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Ball Moving At Rest Rules Query

  • 16-09-2014 6:39am
    #1
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭


    Ball at rest on the putting surface 4ft from hole on a large slope, but at rest.
    Ball marked, picked up & replaced ready for putt & marker lifted.
    Player does not make his stance as is crouching to view his line, etc.
    No gust of wind but suddenly ball decides of its own accord to roll down the hill away from the hole.

    My take is as the ball moved of its own accord & was not subjected to an outside agency, the ball must be played from where it ends up with no penalty stroke.
    Player insisted it is re-positioned to its original position with no penalty.

    I can't find anything in my Rules of Golf App. Does anybody know the correct ruling?


Comments

  • #2
    ForeRight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭ForeRight


    I'm pretty sure you play it from where it now lies.

    I heard a story from a matchplay where a ball rolled similar to your story but ended up inches from the hole instead. It was the difference in the match.


  • #3
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    I am fairly sure this is correct. I just can't find the rule that relates to it.


  • #4
    Benicetomonty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭Benicetomonty


    Hard to pinpoint the exact rule considering the circumstances. Rule says if ball moves after you address it due to an outside agency (eg wind), it is played from new position without penalty.

    But you hadnt addressed it, so amnt sure. I would guess though that since ball was at rest, the same procedure applies. Question: does gravity qualify as an outside agency?


  • #5
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭newport2


    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    Hard to pinpoint the exact rule considering the circumstances. Rule says if ball moves after you address it due to an outside agency (eg wind), it is played from new position without penalty.

    +1
    Benicetomonty wrote: »
    Hard to pinpoint the exact rule considering the circumstances. Rule says if ball moves after you address it due to an outside agency (eg wind), it is played from new position without penalty.

    But you hadnt addressed it, so amnt sure. I would guess though that since ball was at rest, the same procedure applies. Question: does gravity qualify as an outside agency?

    Rule
    Ball in Play Moved by Wind or Gravity
    Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green and the ball is at rest. Without addressing the ball the player steps away to read his putt.

    The ball moves either due to the wind or the slope of the putting green. How should the player proceed?
    A. The player must play his ball from the new position without penalty.

    If the ball was moved into the hole then the player is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke (Decision 20-3d/1).

    Note: It is not relevant whether the player had removed his ball-marker before the ball was moved by the wind or gravity as the player's ball was in play when it was replaced (Rule 20-4).


  • #6
    charlieIRL
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭charlieIRL


    loosely similar thing happened to me on the 17th in Tullamore last night. Par 3, ball landed on an upslope only a few feet from the hole, playing partner walked by my ball before i got to mark it and all of a sudden my ball takes off back down the green all the way to the fringe! I played it from where it finished.


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  • #7
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    charlieIRL wrote: »
    loosely similar thing happened to me on the 17th in Tullamore last night. Par 3, ball landed on an upslope only a few feet from the hole, playing partner walked by my ball before i got to mark it and all of a sudden my ball takes off back down the green all the way to the fringe! I played it from where it finished.

    Ha, thought when I started reading that you were going to go on to say a hole in one and the massive argument that followed!!


  • #8
    Tommo 76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭Tommo 76


    Think this happened this year in the Sony Open in Hawaii did it? Ball was blown across the green further away from hole and had to be played from where it finished up. Could have been Jason Dufner it happened to but cannot remember.


  • #9
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    newport2 wrote: »
    +1



    Rule
    Ball in Play Moved by Wind or Gravity
    Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green and the ball is at rest. Without addressing the ball the player steps away to read his putt.

    The ball moves either due to the wind or the slope of the putting green. How should the player proceed?
    A. The player must play his ball from the new position without penalty.

    If the ball was moved into the hole then the player is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke (Decision 20-3d/1).

    Note: It is not relevant whether the player had removed his ball-marker before the ball was moved by the wind or gravity as the player's ball was in play when it was replaced (Rule 20-4).

    Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for.

    Do you have a link to that?


  • #10
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭newport2


    shane 007 wrote: »
    Thanks. That's exactly what I was looking for.

    Do you have a link to that?

    http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=163&Rule=18


  • #11
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    newport2 wrote: »
    http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=163&Rule=18

    Why is only listed under US golf rules & not in the R & A rules?


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  • #12
    SnowDrifts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    shane 007 wrote: »
    Why is only listed under US golf rules & not in the R & A rules?

    They are both the exact same set of rules but IMO the USGA's version is easier to navigate and also to share.


  • #13
    shane 007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭shane 007


    SnowDrifts wrote: »
    They are both the exact same set of rules but IMO the USGA's version is easier to navigate and also to share.

    So is it not listed with the R & A as a rule or is it just hard to find?


  • #14
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,176 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    shane 007 wrote: »
    So is it not listed with the R & A as a rule or is it just hard to find?

    Randa Q&A covers the wind element here
    http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=18&subRuleNum=1&decisionId=9996A76C-8D5F-4F30-8E6A-6A8FF6AC57D2

    As gravity is not considered to be an outside agency (same as wind), the same principles apply - however you need to be certain that it was gravity, and not something else, that caused the movement.


  • #15
    newport2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭newport2


    newport2 wrote: »
    +1



    Rule
    Ball in Play Moved by Wind or Gravity
    Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green and the ball is at rest. Without addressing the ball the player steps away to read his putt.

    The ball moves either due to the wind or the slope of the putting green. How should the player proceed?
    A. The player must play his ball from the new position without penalty.

    If the ball was moved into the hole then the player is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke (Decision 20-3d/1).

    Note: It is not relevant whether the player had removed his ball-marker before the ball was moved by the wind or gravity as the player's ball was in play when it was replaced (Rule 20-4).

    If I'm reading the bold text above correctly, this means as soon as you replace your ball on the putting green it is in play, even before you remove your marker.

    Most people replace their ball in front of their marker and then twist it/align it, step back, check their line and possibly adjust it again before removing their marker. How is this allowed if the ball is already in play?


  • #16
    SnowDrifts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭SnowDrifts


    newport2 wrote: »
    If I'm reading the bold text above correctly, this means as soon as you replace your ball on the putting green it is in play, even before you remove your marker.

    Most people replace their ball in front of their marker and then twist it/align it, step back, check their line and possibly adjust it again before removing their marker. How is this allowed if the ball is already in play?

    There does seem to be a bit of a conflict between the following decisions alright..
    20-4/1
    Ball Replaced on Putting Green But Ball-Marker Not Removed; Ball Then Moves

    Q.A player replaces his ball on the putting green but does not remove his ball-marker. Subsequently the wind moves his ball to a new position. What is the ruling?

    A.Under Rule 20-4, a ball is in play when it is replaced, whether or not the object used to mark its position has been removed. Consequently the ball must be played from the new position – see Decision 18-1/12.

    And then...
    18-2a/33
    Rotating Ball on Putting Green Without Marking Position

    Q.A player rotates his ball on the putting green to line up the trademark with the hole. He did not lift the ball, mark its position or change its position. Is there a penalty?

    A.Yes, one stroke for touching the ball other than as provided for in the Rules (Rule 18-2a). Under Rules 16-1b and 20-1, a ball on the putting green may be lifted (or touched and rotated) after its position has been marked. If the player had marked the position of the ball before rotating it, there would have been no penalty.

    I have asked the same question before especially after watching the likes of Furyk who constantly fiddles with his ball after having a little stroll around the green. The answer I got was that each time you move/rotate the ball (whilst marked), you are taking it back out of play and then putting it back into play once desired alignment is met.


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