Secondary school teaching

HannahLang

Hi all, i was just wondering what the demand is for german teachers? I'm aware french is a popular subject for students taking a language but I was wondering how popular is German? Has the amount of people taking the subject increased/decreased in recent years? And also the demand for German teachers in schools? Any information at all would be greatly appreciated 😊 thanking you in advance

spurious

French
2014 26,496 at LC (Both levels)
2014 33,908 at JC (Both levels)

German
2014 6,858 at LC (Both levels)
2014 10,467 at JC (Both levels)

Not much demand for teachers of anything at the moment. If you could combine German with Irish or Maths you'd be in a much stronger position.

The trend for German is ever so slightly up, but more due to rising numbers in general I think rather than any great love for the Muttersprache. It seems to be one many students drop after Junior, while continuing with French.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

French
2014 26,496 at LC (Both levels)
2014 33,908 at JC (Both levels)

German
2014 6,858 at LC (Both levels)
2014 10,467 at JC (Both levels)

Not much demand for teachers of anything at the moment. If you could combine German with Irish or Maths you'd be in a much stronger position.

The trend for German is ever so slightly up, but more due to rising numbers in general I think rather than any great love for the Muttersprache. It seems to be one many students drop after Junior, while continuing with French.

German is so much harder when you get beyond JC level, it's not surprising that so many give it up. A shame, but understandable.

vamos!

katydid wrote: »

German is so much harder when you get beyond JC level, it's not surprising that so many give it up. A shame, but understandable.

I very strongly disagree. I think it is such a shame that German has this reputation as it damages student numbers. This is spread by some guidance teachers and parents who remember what they were told in their day but in my experience it's just not true.

katydid

vamos! wrote: »

I very strongly disagree. I think it is such a shame that German has this reputation as it damages student numbers. This is spread by some guidance teachers and parents who remember what they were told in their day but in my experience it's just not true.

I am a German and French teacher. I'm speaking from thirty years of teaching both languages. I speak German every day at home, and I still make errors with gender, cases etc...

German seems easy at the beginning, because the words sound like English. But the grammar gets much much harder the further you go into it. For native English speakers, the concept of gender is difficult to understand, and cases are even more difficult.

Irish students, as native English speakers, are difficult to motivate in the first place. Struggling with concepts they find difficult to understand - and find it hard to see the point of - is going to affect subject choice, whether or not we like it.

vamos!

I suppose it depends on the individual so. I find the German paper to be nicely structured and the oral to be far more accessible than the French oral. I am currently teaching both 6th Year French and German. We have been finished with the German oral for ages. It was challenging to perfect the role-plays and picture stories but they're done and the students know exactly what will be asked of them and how many marks they get if they answer. The general question section is very basic and short. We also have the basics covered in French and all students have fantastic documents I seem to be introducing something new and topical almost every day- water charges, protests, corruption, ISIL, Greece, the referendum etc etc etc! They are grilled in French! The questions are much more varied and can go anywhere.

I disagree that German grammar is any more complicated that French. It takes a bit longer to get our heads around key concepts but there are stronger rules governing German and fewer exceptions. I like teaching a rule and it being the rule. I rarely make mistakes with gender or cases as I know the rules! French might seem easier on a shallow level but there are so many exceptions to the most basic of rules, students find pronouns difficult and the subjunctive causes stress. As with the oral the French grammar course just keeps expanding. There are so many bitty parts to it. I am still covering bits of pronouns at this stage of the year, whereas the German grammar had been covered and we are just practicing and revising now.

Maybe I am very lucky with my students but they are generally very motivated and seem to enjoy languages. Quite a few hope to study a language as part of their degree next year. Most of my apathetic or unmotivated students are in my French classes. They aren't into languages and took French as the easy option. I think the structure of German would have suited them. I really German should be better promoted in schools. It won't make a difference to my job as I have a number of languages and will just teach the ones which are in demand but I think building German up as very difficult is such a mistake.

katydid

vamos! wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the individual so. I find the German paper to be nicely structured and the oral to be far more accessible than the French oral. I am currently teaching both 6th Year French and German. We have been finished with the German oral for ages. It was challenging to perfect the role-plays and picture stories but they're done and the students know exactly what will be asked of them and how many marks they get if they answer. The general question section is very basic and short. We also have the basics covered in French and all students have fantastic documents I seem to be introducing something new and topical almost every day- water charges, protests, corruption, ISIL, Greece, the referendum etc etc etc! They are grilled in French! The questions are much more varied and can go anywhere.

