Course advice please

Mph2010

Hi my name is Mark

I am new to this so please excuse me if I am posting in the wrong place or anything. I am considering taking a course in the sound training centre in temple bar the course that I have been looking at is the part time sound and music technology it is a 2 year course costing 3000 a year. The question I'm asking has anybody taking the course before and if so what did they think of it or can anyone advise me on similar courses that they have taking. Some help would be very much appreciated

Thank you
Mark

Mph2010

Bump

seannash

What are you looking to achieve out of it ultimately. Are you doing it so you know how to produce your own music or looking to eventually work as a sound engineer. If its the sound engineer route will you be looking to do it in a studio, live venue,TV/radio etc.

Mph2010

Thanks for your reply

I was kind of hoping a bit of both mainly for my own productional purposes. But if I could get a qualification and eventually get a job in a studio as a engineer that would be amazing. Are you familiar with the course yourself?

seannash

Mph2010 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply

I was kind of hoping a bit of both mainly for my own productional purposes. But if I could get a qualification and eventually get a job in a studio as a engineer that would be amazing. Are you familiar with the course yourself?

I'm not but I attended a course in pulse recording studio years ago and although it was actually a very good course I found that it wasnt what I was looking for.
I wanted to make my own music and not worry about recording. Plus I was too young to appreciate what I was being shown.
If I were you Id learn how to make your own music first without the aid of this course.
What is stopping you making your own music right now??

Mph2010

There's not much stopping me making my own music it's just that I have been learning from all different online sites (tuturials and books) and am finding myself been confused a bit from so many different ways there is. I thought by doing a course such as this I would be thought one way and would help me adjust to my own way of doing things plus I am interested in most aspects of sound engineering. But that's a very good point I don't want to take the course to find that it's not what I am looking that's really the reason for this thread to try get some insite to the course

beechpark

I am running a "Sound Recording For Musicians" course which might be just what you need. You can check it out here:

Oh, I can't post a URL so please go to beechpark dot com and select the top right tab.

splitrmx

If you want to make your own music you'd be better off investing in a pair of good studio monitors and spending the rest of the time reading manuals for either Logic or Ableton, along with looking at lots of tutorials on Youtube.

paulo6891

You can do it yourself these days. Paying for a course like that is in many ways looking for a magic button that you press and you become a producer. Especially for what you're after. It takes years of practice, but with youtube, you have everything that you need at your fingertips (except perhaps, motivation )

MarkTheBaby

I'd be interested in knowing what courses people have done out there whether 6 months, 1 year, 2years long that are focused on production. I know it takes years of graft to get used to software and getting your own style and flow down but where can I go to fast track this, with tutors who are committed to teaching you and helping you with projects?

My motivation skyrockets when I have tutors and mentors to work with, I'm finished my degree next year and am looking forward to investing in a course, either in Ireland (Dublin preferrably) or abroad in other European cities.

What courses are good and what are bad for getting work done and fostering creativity in music production?

Has anyone taken any courses abroad or know of any cities where there are good courses?

paulo6891

Berklee in the US or Point Blank in London are the first two that spring to mind. But be prepared to part with cash

MarkTheBaby

Yowza, that Point Blank school is pricey, and I assume Berklee is even more expensive. Anyone here have any experience or heard of any decent schools around Europe similar to the likes of Point Blank that won't cost me my first born? :P Anything €8,000 p/a or less?

paulo6891

What kind of music are you looking to get into btw? You're better off just finding an active music forum, getting to know people, doing collabs, remaking existing sounds that you like etc etc.

And you could do worse than picking one synth, sticking to it, and actually reading the manual! Reverse engineering is your friend.

Note that point blank have an online one for cheaper
http://online.pointblanklondon.com/courses/

whitenoise

These guys have a really good reputation

SAE Institute

Can't post a link

whitenoise

Dundalk IT has a fairly comprehensive Music production programme

Freedom Square

I know two people who took this course and they are not good producers. They made contacts and bull-talked their way into the industry. If you want to falsify your music, do this course. If you want to respect the music, get an introduction from someone and work hard at it on your own time.

Personally I have a degree in music production and sound design, what I learned from them in comparison to what I learned myself was minimal. However, doing 3 years of study had an adverse effect of keeping me in touch with what it was I wanted to do, otherwise I may not still be doing music.

