Sick of Trying To Educate People...

ShaShaBear

So, someone's dog was killed in my local forest/park by an off-lead husky. The victim was being walked by an elderly woman and her granddaughter (who were understandably shocked, terrified and upset by the ordeal) and the husky was being walked by two non-nationals who refused to acknowledge error (or any understanding of English) at the incident.

Now, here is the problem. There is a hunt for the dog's head (so to speak) because he "has a taste for blood now" and is on the "wicked/dangerous dog list" and shouldn't be allowed to walk near people. Some have even claimed that he was trying to prove himself to his owners by killing the dog so they would "promote" him within the pack! And of course, the staple complaint - that there is only one type of aggression in dogs, and that dog will upgrade to shredding up kids next.
I've typed my little fingers to death trying to explain to people that your average house-dog (springer, terrier, collie, lab) is way more likely to bite than any of the other dogs on the restricted list (many they haven't even heard of, which goes to show how often they bite!).

When will people learn??
/endrant

Nody

ShaShaBear wrote: »

When will people learn??

Never; simply look at 9/11 (it's a government job!), Creationism (The bible says so!), Pack theory (I was told when I grew up that...) etc. Simply put people don't want to, or care enough, to educate themselves (there's simply to much data out there and to little time/interest to do it properly esp. with the Internetz giving you a gazillion views and then doing proper source review etc. is simply adding up to taking to much time unless you burn for the topic). Instead we fall back on what we feel/know because since I know it that has to be true...

Pumpkinseeds

I know what you mean. I phoned the guards the week before last as I saw a restricted breed dog running loose in the neighbourhood. I know a lot of the restricted breeds have lovely temperments, but they shouldn't be running loose. The guards reported it to the dog warden and came straight up themselves, but it had gone before they got here. I saw later that morning that someones rabbit and guinea pig had been killed around about the same time as I'd seen the dog.

Hooked

When will people learn???

Simple. When the punishments are given out thick and harsh!

Off lead dogs, dog fouling, no licences... The list goes on... People don't worry or care about the 'law' as it's not enforced.

The poor poor dog owners. My guess would be that the dog was small, husky probably had high prey drive and we all know how it ended.

The owners of the Husky should be reprimanded... But they won't be. The dog will get PTS. Abs they'll be free to buy another. No one learns.

And don't get me started on collars, tags and micro chipping. The amount of 'distraught' pet owners, bereft because (insert pet name here) is missing from the family home... If you love it so much, why isn't it tagged or chipped? Animal welfare Facebook pages overflowing with dogs they can't reunite. Utter stupidity...

ShaShaBear

Hooked wrote: »

When will people learn???

Simple. When the punishments are given out thick and harsh!

Off lead dogs, dog fouling, no licences... The list goes on... People don't worry or care about the 'law' as it's not enforced.

The poor poor dog owners. My guess would be that the dog was small, husky probably had high prey drive abs we all know how it ended.

The owners of the Husky should be reprimanded... But they won't be. The dog will get PTS. Abs they'll be free to buy another. No one learns.

100% right Hooked, little Bichon Frise. Might as well have been a fluffy rabbit to a Husky! Although I have tried explaining to people that a lot of house-pet terrier breeds have the same urge to kill small furries. I even pointed out the ever HUGE Great Dane, and why people thought it wasn't on the list. Many were shocked it wasn't and it just went to prove how pointless the list is!

Hooked

The RB list is completely pointless IMO.

A restricted breeders list... Now, that would be an idea!

Or a restricted 'owners' list.

average_runner

ShaShaBear wrote: »

So, someone's dog was killed in my local forest/park by an off-lead husky. The victim was being walked by an elderly woman and her granddaughter (who were understandably shocked, terrified and upset by the ordeal) and the husky was being walked by two non-nationals who refused to acknowledge error (or any understanding of English) at the incident.