I disagree that German grammar is any more complicated that French. It takes a bit longer to get our heads around key concepts but there are stronger rules governing German and fewer exceptions. I like teaching a rule and it being the rule. I rarely make mistakes with gender or cases as I know the rules! French might seem easier on a shallow level but there are so many exceptions to the most basic of rules, students find pronouns difficult and the subjunctive causes stress. As with the oral the French grammar course just keeps expanding. There are so many bitty parts to it. I am still covering bits of pronouns at this stage of the year, whereas the German grammar had been covered and we are just practicing and revising now.

Maybe I am very lucky with my students but they are generally very motivated and seem to enjoy languages. Quite a few hope to study a language as part of their degree next year. Most of my apathetic or unmotivated students are in my French classes. They aren't into languages and took French as the easy option. I think the structure of German would have suited them. I really German should be better promoted in schools. It won't make a difference to my job as I have a number of languages and will just teach the ones which are in demand but I think building German up as very difficult is such a mistake.

I agree that the rules of grammar are stronger in German, but there is far more grammar to grasp; no cases as such in French, for example.

That's my opinion, anyway.

I would love to see more people taking German, but I'm realistic :-)

gubbie

vamos! wrote: »

I very strongly disagree. I think it is such a shame that German has this reputation as it damages student numbers. This is spread by some guidance teachers and parents who remember what they were told in their day but in my experience it's just not true.

I agree! And I think German is a far easier language for pronunciation as it's similar to Irish

I think it's spread that since more people in the world speak French, then it's more useful, forgetting that German would actually be a far more prominent language in Europe

Alone with just German, I don't think you'd be able to get a position. Hopefully you can dig around and find another subject that you can teach with it.

katydid

gubbie wrote: »

I agree! And I think German is a far easier language for pronunciation as it's similar to Irish

I think it's spread that since more people in the world speak French, then it's more useful, forgetting that German would actually be a far more prominent language in Europe

Alone with just German, I don't think you'd be able to get a position. Hopefully you can dig around and find another subject that you can teach with it.

German is similar to Irish???

I do agree it's easier to pronounce; pronunciation isn't the problem, it's the complex and (to Anglophones, alien) grammar concepts.

gubbie

katydid wrote: »

German is similar to Irish???

Similar to pronounce. That "ch", back of the throat sound feels more natural (well to me) than the bouncy languages that are the Mediterranean languages

katydid

gubbie wrote: »

Similar to pronounce. That "ch", back of the throat sound feels more natural (well to me) than the bouncy languages that are the Mediterranean languages

I see what you mean.

As I said, it's the grammar, not the pronunciation, that's the problem.

EMZ91

Hi!

I have applied to study teaching this year, but I am worried that there is less of a demand now for History teachers because it might not be taught at Junior Cert level in the future?

Does anyone know this is likely to happen?

paddyf123

Hi guys, just wondering what are my prospects of getting a job as a history and gepgraphy teacher in a secondary school? I am currently doing a masters in museum studies and i've realized that I really want to be a teacher. I have people telling me that I will find it hard to get a job because of my subjects, but how true is this? Both are junior and leaving cert subjects. If anyone has any advice for me I'd greatly appreciate it!

spurious

No matter what your subjects, getting work is difficult - and still they jam them into the various teacher training programmes.

paddyf123

Thanks for your reply!

But am I at a disadvantage compared to someone doing different subjects? Is the combination of History and Geography not a great one for teaching?

evolving_doors

paddyf123 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply!

But am I at a disadvantage compared to someone doing different subjects? Is the combination of History and Geography not a great one for teaching?

its a common enough combo from the teachers I know of (similar to english and history). Just prepare yourself financially for a lot of part time/subbing/dole during summer for a few years... Then again you might get lucky.

Any interest teaching in the UK??

paddyf123

Thanks for the advice! Yes I definitely would teach in the UK! If I were to do Hdip (PME) here and then go to teach in UK would I find it hard to get a job? Or would I be better off doing the Hdip in the UK?

katydid

paddyf123 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice! Yes I definitely would teach in the UK! If I were to do Hdip (PME) here and then go to teach in UK would I find it hard to get a job? Or would I be better off doing the Hdip in the UK?

You'd have no problem getting a job in the UK with a H.Dip from here.

gubbie

paddyf123 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice! Yes I definitely would teach in the UK! If I were to do Hdip (PME) here and then go to teach in UK would I find it hard to get a job? Or would I be better off doing the Hdip in the UK?