I would suggest that you don't expect too much from a course - them that can, do, them that can't, teach. True dat.

GTE

Freedom Square wrote: »

I know two people who took this course and they are not good producers. They made contacts and bull-talked their way into the industry. If you want to falsify your music, do this course. If you want to respect the music, get an introduction from someone and work hard at it on your own time.

Personally I have a degree in music production and sound design, what I learned from them in comparison to what I learned myself was minimal. However, doing 3 years of study had an adverse effect of keeping me in touch with what it was I wanted to do, otherwise I may not still be doing music.

I would suggest that you don't expect too much from a course - them that can, do, them that can't, teach. True dat.

Needless to say that is your opinion, which is biased towards your own personal experiences.

In my experience of doing a post-leaving cert course, undergraduate degree and post-graduate degree, I have been able to work hard in subject areas I like which has translated into consistently getting work, and being regarded positively from it.

What you have stated is that two people have faked their way through whatever path they chose for themselves. Educational institutions do not force people to be like that, which is what your post either knowingly or unknowingly implies, strongly. They offer the education, and it is up to the student to do the hard work.

The sweeping generalsations you made in your post could easilly be repeated by me, where-by I could say that you simply did not work hard enough in your degree and worked hard when you realised you wasted your time. But of course, that is a ridiculous thing to say; unless I find someone in a similar situation and base my conclusions on that? That is what you did. Is that fair of me to do?

Your final comment about "cant do, teach" is certainly one which has been born out of a culture of bad teaching which I can relate to; however, for you to make the generalisation you made about teaching simply insults the vast majority of educators who I have personally met and worked with over nearly a decade who have a genuine aptitude towards teaching, which I am sure a significant number industry professions would not have, just because it is not what they do.

Freedom Square

bbk wrote: »

Needless to say that is your opinion, which is biased towards your own personal experiences.

In my experience of doing a post-leaving cert course, undergraduate degree and post-graduate degree, I have been able to work hard in subject areas I like which has translated into consistently getting work, and being regarded positively from it.

What you have stated is that two people have faked their way through whatever path they chose for themselves. Educational institutions do not force people to be like that, which is what your post either knowingly or unknowingly implies, strongly. They offer the education, and it is up to the student to do the hard work.

The sweeping generalsations you made in your post could easilly be repeated by me, where-by I could say that you simply did not work hard enough in your degree and worked hard when you realised you wasted your time. But of course, that is a ridiculous thing to say; unless I find someone in a similar situation and base my conclusions on that? That is what you did. Is that fair of me to do?

Your final comment about "cant do, teach" is certainly one which has been born out of a culture of bad teaching which I can relate to; however, for you to make the generalisation you made about teaching simply insults the vast majority of educators who I have personally met and worked with over nearly a decade who have a genuine aptitude towards teaching, which I am sure a significant number industry professions would not have, just because it is not what they do.

All you are going to get from any course in music production, is an introduction. It's just not possible to get any more than that. Music producers are not made in 2 or even 3 years.

It's a long and arduous personal effort and people who are expecting to know something when they finish a course need to be brought back down to earth with the truth - it's just not the case.

The thing is, electronic music can't be taught, it's a topic far more vast than any other form of music. There are no guides for mixing synthesizers like there are for mixing sounds from physical instruments such as guitars, violins etc.

Post introduction, trial and error is how you learn. I've witnessed what guys who did this course are capable of and without assassinating their character too much, it's pathetic how they think things are done.

With that said, you can put all your focus into becoming the best that you can be, only to find that it's who you know, not what you know. So you can go and study music production, make some contacts and put the egg before the chicken, or, my advice would be to study something that guarantees your future and pay for an introduction from someone on the side.

Sadly, this advice was given to me before I made my decision and now I'm fairly skilled off my own hard work and lacking a back-up plan that would have shielded me from the corruption of the music industry.

The bottom line here I think, is that nobody is going to teach you what you want to do, only you can do that - so it begs the question, why bother studying something that you're going to teach yourself?

