Time To Ditch PR-STV And Give FPP A Spin?

DazMarz

As it says on the tin: is it time for Ireland to ditch the traditional Proportional Representation-Single Transferable Vote system that we have and switch to the British/American First Past The Post system?

I think that the implementation of a FPP system has a number of merits that would, for the better, shake up the Irish political system, make the political system less clientelist/focused-on-Parish-Pump-nonsense, make political parties and politicians more convicted on their platforms and make the whole bloody process a lot simpler!

As it stands in Ireland, we have 43 Dáil Constituencies who each elect between 3 and 5 T.D.'s per constituency. The problem here is that when a person goes to their T.D. about a problem, if T.D. #1 does not respond adequately, they can go to T.D. #2, #3, #4, etc. Essentially, the T.D.'s in each constituency are vying with each other for praise, plaudits and votes. They are way too focused on the local element, the Parish Pump and their own, small fiefdom and constituents. If they don't focus locally, don't do the Parish Pump thing, and if they don't go to Pat Murphy's funeral, they're out of a job.

T.D.'s also have to try to be all things to all men; 2, 3, 4 preferences in PR can make all the difference, so T.D.'s tend not to allow themselves to stand on strong, controversial convictions. Instead they talk in platitudes, trying to maximise their appeal broadly and becoming more and more focused upon keeping people happy as automatons rather than actually having strong convictions about how to run the country. PR allows this to continue. FPP would eliminate it almost entirely.

T.D.'s are essentially doing the shíte that local Councillors should be doing; looking after the parish pump, the roads, the funerals and so on. Instead of focusing on running the bloody country, they have to pander and press the flesh way too often, or else their spell in the Dáil is likely to be very short.

Consider instead a system whereby there were 158 Constituencies dotted around the country (158 will be the number of T.D.'s elected at the next General Election). 1 T.D. per constituency. They are the ones with the absolute power over the constituency. Nobody else to go to, nobody else to blame, nobody else to give plaudits to. There can be no mistaking who is responsible for all the good and/or bad in a constituency.

FPP is not the most perfect voting system out there, but it is, in my own opinion of course, far preferable to the PR-STV system which is way more clientelist and open to abuse and, in Ireland anyway, is to the detriment to the betterment of the country as a whole.

Invest more powers into the County Council to allow Councillors to more effectively deal with the Parish Pump nonsense; leave the T.D.'s to run the country itself and not to have to worry about local issues at all. And make them all get elected through a "winner-take-all" First Past The Post system.

While the British system is not perfect, I think it is a damn sight better than the system we currently have here. Yes, there is the argument that it is less democratic in terms of people not having a preference for the eventual politician who gets elected, but it would also (if more power was given to local Councils) weed out a lot of the Parish Pump stuff and allow a smoother running of the country, necessitated by T.D.'s not having to worry about keeping a small section of the populace happy.

SeanW

I think that's a bit oversimplified. PR-STV in mutliple seat constituencies is not the only cause of political clientelism, "parish pump politics" lobbying corruption and other problems are to a certain extent fundamental to politics.

PR-STV has the fundamental advantage of being more democratic and being fairer to smaller parties and independents.

If you think FPTP has been such a good idea, just look at the United States. Three words: "Two-Party System" ...

Doctor14

PR-STV is only one type of PR system, there are many more. PR beats FPTP every time as a democratic system, but we just happened to be one of the very few countries to go for the PR-STV system.

A few countries use the PR List system (France/Italy), basic PR or a mixture of the 2. Or the MMPR System (Germany). A PR List system might be a better system for Ireland as some talented people might get elected. The downside is that muppets can also get elected but I don't think it could get any worse than what we already have.

Peregrinus

If you think that FPP discourages clientelism, parish-pump politics and petty corruption, you obviously haven't paid much attention to how it plays out in the US.

eire4

No thanks. While we have our issues and could look at ways to improve the current system FPP is not the answer and is certainly less democratic in terms of giving voices to smaller parties. We need more democracy not less which is what FPP would give us. Personally I would like to see us look at ways to increase local powers for instance.

Godge

Doctor14 wrote: »

PR-STV is only one type of PR system, there are many more. PR beats FPTP every time as a democratic system, but we just happened to be one of the very few countries to go for the PR-STV system.

A few countries use the PR List system (France/Italy), basic PR or a mixture of the 2. Or the MMPR System (Germany). A PR List system might be a better system for Ireland as some talented people might get elected. The downside is that muppets can also get elected but I don't think it could get any worse than what we already have.

I agree. It might be time to look at our PR system to check whether it is working properly and are there better PR arrangements but we should certainly avoid FPTP.

Madd Finn

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you think that FPP discourages clientelism, parish-pump politics and petty corruption, you obviously haven't paid much attention to how it plays out in the US.

Or indeed in the UK. The points made in the OP are assinine, impertinent and inaccurate.

There have been at least two referenda in the past trying to change our current mechanism to FPP. Both failed.

Take the hint. What we have is far from perfect but ANYTHING is better than FPP.

Banjoxed

No.

Thankfully this would need a referendum.

DazMarz

OK, I got well and truly spanked here...

I know that no system is perfect... maybe a shake up in the PR-STV that we currently have? I just used FPP as an example of a dramatic change. Maybe a less-dramatic change is needed.

eire4

Banjoxed wrote: »

No.

Thankfully this would need a referendum.

Fianna Fail already tried this one before and thankfully got shot down in the referendum. 1959 I believe.

Banjoxed

eire4 wrote: »

Fianna Fail already tried this one before and thankfully got shot down in the referendum. 1959 I believe.

And in 1968.

Banjoxed

DazMarz wrote: »

OK, I got well and truly spanked here...

I know that no system is perfect... maybe a shake up in the PR-STV that we currently have? I just used FPP as an example of a dramatic change. Maybe a less-dramatic change is needed.

Perhaps a change to AV: the Australian system might work. Even though it is "single seat PR" it still means that the worst inequities of the British system are avoided.

Godge

DazMarz wrote: »

OK, I got well and truly spanked here...

I know that no system is perfect... maybe a shake up in the PR-STV that we currently have? I just used FPP as an example of a dramatic change. Maybe a less-dramatic change is needed.

Now you are talking. it would be interesting to use the data from the last general election and apply other systems to it to see can we get a greater correlation between first choice votes and party seats.

eire4

Banjoxed wrote: »

And in 1968.

Yes your right I though there was a second attempt to pull the wool over the electorate eyes but I couldn't remember for sure.

Flukey

First past the post is very undemocratic. In theory a party could get the minority of the vote and 100% of the seats. For all its faults, the system we have works well for us and gives us a fairer representation of how the people actually vote.

eire4

Flukey wrote: »

First past the post is very undemocratic. In theory a party could get the minority of the vote and 100% of the seats. For all its faults, the system we have works well for us and gives us a fairer representation of how the people actually vote.

A classic example of what you say was the last House of Representatives elections in the US in 2012 using the FPTP system. The Democrats overall got about 1.4 million more votes then the Republicans which amounted to about 1.2% more of the vote. Yet the Republicans won with 234 seats to 201.