how that must have made their day.

So he takes on everyone on the Southern Cross road, and people are standing in the isle. Then he has to drive down the motorway. Then what does he do? If he drives at a speed that is appropriate given the fact that it's a motorway and given the volume of other traffic on that road, then unless it is an actual traffic jam he is really going too fast to have people standing in the isle, even though he isn't actually speeding. If he drives at a speed that would be appropriate for having people standing in the isle, conversely, he's going to cause an obstruction. Having somebody trundle down the motorway at such a speed is almost as dangerous as speeding. People don't expect, coming down the motorway at 120km/h, to come upon a vehicle going so slowly that it'll appear almost stationary. So the poor sod can't win. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

I sent them a clarification. Hope they get it in time before some poor unsuspecting bus driver gets it in the neck for no good reason.

rozeboosje

should that be "isle" or "aisle"? I'm never sure.

Hilly Bill

aisle but its clear what you mean .

rozeboosje

Dang. I KNEW it. I was reading it back and I thought: "that just don't like roight"!

LXFlyer

Dublin Bus double deck buses are fitted with speed limiters, so they would be going no faster on a motorway than they do on a dual carriageway or open road, so I think the reference to standees being in a dangerous position is probably a bit far fetched.

rozeboosje

Not sure about that. Hard to tell without a speedometer, but the bus was keeping up well with busy but free flowing rush hour traffic, so on the motorway I would think that we easily reached speeds of 80km/h - that is not a speed that it would ever reach on any other part of its route, and I do think having people standing at 80km/h seems a bit much.

But, granted, I could be mistaken.

LXFlyer

rozeboosje wrote: »

Not sure about that. Hard to tell without a speedometer, but the bus was keeping up well with busy but free flowing rush hour traffic, so on the motorway I would think that we easily reached speeds of 80km/h - that is not a speed that it would ever reach on any other part of its route, and I do think having people standing at 80km/h seems a bit much.

But, granted, I could be mistaken.

They are most definitely fitted with speed limiters - and are limited to 65km/h, which they could reach on many sections of different routes.

I'd focus on the main issue - which is the need for additional capacity if people are being left behind.

rozeboosje

lxflyer wrote: »

They are most definitely fitted with speed limiters - and are limited to 65km/h, which they could reach on many sections of different routes.

I'm pretty sure we've been going faster than that on the motorway. But not absolutely so.

ronn

rozeboosje wrote: »

Not sure about that. Hard to tell without a speedometer, but the bus was keeping up well with busy but free flowing rush hour traffic, so on the motorway I would think that we easily reached speeds of 80km/h - that is not a speed that it would ever reach on any other part of its route, and I do think having people standing at 80km/h seems a bit much.

But, granted, I could be mistaken.

The buses are fitted with speed limiters, which limits the speed of the bus, in dublin bus 's case to 67kph, that means the bus won't go a whole lot over that speed,
People are allowed stand on the bus, there licenced to carry say 67 seated 1wheelchair and 15 standing, no standing upstairs. (apporoximate numbers) each bus has the numbers on it,

Vic_08

rozeboosje wrote: »

Gah!!! - The other day I complained about the 84x service. This service is becoming more and more popular with commuters, to the point where it's often like a can of sardines going into town, and the bus driver has to skip stops and leave passengers standing there looking forlornly at the bus as it passes them by without stopping.

What's more, as this bus goes down the M11 for part of its journey, it is wholly inappropriate to have people standing in the isle for that part of the journey. So I said, in my complaint, that there were passengers standing in the isle while the bus was driving "at motorway speeds". Upon which I received the acknowledgement:

"I have sent your complaint regarding passengers being left at Southern Cross and speeding on the M50 to Donnybrook Depot "

Aaaaaaahhhhhhnoooooooooooo!!!!!!!! I never said the bus was SPEEDING. I said it was driving "at motorway speeds" which, given the fact that it was on a motorway at the time, was perfectly appropriate. The speed wasn't inappropriate; what was inappropriate was that the bus is so busy that people have to stand in the isle while the bus has to drive along a motorway.

I have nothing but sympathy for the poor bus driver. He's stuck between several rocks and several hard places. What the 'eck is he SUPPOSED to do? If he only fills the bus until all the seats are taken, and then leaves everybody else standing .... well, the other day I counted them and there were NINE people standing in the isle by the time we got to the N11. These people have NO alternative to the 84x. No other bus goes down the Southern Cross road in Bray. The bus driver HAS to take them on. Even so, one day the bus was SO jammers that at the end of the Southern Cross he did have to leave two people standing. I can only imagine how that must have made their day.