DamagedTrax

i think you're generalising hugely @freedom.

let me explain.

i thought myself to produce techno, ran a vinyl label and gigged as far away as russia and montreal. i now predominantly produce and mix indie/rock/pop etc and luckily, im starting to make a bit of a living off it.

i'm also the product of a course. i did my course as i wanted a formal education, NOT to become a producer or engineer, that was something i knew a course could never make me. as producers/engineers we are on a constant quest for knowledge, why not supplement that with situations where i got to record/mix on a neve or ssl alongside stephen street (he of blur & the smiths production credits) and the script (myself and a mate were assistants on their xmas number 1 a few years back)...

...or get to learn live sound with my hands on a midas in a real venue? or get to have lectures with people like phil hayes and learn about the media side of the industry with niall stokes?

point is that in my course, i wasnt the odd one out. everyone of us had a background in music and used that background to transfer over to engineering and production. infact, i think at interview stage, some musical experience was a requirment.

the students that 'expect' a career from the course definitely exist but are the minority.

unfortunately for some, unless you carve a career for yourself you're unlikely to fall into a job in music (from my year i think 4 or 5 are in the industry in some form), so therefore it may look like a bunch of students 'expecting' careers when it is in fact a bunch of hardworking people who just got unlucky in a very small industry.

GTE

Freedom Square wrote: »

All you are going to get from any course in music production, is an introduction. It's just not possible to get any more than that. Music producers are not made in 2 or even 3 years.

I find it hard to see that as a legitimate argument against further and higher education, as anyone who goes into those sectors with that perception really are missing the point completely. I'd be shocked if anyone could reasonably believe that formal education, which we are generally in for the formative parts of our lives, is anything more than an introductory, skills building exercise.

It's a long and arduous personal effort and people who are expecting to know something when they finish a course need to be brought back down to earth with the truth - it's just not the case.

True, but not the educators fault, who you were blaming in your original, hopefully less considered post.

The thing is, electronic music can't be taught, it's a topic far more vast than any other form of music. There are no guides for mixing synthesizers like there are for mixing sounds from physical instruments such as guitars, violins etc.

Yikes; that is a big claim to make.

Post introduction, trial and error is how you learn. I've witnessed what guys who did this course are capable of and without assassinating their character too much, it's pathetic how they think things are done.

It would appear your sample size is two.

With that said, you can put all your focus into becoming the best that you can be, only to find that it's who you know, not what you know. So you can go and study music production, make some contacts and put the egg before the chicken, or, my advice would be to study something that guarantees your future and pay for an introduction from someone on the side.

That is a personal opinion, which again has nothing to do with the blame game you started with against educators earlier in the thread.

Sadly, this advice was given to me before I made my decision and now I'm fairly skilled off my own hard work and lacking a back-up plan that would have shielded me from the corruption of the music industry.

I don't sense objectivity.

The bottom line here I think, is that nobody is going to teach you what you want to do, only you can do that

Of course, it is up to the individual student to choose an area they like and make good use of the facilities and expertise that an educational institution provides.

so it begs the question, why bother studying something that you're going to teach yourself?

Because a good student will combine their personal interest, enegry and motivation to take what they are being taught in class and in practical workshops and most importantly, use of the opportunities which most educational institutions give their interested students.

Your posts really to show how what seems to be a bad personal experience and what is most definitely a narrow minded observation which has lead to an equally narrow minded conclusion about something which you may not know as much as you should.

Freedom Square

It's only ever going to be an introduction so I think it's a better idea to get an introduction somewhere else.

I enjoyed my first 2 years at college for the most part although nothing I was taught couldn't have been acquired from an elementary book on the subject and certain elementary principals which I now know better, weren't addressed as coherently as they could have been.

My 3rd year however was a disaster and I feel robbed, tricked and conned by that. I went to university to do the 3rd year of my degree and I spent the most part of it adapting a script for radio when I wanted to get my hands dirty with sound. I wasn't a writer or anything of the sort, we were there to be kept busy, not to learn anything practical.

To make matters worse, a module entitled "Creative Sound Synthesis" actually involved using computer code to make such basic beeps as to make the word synthesis completely irrelevant to a module that could have been much better spent twiddling knobs.

The problem was, I went to study my 3rd year at a university whose pride and joy was their gaming department and modules of my course were adapted so much to suit the gaming department that they no longer suited the audio students - this was a crime against education in my opinion.

I have spoken to other classmates of mine who studied at other universities for their 3rd year and they are pretty much in agreement with me as regard to their course.