Now, here is the problem. There is a hunt for the dog's head (so to speak) because he "has a taste for blood now" and is on the "wicked/dangerous dog list" and shouldn't be allowed to walk near people. Some have even claimed that he was trying to prove himself to his owners by killing the dog so they would "promote" him within the pack! And of course, the staple complaint - that there is only one type of aggression in dogs, and that dog will upgrade to shredding up kids next.
I've typed my little fingers to death trying to explain to people that your average house-dog (springer, terrier, collie, lab) is way more likely to bite than any of the other dogs on the restricted list (many they haven't even heard of, which goes to show how often they bite!).

When will people learn??
/endrant

Of course people will call for its head, if he did that to a dog for no reason, is there any reason not to think he wont attack a small child?

The owners of the dog are a disgrace for allowing the dog to be off the leash like that.

Rightwing

ShaShaBear wrote: »

So, someone's dog was killed in my local forest/park by an off-lead husky. The victim was being walked by an elderly woman and her granddaughter (who were understandably shocked, terrified and upset by the ordeal) and the husky was being walked by two non-nationals who refused to acknowledge error (or any understanding of English) at the incident.

Now, here is the problem. There is a hunt for the dog's head (so to speak) because he "has a taste for blood now" and is on the "wicked/dangerous dog list" and shouldn't be allowed to walk near people. Some have even claimed that he was trying to prove himself to his owners by killing the dog so they would "promote" him within the pack! And of course, the staple complaint - that there is only one type of aggression in dogs, and that dog will upgrade to shredding up kids next.
I've typed my little fingers to death trying to explain to people that your average house-dog (springer, terrier, collie, lab) is way more likely to bite than any of the other dogs on the restricted list (many they haven't even heard of, which goes to show how often they bite!).

When will people learn??
/endrant

Somehow I doubt that very much. There's a simple reason these dogs should be on leads and muzzled. Let's start guessing what the reason could be.

andreac

Rightwing wrote: »

Somehow I doubt that very much. There's a simple reason these dogs should be on leads and muzzled. Let's start guessing what the reason could be.

You obviously don't have a clue about the restricted breeds list or have any experience with any of the dogs on the list because if you did then you wouldn't have made such a comment.

Whispered

Rightwing wrote: »

Somehow I doubt that very much. There's a simple reason these dogs should be on leads and muzzled. Let's start guessing what the reason could be.

Why don't you educate us?

Rightwing

Whispered wrote: »

Why don't you educate us?

There are plenty of teachers in primary school getting very paid for that. If you are stuck, I suggest contacting an infant teacher, that's the level we are dealing with here.

andreac

Rightwing wrote: »

There are plenty of teachers in primary school getting very paid for that. If you are stuck, I suggest contacting an infant teacher, that's the level we are dealing with here.

What is this simple reason as you put it, as to why these dogs are on the list?

andreac

Rightwing wrote: »

Somehow I doubt that very much. There's a simple reason these dogs should be on leads and muzzled. Let's start guessing what the reason could be.

I suggest you have a read of some of the articles and information on this page and educate yourself a little bit on the whole restricted breeds list.

https://www.facebook.com/unmuzzleireland

Pretzill

The point is mute though. A dog killed another dog regardless of breed restriction that's what happened. And the consequences will be as dire for the dog who killed. Not for the owners of the dog which is ridiculous. But if the RB dog had been muzzled there would be two dogs still alive. That's the bottom line regardless of trying to educate people why restricted breeds shouldn't be restricted, owners of any dog needs to be educated in how to control their dog -

However trying to get the average person to understand why a law is neither fair or equal, enforced or just simply inaccurate when the law itself largely adds to the ignorance and fear surrounding certain breeds is pretty difficult. It's not about educating the general public it's about educating all dog owners of any breed.

Very sorry for the owners of the dog who was killed that must have been devestating.