So he takes on everyone on the Southern Cross road, and people are standing in the isle. Then he has to drive down the motorway. Then what does he do? If he drives at a speed that is appropriate given the fact that it's a motorway and given the volume of other traffic on that road, then unless it is an actual traffic jam he is really going too fast to have people standing in the isle, even though he isn't actually speeding. If he drives at a speed that would be appropriate for having people standing in the isle, conversely, he's going to cause an obstruction. Having somebody trundle down the motorway at such a speed is almost as dangerous as speeding. People don't expect, coming down the motorway at 120km/h, to come upon a vehicle going so slowly that it'll appear almost stationary. So the poor sod can't win. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

I sent them a clarification. Hope they get it in time before some poor unsuspecting bus driver gets it in the neck for no good reason.

The thing I find most surprising about this is that you are a regular on the 84X and have not noticed just how slow it is moving on the motorway compared to other traffic.

As lxflyer said speed limiters are fitted to all buses, coaches and HGVs.

For all Dublin Bus double deckers the set speed is either 65 or 70kph far below the general limits on much of the N11 and M11.

About the only thing you are correct about is that it they are driving at a speed so far below that of other traffic on 120kph motorways that it causes conflict and increases danger for all road users. This is down to a stupid decision 5 years ago to put a blanket 65kph limit on buses designed to carry standing passengers, in the UK identical vehicles are allowed do 80kph (50mph) on normal roads, 96kph (60mph) on dual carriageways and 112kph (70mph) on motorways.

rozeboosje

Hehe. Usually I'm asleep at that stage, so maybe that's why I didn't notice. I'm still confused though; if the bus is fitted with a speed limiter, why did DB respond to me with this acknowledgement of " speeding on the M50 " - surely that would then be physically impossible?

L1011

I'd be fairly confident that the old 66X service that went backwards through Maynooth and didn't stop till Woodies went significantly more than 65km/h on the M4 - was the limiter higher in the past?

A 65km/h vehicle on a motorway that is otherwise running at 120km/h is a road safety issue all of its own.

LXFlyer

rozeboosje wrote: »

Hehe. Usually I'm asleep at that stage, so maybe that's why I didn't notice. I'm still confused though; if the bus is fitted with a speed limiter, why did DB respond to me with this acknowledgement of " speeding on the M50 " - surely that would then be physically impossible?

The response (as per your quote) said they had sent your complaint "regarding speeding" to Donnybrook.

I don't see an acknowledgement of speeding there, just an acknowledgement of your complaint.

Until it has been investigated at garage level, you're not going to get a detailed response.

rozeboosje

Maybe they set the limiter higher on buses that need to travel on a motorway? Heck, I don't know. Maybe ALL the traffic on the M11 at that hour of the morning isn't going significantly faster than, say 70km/h due to the sheer volume of rush hour traffic, and I'm simply assuming that since it's keeping up with the other traffic it's going as fast as them, when actually they're going as slow as it..... if you catch my drift. Anyhoooo... I'm just concerned that I may have landed some poor bus driver in it, when what I really wanted to point out was that we need additional capacity on that route.

LXFlyer

MYOB wrote: »

I'd be fairly confident that the old 66X service that went backwards through Maynooth and didn't stop till Woodies went significantly more than 65km/h on the M4 - was the limiter higher in the past?

A 65km/h vehicle on a motorway that is otherwise running at 120km/h is a road safety issue all of its own.

Well take a trip on the 747 - it goes via the M1 at 65 km/h all day every day.

The RVs might have been capable of higher speeds due to their engine spec, but certainly all the current fleet are restricted to 65 km/h.

rozeboosje

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see an acknowledgement of speeding there, just an acknowledgement of your complaint.

Good point.

ronn

rozeboosje wrote: »

Maybe they set the limiter higher on buses that need to travel on a motorway? Heck, I don't know. Maybe ALL the traffic on the M11 at that hour of the morning isn't going significantly faster than, say 70km/h due to the sheer volume of rush hour traffic, and I'm simply assuming that since it's keeping up with the other traffic it's going as fast as them, when actually they're going as slow as it..... if you catch my drift. Anyhoooo... I'm just concerned that I may have landed some poor bus driver in it, when what I really wanted to point out was that we need additional capacity on that route.

Well why didn't you just say that "the bus was full and would it be possible to get more buses on the route"
Instead you made a big song and dance about a bus with hundreds of people on it travelling at 100mph,
Id imagine the response was just to pacify you, I'd imagine the amout of stupid complaints they receive from people like yourself they just have to answer stupidity with stupidity,

Vic_08

MYOB wrote: »

I'd be fairly confident that the old 66X service that went backwards through Maynooth and didn't stop till Woodies went significantly more than 65km/h on the M4 - was the limiter higher in the past?

Older buses such as the AVs were set to 70kph and AFAIK early batches of RH/RA did not have limiters when delivered nor did anything older than that, Most of those would have been limited by their gearing anyway, most would have topped out in their highest gear under 90kph.

