Atheism in popular culture: The Good Wife

fisgon

Was watching the American show The Good Wife last week, and again the atheism of the main character, Alicia Florrick, came up.


Good Wife Spoiler (season and episode range unknown - I'll find out)

It happens in the wake of the shooting dead of her ex-lover, Will. Alicia's daughter, Grace, who is a teenage Christian convert,

[someone] tries to make her feel better by telling her that

Will

is now "in heaven." . .. tells her that she simply doesn't believe that, or in a god that would allow such things to happen. . . . admits that she is only trying to make her feel better, and asks . . . if not believing in god is any better than believing. And . . . replies, "no, but it's truer."

The Good Wife is an interesting example as it is a big, Emmy-award winning show, and has an atheist as a central, sympathetic character, something I can't imagine happening ten or fifteen years ago.

I wonder if there are any other examples of atheism or non-belief being portrayed positively in mainstream popular culture, and if it is becoming more common?

PopePalpatine

One example that comes from the top of my head is "Orange is the New Black". I've probably watched a total of five minutes of it, but I know that the main character's an atheist, and that causes conflict with some of the more devout inmates.

vibe666

fisgon wrote: »

I wonder if there are any other examples of atheism or non-belief being portrayed positively in mainstream popular culture, and if it is becoming more common?

this guy!



actually no, probably not.

krudler

True Detective's Rust was more of a nihilist than an atheist but you can't argue with the guy's reasoning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmvMrG519TQ

Great show too btw.

Hotblack Desiato

Nothing wrong with being a nihilist, like materialism (and atheism for that matter) most people in Ireland, if they know anything about it at all, have only seen it through a highly distorted catholic lens.

endacl

Somebody got shot? Spoiler alert!

:mad:

Calibos

The Americans about Soviet sleeper agents in Reagans America. Their young teenage daughter american born and raised as a christian convert which does not go down well with the atheist commie mom and pop. They are quite sympathetic characters. Fox viewers must love that show

Brian Shanahan

endacl wrote: »

Somebody got shot? Spoiler alert!

:mad:

Yeah, JR did.

expectationlost

Calibos wrote: »

The Americans about Soviet sleeper agents in Reagans America. Their young teenage daughter american born and raised as a christian convert which does not go down well with the atheist commie mom and pop. They are quite sympathetic characters. Fox viewers must love that show

sympathetic spies and assassins?

Turtwig

Non-religious types are very common as leads for shows e.g X-Files, Mentalist, House, Numb3rs, CSI etc. They're usually flawed though and the shows often have a few episodes dedicated to shown the "mystical" side of the universe. For example, the main character of Numb3rs is a staunch skeptic and atheist, yet the show goes cringeworthily out of its way to balance psychics and science. It's probably a trope of television at this stage. Pseudoscience must have balance.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Nothing wrong with being a nihilist.

The Dude may not agree..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AEMiz6rcxc

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah, nihilism = mindless violence, in the same way materialism = lust for wealth, and atheism = aimlessness and amorality

GLaDOS

Metalocalypse covered Atheism, Agnosticism and Nihlism quite rationally

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNoQ5NY7Z_8

fisgon

endacl wrote: »

Somebody got shot? Spoiler alert!

:mad:

Spoiler actually added to my post by mod, I think. Really have to wonder why.

Seriously though, this mania for spoiler alerts is going a bit too far. It seems that the greatest crime you can commit on the internet is revealing the plot of a programme or film that has already been shown. Is there a statute of limitations on spoilers? This show was shown in the US months ago, the whole series was shown on E4 and finished earlier this year, and the RTE episode I referred to was on last week.

Not only that, this is not the TV forum, it's Atheism and Agnosticism! Does this spoiler fundamentalism apply to every forum on Boards? The world will not end if you accidentally learn a plot point of a piece of fiction before having the opportunity to see it for yourself.

endacl

fisgon wrote: »

Spoiler actually added to my post by mod, I think. Really have to wonder why.