ShaShaBear

Pretzill wrote: »

The point is mute though. A dog killed another dog regardless of breed restriction that's what happened. And the consequences will be as dire for the dog who killed. Not for the owners of the dog which is ridiculous. But if the RB dog had been muzzled there would be two dogs still alive. That's the bottom line regardless of trying to educate people why restricted breeds shouldn't be restricted, owners of any dog needs to be educated in how to control their dog -

However trying to get the average person to understand why a law is neither fair or equal, enforced or just simply inaccurate when the law itself largely adds to the ignorance and fear surrounding certain breeds is pretty difficult. It's not about educating the general public it's about educating all dog owners of any breed.

Very sorry for the owners of the dog who was killed that must have been devestating.

I imagine it was horrifying. But the elderly woman and little girl who were present should not be scaremongered into thinking that only breeds on this list can be dangerous. She pet my dog on a walk once saying he was lovely and polite, but if I had let him off the lead, he also would have shredded that dog to pieces. Doesn't mean he was going to kill children next :eek:
A muzzle wouldn't have been needed if the dog were on a lead as all dogs in the area should be.

Although why anyone would walk a dog with a high prey drive in a forest full of squirrels and rabbits with no lead is beyond me :rolleyes:

ShaShaBear

average_runner wrote: »

Of course people will call for its head, if he did that to a dog for no reason, is there any reason not to think he wont attack a small child?

The owners of the dog are a disgrace for allowing the dog to be off the leash like that.

Of course there is, because he doesn't look at a child and think, oooh - that's clearly a small, hairy rabbit, I had better kill it. Dogs don't attack humans without reason. That's a fact. Dogs fight all the time, among their own species. Even well-socialised ones can form a dislike to another dog and attack. Just like people do. It is equally likely that the husky could have been attacked and killed by another dog on that walk.

average_runner

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Of course there is, because he doesn't look at a child and think, oooh - that's clearly a small, hairy rabbit, I had better kill it. Dogs don't attack humans without reason. That's a fact. Dogs fight all the time, among their own species. Even well-socialised ones can form a dislike to another dog and attack. Just like people do. It is equally likely that the husky could have been attacked and killed by another dog on that walk.

Thats bull anyhow, as i can prove it, it happened to myself. Neighbours dog went for my leg one day as walking by, he was on the lead.

I have seen dogs going for joggers as they run by also and not provoked. Just go to Griffeen park in Lucan!

Anyone that 100% trusts a dog, should be allowed to be a owner!

Now i love dogs, had two pedigree boxers until old age took them.

boomerang

I don't think Huskys are on the RB list?

andreac

boomerang wrote: »

I don't think Huskys are on the RB list?

They aren't.

Hooked

boomerang wrote: »

I don't think Huskys are on the RB list?

They most certainly are not. A few of their owners should be though!!!

Pretzill

andreac wrote: »

They aren't.

Well that makes the point even more mute - if there was no need for the husky to be muzzled by law, it's a dog attack on another dog - and if the owner of the dog that died has any rights (don't know if they do?) they probably can ask for the husky to be pts - but the owners of the husky can equally argue that it shouldn't be. Inteferring though well meaning neighbours won't help either party. As shasha says having a dog who will tear a rabbit to shreds whilst off lead (because that's what they do) would make an owner disinclined to have them off lead whilst walking in an area where you may encounter something that resembles a rabbit - it would me anyhow.

DBB

Rightwing wrote: »

There are plenty of teachers in primary school getting very paid for that. If you are stuck, I suggest contacting an infant teacher, that's the level we are dealing with here.

Rightwing, seeing as you clearly want to contribute nothing to the discussion other than talking down to everyone, you are not to post in this thread any more.
Thanks,
DBB

DBB

average_runner wrote: »

I have seen dogs going for joggers as they run by also and not provoked. Just go to Griffeen park in Lucan!

