New York Bike incident / #nostrava

Social media is going nuts about a fatal bicycle accident in New York's central park where a guy on his bike struck and fatally injured a pedestrian who died in the last few hours.

http://gothamist.com/2014/09/19/cyclist_central_park_tarlov.php

The guy was allegedly on his tri-bars when he hit the pedestrian and had been recording hot segments in the park previously.


People are advocating a boycott of Strava:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.de/2014/09/sorry-we-have-important-things-to.html



I love it as a tool to compare my fitness and progress but some aspects of it make me uneasy. The recent decision to allow hazardous segments to have leader boards for instance.

What are people's feelings on Strava?

seamus

Yawn.

Same thing happened in SF recently.

This fncking tool would have been on his tribars hammering around central park even if strava didn't exist. And he probably did it long before strava existed.

People are morons, both this guy and those demonising strava.

Alek

He was wearing Rapha. Lets boycott Rapha. And tri-bars.

What was the bike?

Mycroft H

Riddle me this...

How many of us have put the hammer down when we know we're on a segment?

Zyzz

Ban tri-bars. Simple.

lennymc

if strava makes you feel un-easy, simply slow down.

bcmf

Zyzz wrote: »

Ban tri-athlete's altogether. Simple.

I couldn't agree more.
A plague on modern society.

JBokeh

Strava didn't cause it, but strava didn't help it either. He would probably have been bombing anyway,but the temptation of getting a decent strava placing probably made him go that bit harder. I doubt if he hit her a bit slower the result would have been any different though,unless there was a big difference in speed.

Blaming strava for that is like blaming whoever made the aerobars he was on,it all contributed,but at the end of the day it is only the rider to blame.

Strava has taken some of the socialness out of cycling,you always try to better yourself,but with strava you always feel the need to one up a few other people in the process. Though the added bit of competition is social too I guess,just means you don't stop to have a quick natter with people you might meet along the way

niceonetom

Just to put this is a wider context, there were 156 pedestrians killed by motorists in NY in 2014.

Leroy42

^^not sure what context that gives it.

Idiot is racing around Central Park and now a wonen is in a serious condition. Not really any need for a wider context

godtabh

Why focus on strava? It could have been any other app. Garmin has segments on it now.

The concept of personal responsibility has gone in society now. There was only on idiot on a bike. With tri-bars. Going to fast. The blame stops with him and no one else

ThisRegard

Leroy42 wrote: »

Idiot is racing around Central Park and now a wonen is in a serious condition. Not really any need for a wider context

Can't get much more serious than death in fairness.



I don't user Strava when on the bike, that makes me sad. But I do use it for running. If I clatter some lad walking home from work one evening, can I blame Strava ?

lennymc

this piece claims 3 pedestrians were killed by cyclists between 2006 and 2011. I doubt those cyclists used strava.

ThisRegard

Wasn't there a similar case in SF last year in which the family of the dead cyclist tried to sue Strava ?
Edit: Here it is, judge saw sense in this case http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/5/4399718/cycling-app-strava-not-to-blame-for-kim-flint-death

Maybe it's time to geo-restrict it.

nelly17

niceonetom wrote: »

Just to put this is a wider context, there were 156 pedestrians killed by motorists in NY in 2014.

While strolling through a park?

07Lapierre

nelly17 wrote: »

While strolling through a park?

There are roads in Central Park.

Inquitus

What this fella was doing was utterly stupid and reprehensible, but the complete disregard pedestrians have for cycle lanes doesn't help either.

rainbow kirby

Strava is a tool, nothing more, nothing less - it's the person using it and how they choose to use it that matters. Just sounds like the cyclist should have been a bit more careful and it has had tragic results.

I do a lot of my cycling on a similar loop here in London - outer circle of Regent's Park, which is about the only HGV and bus-free loop for a very significant distance so it is always full of cyclists on relatively fast road and TT bikes. I do use Strava, but segments are just a curiosity - check after the ride and "oh look, got a PB on the TriLondon 10 mile TT segment. That's nice." etc. Lots of poor awareness from pedestrians though - probably because with London Zoo there it brings a lot of tourists, and somehow the level of awareness just seems to hit the deck. Still have to be careful though.

lennymc

ThisRegard wrote: »

Maybe it's time to geo-restrict it.

Or, maybe it's time for people to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame everything else.

Who is to say the pedestrian (RIP) didnt step into a cycle path where the cyclist was legally cycling. Look at the pheonix park for an example of where that happens. What if there was a low speed collision where the pedestrian falls and strikes their head.