Seriously though, this mania for spoiler alerts is going a bit too far. It seems that the greatest crime you can commit on the internet is revealing the plot of a programme or film that has already been shown. Is there a statute of limitations on spoilers? This show was shown in the US months ago, the whole series was shown on E4 and finished earlier this year, and the RTE episode I referred to was on last week.

Not only that, this is not the TV forum, it's Atheism and Agnosticism! Does this spoiler fundamentalism apply to every forum on Boards? The world will not end if you accidentally learn a plot point of a piece of fiction before having the opportunity to see it for yourself.

I know. I wasn't being serious...

vibe666

it's crazy that it's deemed so necessary.

like when we found out that star wars episodes five and six

darth vader

was -

luke skywalkers dad

and then he

died saving him

from the

emperor

and his

lightening fingers

before they

saved the universe

and all had a

massive party

to

celebrate

.

I'd just like to be able to speak about these things openly without censorship.

legspin

vibe666 wrote: »

it's crazy that it's deemed so necessary.

like when we found out that star wars episodes five and six

darth vader

was -

luke skywalkers dad

and then he

died saving him

from the

emperor

and his

lightening fingers

before they

saved the universe

and all had a

massive party

to

celebrate

.

I'd just like to be able to speak about these things openly without censorship.

The power has finally gone to Turt's head

Brian Shanahan

legspin wrote: »

The power has finally gone to Turt's head

I'm suprised he didn't spoiler my last post, surely there's somebody out there on the interwebs who doesn't know how Dallas went.

Should have gone with: Keven Spacey is Kaiser Sauzee!

MrPudding

The cripple is Kaiser Soze.

MrP

Turtwig

legspin wrote: »

The power has finally gone to Turt's head

I just added in that the source was Star Wars in case people were afraid to read all the spoilers as Vibe666 original post read like a bunch of spoilers but nobody knew what the spoilers were of unless they read them.

This is the era of binge watching. I think it's just a good courtesy to let folks experience shows the same way original viewers see them. It's not that hard to put the plot twists and major points in spoilers.

Still have to convince some folks to watch the Wire, Orphan Black, Orange is the New Black etc.

Hotblack Desiato

Soylent Green is people. Also I am Spartacus. And the Planet of the Apes was Earth.

fisgon

endacl wrote: »

I know. I wasn't being serious...

Fair enough, missed the irony. Though the point still holds, a mod "spoilered" my post, put in the black

spoiler blocks

that I had obviously left out. Seems like overkill.

endacl

vibe666 wrote: »

it's crazy that it's deemed so necessary.

like when we found out that star wars episodes five and six

darth vader

was -

luke skywalkers dad

and then he

died saving him

from the

emperor

and his

lightening fingers

before they

saved the universe

and all had a

massive party

to

celebrate

.

I'd just like to be able to speak about these things openly without censorship.

They didn't

save the universe

. They

saved the galaxy

.

!

endacl

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Should have gone with: Keven Spacey is Kaiser Sauzee!

Janey Mackers! He played Keyser Söze too!

Calibos

.......It was his childhood sled

iguana

expectationlost wrote: »

sympathetic spies and assassins?

Yup, The Ameericans is a great show. There's a great scene where the KGB couple are on a serious mission and all they can think about is how their daughter said grace before dinner earlier that evening. "She was praying Philip! Praying!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:"

Turtwig wrote: »

Non-religious types are very common as leads for shows e.g X-Files, Mentalist, House, Numb3rs, CSI etc. They're usually flawed though and the shows often have a few episodes dedicated to shown the "mystical" side of the universe.

The same was true for True Detective. By the end

Rust has a spiritual experience while near death and seems a happier person for it.