In fairness average_runner, it's not true to say that a dog chasing a jogger is not provoked, because it is.
Now, that is not to say that the jogger deliberately tries to goad the dog into chasing and biting them, of course they donn't. But, to some dogs, joggers can be a little bit scary (or indeed, any strangers approaching them), and they deal with this by chasing the perceived threat away. It's normal canine behaviour to try to get rid of something that scares it.
So to the dog, it is provoked.
I'm saying this because to say such chasing and biting is unprovoked suggests that there's no reason for it, and that there's nothing that can be done about it. There is, and there is
Again, please don't read this as me saying that the jogger provokes the dog deliberately. In most cases, the jogger does provoke the dog, but it is unwittingly.
The blame for this unacceptable behaviour lies squarely on the owner. So many owners are in complete denial about how troublesome their dogs are to others, and have no concept of making sure their dog is never put into the position where it can cause a nuisance, or cause harm. That's not the dog's fault, and it's certainly not the unfortunate jogger's fault either!

average_runner

DBB wrote: »

In fairness average_runner, it's not true to say that a dog chasing a jogger is not provoked, because it is.
Now, that is not to say that the jogger deliberately tries to goad the dog into chasing and biting them, of course they donn't. But, to some dogs, joggers can be a little bit scary (or indeed, any strangers approaching them), and they deal with this by chasing the perceived threat away. It's normal canine behaviour to try to get rid of something that scares it.
So to the dog, it is provoked.
I'm saying this because to say such chasing and biting is unprovoked suggests that there's no reason for it, and that there's nothing that can be done about it. There is, and there is
Again, please don't read this as me saying that the jogger provokes the dog deliberately. In most cases, the jogger does provoke the dog, but it is unwittingly.
The blame for this unacceptable behaviour lies squarely on the owner. So many owners are in complete denial about how troublesome their dogs are to others, and have no concept of making sure their dog is never put into the position where it can cause a nuisance, or cause harm. That's not the dog's fault, and it's certainly not the unfortunate jogger's fault either!

Usually down to a bad owner. I was running before and this dog ran towards me and snapped at my ankle, i moved back but twisted it badly. Owner came over and started to hit the dog with the stick, i had to shout at the owner not to do it, he then gave me grief saying none of my business!!:rolleyes:

ShaShaBear

average_runner wrote: »

Usually down to a bad owner. I was running before and this dog ran towards me and snapped at my ankle, i moved back but twisted it badly. Owner came over and started to hit the dog with the stick, i had to shout at the owner not to do it, he then gave me grief saying none of my business!!:rolleyes:

And do you think that poor dog maybe associated that bad beating with someone running past her, and thus decided the next time someone did it, he/she'd try and scare them off before he/she got another slap? A dog is smart, but not smart enough to realise that the punishment was because she did something wrong rather than simple pain because of something that happened.

Tranceypoo

average_runner wrote: »

Usually down to a bad owner. I was running before and this dog ran towards me and snapped at my ankle, i moved back but twisted it badly. Owner came over and started to hit the dog with the stick, i had to shout at the owner not to do it, he then gave me grief saying none of my business!!:rolleyes:

Christ that sounds horrible!

If someone jogs or cycles past my dogs they would lunge at them and possibly bite, that's why I don't wear headphones when walking the dogs and if there is a jogger or cyclist approaching I pull the dogs right in beside me and wait for the person to pass, I usually get a surprised 'thanks' or nod/smile from them as well!

DBB

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Christ that sounds horrible!

If someone jogs or cycles past my dogs they would lunge at them and possibly bite, that's why I don't wear headphones when walking the dogs and if there is a jogger or cyclist approaching I pull the dogs right in beside me and wait for the person to pass, I usually get a surprised 'thanks' or nod/smile from them as well!

My pooches wouldn't be bothered with joggers or any passers-by, but I still stick their leads on as joggers approach, just to reassure them that these big dogs are no threat to them. Going to a teeny bit of bother creates a nice bit of goodwill, I think

ShaShaBear

DBB wrote: »

My pooches wouldn't be bothered with joggers or any passers-by, but I still stick their leads on as joggers approach, just to reassure them that these big dogs are no threat to them. Going to a teeny bit of bother creates a nice bit of goodwill, I think

Had to pull Lindy in nice and close a few times on her walk today to let joggers past. And women with prams (even though I had mine out). And kids. And pretty much everyone. Do whippets have some sort of menace status symbol I haven't heard of? Yeah, she's fast. But she's likely running in the other direction :pac:
But I agree, it's just good manners to move your dog out of the way. Much easier than a stand-off/confrontation/potential incident.