Lusk_Doyle

JBokeh wrote: »

Strava didn't cause it, but strava didn't help it either. He would probably have been bombing anyway,but the temptation of getting a decent strava placing probably made him go that bit harder. I doubt if he hit her a bit slower the result would have been any different though,unless there was a big difference in speed.

Blaming strava for that is like blaming whoever made the aerobars he was on,it all contributed,but at the end of the day it is only the rider to blame.

Strava has taken some of the socialness out of cycling,you always try to better yourself,but with strava you always feel the need to one up a few other people in the process. Though the added bit of competition is social too I guess,just means you don't stop to have a quick natter with people you might meet along the way

That's akin to saying "I was forced to overtake dangerously so it's their fault." I disagree with your sentiment.

Lusk_Doyle

ThisRegard wrote: »

Wasn't there a similar case in SF last year in which the family of the dead cyclist tried to sue Strava ?
Edit: Here it is, judge saw sense in this case http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/5/4399718/cycling-app-strava-not-to-blame-for-kim-flint-death

Maybe it's time to geo-restrict it.

Because of two isolated incidents? How many users has it got versus the amount of crashes? Seems like a knee jerk reaction to me.

godtabh

I was in a park in Brussles a couple of weekends ago. Park was closed off to traffic but plenty of people around.

I was the first in the group to arrive and had some time to kill. I did a couple of laps. No idea of there was strava segments in the area but was enjoying cycling the bike. I quickly realised where there was fast parts, so parts and parts full of pedestrians. I put the foot down where it was save and took it easy where there was pedestrians.

As it turns out there was strava segments and while I did get a few cups it didn't take away from the cycle of put the safety of any one in doubt. Its all about cop on

godtabh

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Because of two isolated incidents? How many users has it got versus the amount of crashes? Seems like a knee jerk reaction to me.

I think he means ban it from America cause they are over reacting.

Lusk_Doyle

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Strava is a tool, nothing more, nothing less - it's the person using it and how they choose to use it that matters. Just sounds like the cyclist should have been a bit more careful and it has had tragic results.

I do a lot of my cycling on a similar loop here in London - outer circle of Regent's Park, which is about the only HGV and bus-free loop for a very significant distance so it is always full of cyclists on relatively fast road and TT bikes. I do use Strava, but segments are just a curiosity - check after the ride and "oh look, got a PB on the TriLondon 10 mile TT segment. That's nice." etc. Lots of poor awareness from pedestrians though - probably because with London Zoo there it brings a lot of tourists, and somehow the level of awareness just seems to hit the deck. Still have to be careful though.

Garmin have now got virtual partners to accompany you in live time while on segments. I believe that these have to be pre-loaded onto your device by the user though as opposed to an automatic function. That would put the blame firmly on the rider IMO.

ghogie91

I think its laughable to blame strava

How many other hundreds of thousands of us put the hammer down when we know were on a segment? Most of the people who are on strava have done this at some stage

but how many of us had crashes with cars/pedestrians during our quick segment... very few

I was cycling to work one morning in Feb, got hit by a car.. while not even recording my ride as it was just a commute to work, who do we ban in this instance, the car or the bike?

Strava is just the unfortunate denominator in this case, would they have banned a watch if this guy was simply timing himself without the use of strava? Nah

Chips Lovell

Didn't think there was much in the way of hills in Central Park.

07Lapierre

ghogie91 wrote: »

I think its laughable to blame strava



I was cycling to work one morning in Feb, got hit by a car.. while not even recording my ride as it was just a commute to work, who do we ban in this instance, the car or the bike?

You don't record your Commutes?

ThisRegard

lennymc wrote: »

Or, maybe it's time for people to accept personal responsibility and stop trying to blame everything else.

I agree, I was just being facetious.

lennymc

ThisRegard wrote: »

I agree, I was just being facetious.

ah right

QueensGael

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

Didn't think there was much in the way of hills in Central Park.

It's pretty hilly up at the Harlem end of Central Park

ghogie91

07Lapierre wrote: »

You don't record your Commutes?

No I dont bother, dont see it as training, just a groggy cranky head knowing I am getting outta bed early to cycle rather than the 10 minute drive up the motorway :pac:

Ole Rodrigo

It does raise the issue of how legitimate some segments are, I think. Or at least it did until I reailsed strava are in the business of selling datasets, just like every other free social media platform.

http://sourceable.net/smartphone-app-could-enhance-urban-infrastructure/

cython

ghogie91 wrote: »

No I dont bother, dont see it as training, just a groggy cranky head knowing I am getting outta bed early to cycle rather than the 10 minute drive up the motorway :pac:

While I wouldn't go out and buy a Garmin for the sole purpose of commuting, I have one anyway, and I use it on commutes in case something like the scenario discussed here were to arise: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/06/science/06accident.html

Perhaps similar to a helmet cam, but much less likely to be viewed as militant/provocative.

triggermortis

I record all my commutes and have some shared pedestrian and cycle paths on my route to work, some of which have segments on them (not mine). If there are no walkers around, I might put in more effort, but as it is close to the airport, this rarely happens.