Hotblack Desiato

iguana wrote: »

Yup, The Ameericans is a great show. There's a great scene where the KGB couple are on a serious mission and all they can think about is how their daughter said grace before dinner earlier that evening. "She was praying Philip! Praying!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:"

In reality they'd be glad to blend in and be 'normal', 'average', and Xtian daughter would help them fit in and be accepted n'est-ce pas?

Sin Eater

I feel like any discussion of atheists in pop culture would be missing something if Henry Drummond (Spencer Tracey) from Inherit The Wind wasn't mentioned. A great movie, inspired by the Scopes Monkey trial.

P_1

Also as a friendly FYI season 6 of the Good Wife goes on air tonight in the States. I'd wager that some sites that tend to kick ass might well have it up from about 4am

PopePalpatine

Would Tyrion Lannister be a good example? At the very least, he's skeptical about the supernatural...although then again, Game of Thrones might not be the best example.

iguana

Babylon 5 was a good one. Much of the show revolved around the spiritual/religious beliefs and prophecies of the various alien races, particularly the Minbari. But as the story progressed all of the religious myths are eventually given rational explanations. There is also a storyline in the first season where the different races are having a celebration of their planets' religions and Cmdr Sinclair isn't sure how to best show human religion. In the end he introduces the alien ambassadors to numerous people of different beliefs but starts with an atheist.

Brian Shanahan

iguana wrote: »

Babylon 5 was a good one. Much of the show revolved around the spiritual/religious beliefs and prophecies of the various alien races, particularly the Minbari. But as the story progressed all of the religious myths are eventually given rational explanations. There is also a storyline in the first season where the different races are having a celebration of their planets' religions and Cmdr Sinclair isn't sure how to best show human religion. In the end he introduces the alien ambassadors to numerous people of different beliefs but starts with an atheist.

JMS is a well known atheist, who likes to explore the philosophy behind religions. One of the best passages on the creation of religion was uttered by his creation the Narn messianic figure G'Kar:

“If I take a lamp and shine it toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth ... for understanding. Too often, we assume that the light on the wall is God, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the sense of revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search — who does not bring a lantern— sees nothing.”
“What we perceive as God is the by-product of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light ... pure and unblemished ... not understanding that it comes from us. Sometimes we stand in front of the light and assume that we are the center of the universe — God looks astonishingly like we do — or we turn to look at our shadow and assume that all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose, which is to use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty and in all its flaws; and in so doing, better understand the world around us.”

On the other hand we've got rubbish like Star Trek:Voyager's Sacred Ground, whose temporisation was rightly ripped a new one in this review.

Zubeneschamali

Bones in the show of that name is an atheist, and there's a certain amount of back-and-forth with her partner Booth, who is Catholic.

Star Trek is all atheistic.

Brian Shanahan

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Star Trek is all atheistic.

Actually there is a dichotomy within Star Trek. Roddenberry himself was an atheist, and when he was alive he tended towards expressing that atheism within the show itself; more forcefully in TNG and early DS9 than in TOS, mainly due to fears over syndication (for example see "Who mourns for Adonias" the second season episode where they meet Apollo and openly profess belief in a single deity). But after his death the show turned to a wishy-washy new agey spiritualism, as best exemplified in the episode of Voyager I already mentioned or the film Insurrection.

Cabaal

I find the theme for Caprica interesting, its not atheism...far from it.,
But they distrust anyone that believes in Monotheism,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caprica_%28TV_series%29#Concept

One of the show's main driving points is religious belief. Colonial culture is influenced by mainstream Polytheism, the religious belief in multiple gods which is characteristic of the ancient Greek and Roman traditions. Characters are shown praying to Athena and Jupiter, Greek and Roman deities, respectively.

Monotheism (belief in one god only) is depicted as a fringe cult from the planet Gemenon, one regarded as disruptive and potentially hostile. The character Clarice Willow and her family are clandestine members of that cult.