Toulouse

Unfortunately they do.

People have a lot of misconceptions around sighthounds in general which is a shame because it's utterly undeserved.

I always have my greyhound girl on lead but she does a happy dance whenever we meet someone on walks because she thinks everyone is her friend. Quite often it makes the other person smile because she's a wiggling, jiggling, smiling jumble of legs and nose.

Some people give her funny looks though, just because she's a greyhound and I feel really sorry for those ignorant people.

ShaShaBear

Toulouse wrote: »

Unfortunately they do.

People have a lot of misconceptions around sighthounds in general which is a shame because it's utterly undeserved.

I always have my greyhound girl on lead but she does a happy dance whenever we meet someone on walks because she thinks everyone is her friend. Quite often it makes the other person smile because she's a wiggling, jiggling, smiling jumble of legs and nose.

Some people give her funny looks though, just because she's a greyhound and I feel really sorry for those ignorant people.

I can say honestly that they weren't a breed I would consider before I started to foster Lindy, but I'm head over heels with her now! At the same time, if I met one on a walk (that appeared to be a pet), I would have no problem stopping to make friends! Lindy has started to do that dance too. She looks ridiculous! Although I met three people on walks yesterday, only one was full of smiles for her, the other two seemed to think we must be cruel because she is all skin and bones...

kylith

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Christ that sounds horrible!

If someone jogs or cycles past my dogs they would lunge at them and possibly bite, that's why I don't wear headphones when walking the dogs and if there is a jogger or cyclist approaching I pull the dogs right in beside me and wait for the person to pass, I usually get a surprised 'thanks' or nod/smile from them as well!

I pull mine in too, not because they have any problem with joggers, but because dogs are unpredictable - there's no telling when they may decide to veer under someone's feet in order to smell an interesting-looking leaf and that could lead to injury for them and the jogger. I occasionally get a 'thanks' too.

As for the chasing, isn't it common knowledge that many dogs have a tendency to chase something that runs, not because they have been deliberately provoked by the runner but because chasing something that's running is instinctive for many breeds. That's why I tell my niblings to be quiet and still around strange dogs; if you scream and run they'll chase because that's just what dogs do.

Toulouse wrote: »

Unfortunately they do.

People have a lot of misconceptions around sighthounds in general which is a shame because it's utterly undeserved.

I always have my greyhound girl on lead but she does a happy dance whenever we meet someone on walks because she thinks everyone is her friend. Quite often it makes the other person smile because she's a wiggling, jiggling, smiling jumble of legs and nose.

A friend of mine has a mastiff that does that. There's no cure for the blues like seeing a 60 kilo monster do a wiggle dance

average_runner

ShaShaBear wrote: »

And do you think that poor dog maybe associated that bad beating with someone running past her, and thus decided the next time someone did it, he/she'd try and scare them off before he/she got another slap? A dog is smart, but not smart enough to realise that the punishment was because she did something wrong rather than simple pain because of something that happened.

I actually didnt run by it, it ran from a good 100m to get at me !

average_runner

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Christ that sounds horrible!

If someone jogs or cycles past my dogs they would lunge at them and possibly bite, that's why I don't wear headphones when walking the dogs and if there is a jogger or cyclist approaching I pull the dogs right in beside me and wait for the person to pass, I usually get a surprised 'thanks' or nod/smile from them as well!

Would always say thanks if some one makes the effort with their dog, but the jogger has to make the effort also by trying to go the other side if possible

Whispered

There is a guy who walks around our estate with a reactive husky on a choke chain. My own boy can be reactive but we work hard on it.