MYOB wrote: »

A 65km/h vehicle on a motorway that is otherwise running at 120km/h is a road safety issue all of its own.

It is, believe me. I have driven plenty on motorways and it is not a pleasant experience, regularly get cars closing in rapidly and realising late the speed differential. Have had some numptys get stuck behind for a while and start beeping and flashing.

This however is just another Irish law that has no logic or reason to it, just a random arbitrary rule that casues more problems for no gain.


It is possible that there may be the odd rogue bus with a slipped or broken limiter in the DB fleet, particularly among the older buses but it would be an exception. Considering how many I have passed on the N4 in the time I have been driving coaches I haven't noticed any going unusually fast, on the other hand trucks with altered or non-existent limiters are very obvious although that is rare too.

rozeboosje wrote: »

Maybe they set the limiter higher on buses that need to travel on a motorway?

No higher limiters on any buses, they are set before delivery either by the dealer or an external contractor.

rozeboosje

Every forum has its trolls :-)

Interesting to see how it'll pan out. I must say, fair deuce to them, that a couple of days after I told them how busy the 84x gets an inspector got on to the bus and did a headcount. So they don't just fob you off.

Victor

ronn wrote: »

Well why didn't you just say that "the bus was full and would it be possible to get more buses on the route"
Instead you made a big song and dance about a bus with hundreds of people on it travelling at 100mph,
Id imagine the response was just to pacify you, I'd imagine the amout of stupid complaints they receive from people like yourself they just have to answer stupidity with stupidity,

Constructive posts only please

rozeboosje wrote: »

Every forum has its trolls :-)

Interesting to see how it'll pan out. I must say, fair deuce to them, that a couple of days after I told them how busy the 84x gets an inspector got on to the bus and did a headcount. So they don't just fob you off.

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

Moderator

rozeboosje

Victor wrote: »

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

I can handle a troll, but thanks for the offer.

Macy0161

rozeboosje wrote: »

Maybe they set the limiter higher on buses that need to travel on a motorway? Heck, I don't know. Maybe ALL the traffic on the M11 at that hour of the morning isn't going significantly faster than, say 70km/h due to the sheer volume of rush hour traffic, and I'm simply assuming that since it's keeping up with the other traffic it's going as fast as them, when actually they're going as slow as it..... if you catch my drift. Anyhoooo... I'm just concerned that I may have landed some poor bus driver in it, when what I really wanted to point out was that we need additional capacity on that route.

When the m11 is clear (usually during the summer rather than winter) the 84x causes a big enough slow down behind it to be honest. With everyone trying to overtake from the driving lane, it causes a bit of a rolling road block. So I'd guess its going a lot slower than the posted speed limit.

Obviously in the winter when its more likely to be backed up between bray and the merge/ split, it doesnt have the same impact.

rozeboosje

Indeed, I guess I just didn't notice it that much while I'm sitting there snoozing happily in my seat. All the same, though, having people stand in the aisle on a motorway just seems ... wrong to me. In the end, though, the important thing is that this doesn't end up becoming something a driver gets unfairly blamed for when, in my opinion, they need to add more capacity to the route.

Alun

lxflyer wrote: »

They are most definitely fitted with speed limiters - and are limited to 65km/h, which they could reach on many sections of different routes.

.. and often do, even in areas with 50km/h limits like the long stretch the 145 takes between Bray and Shankill.

monument

rozeboosje wrote: »

I can handle a troll, but thanks for the offer.

Don't reply to modration in-thread.

- moderator

rozeboosje

Have a VERY nice evening, everybody.

rozeboosje

Macy0161 wrote: »

When the m11 is clear (usually during the summer rather than winter) the 84x causes a big enough slow down behind it to be honest. With everyone trying to overtake from the driving lane, it causes a bit of a rolling road block. So I'd guess its going a lot slower than the posted speed limit.

Obviously in the winter when its more likely to be backed up between bray and the merge/ split, it doesnt have the same impact.

I forced myself to stay awake after the Southern Cross today. It was difficult, but it was a sacrifice I was willing to make :P

Anyhoo - what I observed was the bus keeping up perfectly with traffic immediately after joining what at that point is still the N11. However, upon approaching the M11 the bus keeps going at pretty much the same speed while the other traffic is now passing it out. Not at a HUGE speed, but passing it out all the same. Funny how I never noticed that in all this time. So I think you're right, it certainly isn't traveling at "motorway speeds" as I assumed.

I decided to install an Android "speedometer" app, just out of curiosity. Let's see what speed that bus is REALLY doing :-)

devnull

The speed limiters are fitted to all vehicles in the fleet.