ThisRegard

ror_74 wrote: »

It does raise the issue of how legitimate some segments are, I think. Or at least it did until I reailsed strava are in the business of selling datasets, just like every other free social media platform.

http://sourceable.net/smartphone-app-could-enhance-urban-infrastructure/

In fairness, Strava were approached by a city official in order to help said city, and realised how they can both turn a profit and help city planning. It's not like they're selling your habits to marketing companies.

Red Belly

Erm, isn't there rather a lot of presumption about blame/responsibility here when we don't have all the facts? The article begins with the emotive "he ploughed into her" meaning he collided with her, and the use of that phrase colours the whole article. He was injured too, and the unfortunate pedestrian (RIP) may have some responsibility as may a number of third parties. Not Strava though!

copey

Obey road rules

Ole Rodrigo

ThisRegard wrote: »

In fairness, Strava were approached by a city official in order to help said city, and realised how they can both turn a profit and help city planning. It's not like they're selling your habits to marketing companies.

I wouldn't mind either way. Couldn't see it being so accidental though.

Wishbone Ash

According to Strava he's 546th out of 7440 averaging 41.3km/h on the main 10k Central Park Segment.

The current KOM averaged 49.3 km/h (but it was probably a race as the first 15 on the leaderboard occur on the same date).

Cakewheels

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

According to Strava he's 546th out of 7440 averaging 41.3km/h on the main 10k Central Park Segment.

The current KOM averaged 49.3 km/h (but it was probably a race as the first 15 on the leaderboard occur on the same date).

To me that kind of speed doesn't seem appropriate in a park and near pedestrians. Parks should be relaxing places.

It says he was on the cycle lane and swerved to avoid some pedestrians and then hit this woman, so I don't know if she was somewhere else on the cycle lane, or if he had to swerve into a paved area or if she was on the road. But even if she or the other pedestrians were somewhere they shouldn't have been, cyclists should be at a speed where they can safety react to things like that.

As cyclists we expect drivers to use appropriate speeds for a particular area and to be responsible for the damage they cause to more vulnerable road users, so I think we need to show the same responsibility towards pedestrians.

I think gadgets in general but particularly combined with Strava etc does encourage higher speeds. It's all very well to talk about personal responsibility, but social norms are important too, and if you see a load of people on Strava have been whizzing around a park at top speed, it does tend to make it seem more normal, even before the competitive instinct kicks in. Some of the complaints about the Bristol to Bath cycle path were also about Strava users. I don't agree with expecting cyclists and pedestrians to share in urban areas, but where these paths do exist, I think Strava should definitely disable leader boards and maybe private segments as well.

Near the start of the summer I was just getting back into the buzz of having a drop bar road bike under me again and was flying down a hill on the way home after a short training spin (which had been in the country at fairly high speeds) when a bunch of kids whizzed out of an alleyway and out onto the main road in front of me (crossing to get to another estate). Avoided a collision but they shouldn't have come out so fast without looking. Was quite shook up and at first I found myself really angry at them, thinking that I could have gone over the handlebars and also that they were lucky I wasn't a car. However, with a little more reflection I realised my speed wasn't appropriate for an unpredictable urban environment and I was glad it happened as it taught me a good lesson.

Is there any translation of how the control a driver has over a vehicle at different speeds, particularly in relation to emergency stops and stopping distances, translates to road bike speeds? Does it all depend on the quality of the bike and skill of the rider or is there any approximates out there? On the one hand, there is less control due to the handlebar problem and not being in a seat belted car with huge break pedals at hand, and on the other there isn't the momentum of as many tonnes of metal to try to stop.

Wishbone Ash

The fact that bicycles are relatively silent vehicles must be a major factor in cyclist/pedestrian accidents. I'm sure many here who, like myself, regularly cycle in urban areas often experience pedestrians stepping out into a street without looking simply because they don't hear any 'traffic'.

lukegjpotter

This will happen in Phoenix Park at some stage. The pedestrians there don't give a fcuk where they walk.

godtabh

Another one?

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/bicycle-crash-kills-another-pedestrian-central-park

AmberGold

Good article.