What I got from my 3 years of abject misery was an introduction to music production that wasn't even a completely formed one.

Then you get to a stage where you're getting confident and comfortable in what you can do and the next battle is cronyism.

I don't want to hijack this thread, I can see your points and hopefully you can see mine.

Freedom Square

It's only ever going to be an introduction so I think it's a better idea to get an introduction somewhere else.

I enjoyed my first 2 years at college for the most part although nothing I was taught couldn't have been acquired from an elementary book on the subject and certain elementary principals which I now know better, weren't addressed as coherently as they could have been.

My 3rd year however was a disaster and I feel robbed, tricked and conned by that. I went to university to do the 3rd year of my degree and I spent the most part of it adapting a script for radio when I wanted to get my hands dirty with sound. I wasn't a writer or anything of the sort, we were there to be kept busy, not to learn anything practical.

To make matters worse, a module entitled "Creative Sound Synthesis" actually involved using computer code to make such basic beeps as to make the word synthesis completely irrelevant to a module that could have been much better spent twiddling knobs.

The problem was, I went to study my 3rd year at a university whose pride and joy was their gaming department and modules of my course were adapted so much to suit the gaming department that they no longer suited the audio students - this was a crime against education in my opinion.

I have spoken to other classmates of mine who studied at other universities for their 3rd year and they are pretty much in agreement with me as regard to their course.

What I got from my 3 years of abject misery was an introduction to music production that wasn't even a completely formed one.

Then you get to a stage where you're getting confident and comfortable in what you can do and the next battle is cronyism.

I don't want to hijack this thread, I can see your points and hopefully you can see mine.

BTW, to call me narrow minded is a narrow minded observation.

GTE

Freedom Square wrote: »

It's only ever going to be an introduction so I think it's a better idea to get an introduction somewhere else.

I enjoyed my first 2 years at college for the most part although nothing I was taught couldn't have been acquired from an elementary book on the subject and certain elementary principals which I now know better, weren't addressed as coherently as they could have been.

My 3rd year however was a disaster and I feel robbed, tricked and conned by that. I went to university to do the 3rd year of my degree and I spent the most part of it adapting a script for radio when I wanted to get my hands dirty with sound. I wasn't a writer or anything of the sort, we were there to be kept busy, not to learn anything practical.

To make matters worse, a module entitled "Creative Sound Synthesis" actually involved using computer code to make such basic beeps as to make the word synthesis completely irrelevant to a module that could have been much better spent twiddling knobs.

The problem was, I went to study my 3rd year at a university whose pride and joy was their gaming department and modules of my course were adapted so much to suit the gaming department that they no longer suited the audio students - this was a crime against education in my opinion.

I have spoken to other classmates of mine who studied at other universities for their 3rd year and they are pretty much in agreement with me as regard to their course.

What I got from my 3 years of abject misery was an introduction to music production that wasn't even a completely formed one.

Then you get to a stage where you're getting confident and comfortable in what you can do and the next battle is cronyism.

I don't want to hijack this thread, I can see your points and hopefully you can see mine.

I can see you had a bad experience with a course but the way you delivered your points, especially initially only serve to discredit your opinion, which I would hope the OP considers.

Proper research and question asking before you choose the course which will largely dictate the next 3 or 4 years is very important and I am gobsmacked that you would willingly go to a Uni which based their degree on gaming audio and then be surprised that the degree is gaming centric.

Every college and uni I can think of offers something different under the music technology/audio production etc. subject name umbrellas.

Maybe the thread is hijacked though; the initial post had to be dealt with as you making up your mind on an further and higher education as a whole leaves a lot to be desired in terms of how it was formed and communicated, especially to people who need genuine help in forming their next 5 year plan etc.

Freedom Square

bbk wrote: »

I can see you had a bad experience with a course but the way you delivered your points, especially initially only serve to discredit your opinion, which I would hope the OP considers.

Proper research and question asking before you choose the course which will largely dictate the next 3 or 4 years is very important and I am gobsmacked that you would willingly go to a Uni which based their degree on gaming audio and then be surprised that the degree is gaming centric.

Every college and uni I can think of offers something different under the music technology/audio production etc. subject name umbrellas.