Its an interesting concept for a change

iguana

The Battlestar Galactica reboot seemed a good example at first, despite the polytheism of most of the humans, Adama was an atheist and if making a speech where prayer might be called for, he would invite those who had a belief to pray if they wished, but it was clear he wasn't one of those people. But by the end all of the mysteries of the series boiled down to

God did it.

It was the polar opposite of Babylon 5.

robindch

Sin Eater wrote: »

[...] Henry Drummond (Spencer Tracey) from Inherit The Wind wasn't mentioned. A great movie, inspired by the Scopes Monkey trial.

An excellent movie indeed - well worth seeking out.

Nick Park

Sin Eater wrote: »

I feel like any discussion of atheists in pop culture would be missing something if Henry Drummond (Spencer Tracey) from Inherit The Wind wasn't mentioned. A great movie, inspired by the Scopes Monkey trial.

At the risk of reopening a recurrent debate, Drummond is portrayed as an agnostic rather than an atheist.

Hotblack Desiato

Almost all athiests are agnostics so it's a false dichotomy.

CptMackey

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Almost all athiests are agnostics so it's a false dichotomy.

How so?
I don't need to prove that God doesn't exist as that can be proved without evidence can be dismissed without evidence .

Delirium

CptMackey wrote: »

How so?
I don't need to prove that God doesn't exist as that can be proved without evidence can be dismissed without evidence .

Like so.

fisgon

I might add Iain M. Banks's series of Culture sci-fi novels, still popular culture though not TV or film. No doubt many here familiar with these, I've seen quite a few Boards user names inspired by the names of ships in his novels.

The Culture is basically an atheistic civilization, and frequently battles other cultures with fundamentalist religious belief systems. This is a common tension in the books. For anyone who hasn't read them, they are works of sci-fi genius.

jill_valentine

X Files is not a great example. Religion is the sole context when Mulder and Scully's dynamic is reversed, she's a sort of battle scarred Catholic, which he treats with skepticism.

Brian Shanahan

fisgon wrote: »

I might add Iain M. Banks's series of Culture sci-fi novels, still popular culture though not TV or film. No doubt many here familiar with these, I've seen quite a few Boards user names inspired by the names of ships in his novels.

The Culture is basically an atheistic civilization, and frequently battles other cultures with fundamentalist religious belief systems. This is a common tension in the books. For anyone who hasn't read them, they are works of sci-fi genius.

If we're going to expand to books I cannot extol the virtues of the Discworld series enough (being a Pterry nut and all), plus it has the virtue of being partially adapted to the goggle box. I've heard and read on quite a few occasions that the book Small Gods has lead quite a few people on the road to atheism.

legspin

My favourite T.V. Cop, Chief Inspector Morse was a staunch atheist.

Peregrinus

legspin wrote: »

My favourite T.V. Cop, Chief Inspector Morse was a staunch atheist.

As was Colin Dexter, the author who created him.

Interestingly, though, Morse is not an especially attractive atheist - or, at least, his atheism doesn't contribute to his attractions. On the plus side, he is intelligent and he is virtuous. On the other hand, he is grumpy, he is angry, he has difficulty sustaining or even entering into relationships of intimacy, he's a borderline alcoholic and his primary sexual expression is his appetite for pornography. (This last is apparent in the novels, but not in the TV series). He's a flawed human being, in short, and not a very happy one.

Morse's sidekick Lewis is also an atheist, interestingly, but apparently a much happier one. He has a successful marriage and family life, and a much better work-life balance than Morse. He's not a thoughtful atheist like Morse; he's just not that interested in religion.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Morse's sidekick Lewis is also an atheist, interestingly, but apparently a much happier one. He has a successful marriage and family life, and a much better work-life balance than Morse. He's not a thoughtful atheist like Morse; he's just not that interested in religion.

And Lewis' sidekick Hathaway is the often conflicted and deeply religious Christian who never completed his time in the seminary, and seems to struggle with his homosexuality. A fantastic combination IMHO, well played by both actors.

fisgon

A great line in a Sufjan Steven's song called Casimir Pulanski Day, about someone whose friend/lover gets cancer...