A while back I was walking down a lane and saw the other guy approaching so back tracked a bit, pulled my fella in and started doing sit, look etc. It was all going well, he was ignoring the other dog, focused on me until the other owner stopped to watch!!!! With his poor dog nearly hanging himself trying to get to my boy. Of course Harley's concentration didn't last long and it ended up with him pulling his dog away and me having to pull my boy. Since then when he spots the husky coming it's impossible to get his attention. Such a waste of a lot of training.

ShaShaBear

Whispered wrote: »

There is a guy who walks around our estate with a reactive husky on a choke chain. My own boy can be reactive but we work hard on it.

A while back I was walking down a lane and saw the other guy approaching so back tracked a bit, pulled my fella in and started doing sit, look etc. It was all going well, he was ignoring the other dog, focused on me until the other owner stopped to watch!!!! With his poor dog nearly hanging himself trying to get to my boy. Of course Harley's concentration didn't last long and it ended up with him pulling his dog away and me having to pull my boy. Since then when he spots the husky coming it's impossible to get his attention. Such a waste of a lot of training.

I had the same problem with Shadow, he was soooo terrified of other dogs and was extremely reactive to the point of aggression when he saw another dog coming. I spent months when I lived in Dundalk walking him through parks with dogs and distracting him and he was almost completely desensitised when he happened across two terriers off-lead who attacked him. I got a bad scratch on the leg from lashing out to get them off him and the owner, who wasn't even holding leads said "What sort of knacker kicks a wee dog like that, and you should have a muzzle on that wild beast of yours!"
Didn't even entertain her, seeing as last I checked, collies were not wild beasts?

Joeseph Balls

ShaShaBear wrote: »

that your average house-dog (springer, terrier, collie, lab) is way more likely to bite than any of the other dogs on the restricted list

TBH, i cant understand this at all?:o
Surely it depends on the dog regardless of what breed they are? RB or not.
I dont think it's a fair statement.

Whispered

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

TBH, i cant understand this at all?:o
Surely it depends on the dog regardless of what breed they are? RB or not.
I dont think it's a fair statement.

I'd say it does depend on the individual dog, whether they are more likely to bite but in the case of the RB's most people are extra careful because of the stigma attached.

It's another issue with having a restricted list - people who don't know better can be lulled into a false sense of security because the dog their child is currently with isn't on the "dangerous" list.

Joeseph Balls

Whispered wrote: »

I'd say it does depend on the individual dog, whether they are more likely to bite but in the case of the RB's most people are extra careful because of the stigma attached.

It's another issue with having a restricted list - people who don't know better can be lulled into a false sense of security because the dog their child is currently with isn't on the "dangerous" list.

Totally get that. I just didn't think the statement was fair or fair to use in the situation whilst trying to educate people. Could completely have the opposite effect on people (non dog people).

ShaShaBear

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

Totally get that. I just didn't think the statement was fair or fair to use in the situation whilst trying to educate people. Could completely have the opposite effect on people (non dog people).

It was based on a study done in UCD Veterinary hospital based on reported dog bites in Ireland and what breeds were the culprits. Out of them all, only one restricted breed was on the list, a GSD. None of the more "ferocious" breeds featured in the study results. So factual, but I think the bigger problem is that people think that only breeds on the list have the potential to bite, and that any dog not on that list is fine to let off the lead, terrorise other dogs, chase cars/bicycles/joggers and get harassed by young children and toddlers.

I do feel it is necessary to point out because a lot of people think that is an exclusive list for specific dogs and that the danger doesn't apply to other breeds. The mentality that a dog is good with other dogs because it doesn't attack them on sight, or that they are good with kids because they lie there and take a slap/kick/tug/nip really needs to go. The average lab is probably just as likely to get fed up with that treatment as a rottie.

Again, not the intent to "frighten" people, but it annoys me even more when people go for a breed thinking that they'll be grand, when in reality they are equally likely to develop a distaste for other dogs or children.