If you think that perhaps that the bus is still going over the speeds mentioned here then you should contact Dublin Bus and let them know about it so they can resolve the issue with the limiter.

Certainly in the days of the RVs there were vehicles that were able to go much higher than 65km/h but they were few and far between and I can only think of a couple of buses.

When I used to get a 38 a few years ago there was a particular driver who drove crazy slow on the N3 and went "red light hunting" whenever he saw a green light he would slow down almost to a crawl and speed up as soon as it turned red, he'd then radio to the control he was running late and if he could go "Special" back from the City Centre to Damastown to recover lost time. Thankfully that was a number of years ago and drivers cannot get away with that anymore.

You always knew when he was driving the bus since you could get the departure 15 minutes later from Damastown and you'd always pass his bus on the bypass going about half the speed of the rest of the traffic.

rozeboosje

Yipes. I wouldn't be happy if that driver was driving the bus I was on and I was hoping to catch a connecting bus further down the road ! Good to hear that they can't get away with that anymore :-)

At this stage I honestly don't know what to think anymore. At first I just thought that the bus was traveling "at motorway speeds" down the M11. Then someone pointed out that that shouldn't be possible as buses are fitted with speed limiters that should make it impossible for it to go over 65 km/h. Then I thought that it "felt" faster than that to me. Then I realised that I couldn't really say that for sure because half the time I'm asleep when he's on the M11, and the other half of the time I'm at best only half awake. Then I checked it again this morning, forcing myself to stay alert, and it looks like the original poster mentioning the 65km/h limit could very well have been right. So at this stage my curiosity has been piqued and I just need to find out, nothing more. I have no intention to report any excess of speed to Dublin Bus, though, unless I feel the driver is actually driving dangerously, which thankfully happens very rarely indeed. Most drivers drive exceptionally well, and it's a thankless job at the best of times. That's why the initial reply I got from Dublin Bus worried me; they seemed to focus on an issue that hadn't even occurred to me, and which might lead to a bus driver being reprimanded for picking the best of a bad lot of options available to him.

corktina

Isn't it illegal to have standing passengers on a Motorway?

rozeboosje

corktina wrote: »

Isn't it illegal to have standing passengers on a Motorway?

I wouldn't be surprised to find it was illegal to go down a motorway at 120 km/h with passengers standing in the aisle. But given that they're not actually doing that, and assuming the bus is traveling no faster than its limited speed of 65 km/h ... I just don't know. I personally don't think it's wise to have standing passengers on a motorway at any speed, after all the rest of the traffic will not be limited to said speed. But most things that aren't wise aren't actually illegal XD

Hilly Bill

yes, they could get knocked down.

rozeboosje

Hilly Bill wrote: »

yes, they could get knocked down.

Oh great. Now I have that Chumbawamba song going around my head :P

corktina

I recall a coach driver in the UK telling me that he was unwilling to leave passengers behind during a rail strike and carried them sitting on the floor!

rozeboosje

corktina wrote: »

I recall a coach driver in the UK telling me that he was unwilling to leave passengers behind during a rail strike and carried them sitting on the floor!

Well, exactly. That would have been the decent thing to do alright.

stop

lxflyer wrote: »

Well take a trip on the 747 - it goes via the M1 at 65 km/h all day every day.

The RVs might have been capable of higher speeds due to their engine spec, but certainly all the current fleet are restricted to 65 km/h.

Does the M1 between the Airport & M50 not have a speed limit of 80km/h?

I've always remembered "65CSU" (as Gaeilge) signage that referenced number of passengers upstairs/downstairs on Dublin buses - I assumed that was a limiter fitted or maybe just a 'suggestion' along with the number of standees .

stop

rozeboosje wrote: »

At this stage I honestly don't know what to think anymore. At first I just thought that the bus was traveling "at motorway speeds" down the M11. Then someone pointed out that that shouldn't be possible as buses are fitted with speed limiters that should make it impossible for it to go over 65 km/h. Then I thought that it "felt" faster than that to me. Then I realised that I couldn't really say that for sure because half the time I'm asleep when he's on the M11, and the other half of the time I'm at best only half awake. Then I checked it again this morning, forcing myself to stay alert, and it looks like the original poster mentioning the 65km/h limit could very well have been right. So at this stage my curiosity has been piqued and I just need to find out, nothing more. I have no intention to report any excess of speed to Dublin Bus, though, unless I feel the driver is actually driving dangerously, which thankfully happens very rarely indeed.

Assuming you have some kind of smart phone, have a look in your app store for a speedometer app that uses GPS - mystery will be solved

rozeboosje

stop wrote: »

Assuming you have some kind of smart phone, have a look in your app store for a speedometer app that uses GPS - mystery will be solved

That's exactly what I did. I'll be trying it out tomorrow!