"Tuesday night at the Bible study
We lift our hands and pray over your body
But nothing ever happens".

RDM_83 again

fisgon wrote: »

I might add Iain M. Banks's series of Culture sci-fi novels, still popular culture though not TV or film. No doubt many here familiar with these, I've seen quite a few Boards user names inspired by the names of ships in his novels.

The Culture is basically an atheistic civilization, and frequently battles other cultures with fundamentalist religious belief systems. This is a common tension in the books. For anyone who hasn't read them, they are works of sci-fi genius.

I don't know about that, I think I've read every Ian M.Banks (not every Ian Banks though ) and too me what makes the Culture Series simply good space opera rather than the more serious end of Science Fiction is that he never really dwells on how the Culture actually functions on a deeper level as a society. (I may be wrong about this but I think there is a few allusions to things like the Minds possibly controlling human society and throwaway lines about how outside observers don't understand how the Culture functions but it does anyway).
I think Science Fiction is nearly always improved when an author isn't building a universe the way he or she would like things to turn out, my theory is that this is because if its writing about something you don't like the idea of forces you to think about how such a system would actual come into being whereas if you 'believe' in something you write about there wouldn't be that challenge.

Since its this forum I would recommend Faith in Our Fathers by Philip K.Dick. Its nice (by nice I mean good, its actually nasty) short read who's ideas are probably mildly uncomfortable to both Atheists and Theists alike.

Brian Shanahan

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I don't know about that, I think I've read every Ian M.Banks (not every Ian Banks though ) and too me what makes the Culture Series simply good space opera rather than the more serious end of Science Fiction is that he never really dwells on how the Culture actually functions on a deeper level as a society. (I may be wrong about this but I think there is a few allusions to things like the Minds possibly controlling human society and throwaway lines about how outside observers don't understand how the Culture functions but it does anyway).
I think Science Fiction is nearly always improved when an author isn't building a universe the way he or she would like things to turn out, my theory is that this is because if its writing about something you don't like the idea of forces you to think about how such a system would actual come into being whereas if you 'believe' in something you write about there wouldn't be that challenge.

Since its this forum I would recommend Faith in Our Fathers by Philip K.Dick. Its nice (by nice I mean good, its actually nasty) short read who's ideas are probably mildly uncomfortable to both Atheists and Theists alike.

A problem I have with that kind of series of books is that I cannot see how the system works, how the mundane stuff like people getting fed or clothed happens. A perfect illustration of what I mean is from Terry Pratchett's Night Watch:

Sam Vimes wrote:

Every dat, maybe a hundred cows died for Ankh-Morpork. So did a flock of sheep and a herd of pigs and the gods alone knew how many ducks, chickens and geese. Flour? He'd heard it was eighty tons, and about the same amount of potatoes and maybe twenty tons of herring. He didn't particularly want to know this kind of thin g, but once you started having to sort out the everlasting traffic problem these were facts that got handed to you.
Every day, forty thousand eggs were laid for the city. Every day, hundreds, thousands of carts and boats and barges converged on the city with fish and honey anoysters and olives and eels and lobsters. And then think of the horses dragging this stuff, and the windmills... and the woll coming in, too, every day, the cloth, the tobacco, the spices, the ore the timber the cheese, the coal, the fat, the tallow, the hay EVERY DAMN DAY

Now the books don't have to go full detail nor establish everything, but for me they do have to show how the system works, the conflicts it can cause, and how the changes the author has wrought (whether introducing magic, a post scarcity society, personal teleportation {Alfred Bester's Tiger! Tiger! does a great job of showing how the place of women in society could change because of this one} or anything else into the equation) could possibly change society and how society would adjust to that change and normalise around it. You don't show that to me and the story is not really believable.

But this is a discussion for another day, and another thread, I think.