Maybe the thread is hijacked though; the initial post had to be dealt with as you making up your mind on an further and higher education as a whole leaves a lot to be desired in terms of how it was formed and communicated, especially to people who need genuine help in forming their next 5 year plan etc.

You've made outlandish assumptions with this post. Where did I say that my course was "based on gaming audio"? You've committed what's known as genetic fallacy - you're assuming to know fully the origin of my opinion and the entirety of my decision-making process.

What my course was actually based on was creative sound design for media - it was to include games but not to encompass them. It's also worth noting that to expect sound designers for games to have an advanced understanding of sound is not outlandish in any way. It was the most appropriate of any course I looked at for anyone wishing to obtain the title of sound-designer - if it was ever to be obtained from studying.

To suggest I didn't research my course is offensive. Universities sell themselves just like McDonalds, Adidas or any other brand - you're told it's brilliant and it's too late by the time you realise it isn't.

Nobody says their doing 5 years here anyway, it is you who have suggested that. I am offering help to anyone forming a plan to study sound production or electronic music - don't expect to leave a 2 or 3 year course with anything more than entry level knowledge.

Here is what I would do:

1. Buy a DAW (Abelton, FL Studio, Studio One etc.), a midi keyboard and a decent pair of headphones.
2. Watch some tutorial videos on youtube, of which there are thousands.
3. Buy "Electronic Music for Computer Musicians" and read it at your own pace.
4. Practise, practise, practise.

You're on your own as far as bringing "your" ideas to life. The sooner you realise that the better.

GTE

Well, to come into a course and get to the final year without knowing the assignment structure is astounding, and certainly should be the biggest thing for the OP to get out of the threat; research, ask questions and form your decision from fact. The college or uni can not lie about what assignments are issued and how the learning outcomes are assessed.

To think formal education disrespects music is quite a claim, and for people to think one is meant to get anything more than formative experience from college/uni is disappointing; especially coupled with the belief that educators are simply people who cant make it.

Regarding the rest of your advice regarding DAW's etc., its very sensible which will definitely enhance any academic and practical education sought in an educational institution. In fact, it is fantastic how they can compliment each other when the effort is put in - especially when things get hands on during assignments.

Best of luck to the OP.

Freedom Square

bbk wrote: »

Well, to come into a course and get to the final year without knowing the assignment structure is astounding, and certainly should be the biggest thing for the OP to get out of the threat; research, ask questions and form your decision from fact. The college or uni can not lie about what assignments are issued and how the learning outcomes are assessed.

Best of luck to the OP.

Who said that I didn't know the assignment structure? Again, this is offensive. I had actually emailed the head of the course a year in advance - I was more prepared and more eager than most to learn.

The primary goal of any education institution is profit. It's a business just like any other. As such, bums on seats is #1 and everything else is supplementary in varying degrees.

While certain lecturers certainly are well experienced, it's impossible for the student to know the right questions to ask, as such it's impossible to get the answers you need. So, whether the lecturers know or not, is irrelevant to certain degree.

An introduction is all that can be obtained.

I don't believe that this thread has been hijacked. I think there are certain points in both our arguments that worth noting. After all, what use is an argument that doesn't contain at least two sides?

TheArtOfNoise

Here's my advice: firstly ask yourself do you want to be a musician or a techie? or both?

The best musicians are self taught! Techies i.e. Sound Engineers on the other hand can benefit from college but you have to remember most of the big successful ones of a certain age never went to college too. Anyway I studied in the Sound Training Center Temple Bar in 1992. It was great and although I only worked in music studios around town briefly, later on I was one of the first involved in multimedia and digital audio in the Irish IT industry. Most of the audio technology I trained on in Temple Bar is completely obsolete now, although the Sound Theory and the beauty of analog recording remains the same.

There's a lot a potential future Sound Engineer can avail of today that wasn't available when I started. Tech is way cheaper and learning tools and more importantly contacts and interest groups are out there now. I'm still learning myself and forever rebuilding my studio - that part of it never goes away. Summer 2014 I did a free online course from respected US Berklee College of Music that easily matched and surpassed my original Studio Engineering course in 1992. Highly recommended!

If I was 21 again and was looking at a €3K course fee, I would advise building my own small studio, learn the tools myself and do online courses/read books/industry magazines/network websites etc and importantly meet techies and musicians at live gigs the old way...

coursera.org/berklee