If you go to the UK there's two different ways in - the PGCE (similar enough to the PDE) or TeachFirst which is a year long, has you learning how to be a teacher on a Monday and teaching in a school on a full timetable Tuesday to Friday. You get paid with TeachFirst, but it depends on what you teach - a friend doing English got £4,000, a friend doing Maths got £20,000. You do need to pay £6,000 in fees though.

katydid

gubbie wrote: »

If you go to the UK there's two different ways in - the PGCE (similar enough to the PDE) or TeachFirst which is a year long, has you learning how to be a teacher on a Monday and teaching in a school on a full timetable Tuesday to Friday. You get paid with TeachFirst, but it depends on what you teach - a friend doing English got £4,000, a friend doing Maths got £20,000. You do need to pay £6,000 in fees though.

With TeachFirst you are very likely to be thrown in at the deep end in tough schools. I guess the pay would reflect the toughness of the school, so you'd have to earn your £20,000

gubbie

katydid wrote: »

With TeachFirst you are very likely to be thrown in at the deep end in tough schools. I guess the pay would reflect the toughness of the school, so you'd have to earn your £20,000

Oh yes, most definitely! It has it's pros and it has it's cons. You will have so much to do. But you will also have a lot more support in the school, and will feel a part of the the community, and as another teacher, instead of being the very obvious "sub" who's learning how to teach.

maynooth_rules

paddyf123 wrote: »

Hi guys, just wondering what are my prospects of getting a job as a history and gepgraphy teacher in a secondary school? I am currently doing a masters in museum studies and i've realized that I really want to be a teacher. I have people telling me that I will find it hard to get a job because of my subjects, but how true is this? Both are junior and leaving cert subjects. If anyone has any advice for me I'd greatly appreciate it!

I have both subjects and its very rare to find positions where they come together. An unbelievable amount of teachers are qualified in Geography and sadly, and a depressing situation in the Irish education system, but History is being pushed aside a bit in some schools. They may sound like two subjects that should work together as a teacher, but they don't. If I had the time again I would probably have picked a more reliable subject like English or Irish

paddyf123

Even by the time I qualify in 2 - 3years, I wont have much of a chance in getting a job? I'm going to stick with it anyway I'm sure if I kept looking I would get something.

spurious

paddyf123 wrote: »

Even by the time I qualify in 2 - 3years, I wont have much of a chance in getting a job? I'm going to stick with it anyway I'm sure if I kept looking I would get something.

Keep with it by all means, but be aware people have been saying the same thing about the job situation getting better for years. It hasn't happened. All that has happened is a massive build up of qualified teachers spewing out of the colleges and Hibernia.

paddyf123

would I have a good change of getting a position as a history and geography teacher in England?

gaiscioch

paddyf123 wrote: »

would I have a good change of getting a position as a history and geography teacher in England?

There are plenty of teaching jobs in England, for a reason. You will have a choice of jobs, for a reason. Profitable private corporations are paid by the Tory education system to come to Ireland in droves to recruit Irish teachers because there are not enough English people volunteering to teach in English schools. Why do you think that would be? Needless to say, the recruitment companies are well paid; the Paddy teachers are paid a pittance. Think recruiters for London building sites in 1950s Connacht and you're getting the true picture of the status of teachers in English society in 2015.

Teaching is a state-mandated yellow pack pseudo-profession there, where teachers are paid a pittance and endure working conditions which Irish teachers are trying to resist being imposed here. It might be acceptable to work there if you're just out of college and any money would be a fortune, relatively speaking. But as for making a career out of teaching in the English system? Look at the money they pay and think hard of how you could raise a family on it, look at the inferior holidays, the avalanche of paperwork, the huge number who leave the job very early, the much higher stress-related absences, the ultimate transience of the job in English culture - some 55% of teachers in England are in their job for 5 years or less. Do your research well, if you're thinking of working there as a career goal.

The system is a mess with teachers weighed down by an all-pervasive culture of bureaucracy, paper filling, posterior covering policies which are not even tangentially connected with actual teaching. Elsewhere on this forum we have Irish teachers writing about their experiences in the English system. Read the following from the BBC this month:

Teacher stress levels in England 'soaring', data shows (17 March 2015)

Or yet another British government promise, from last month, to alleviate teachers' stress, following a survey where 44,000 teachers in England gave feedback on their system:

Plan to cut 'excessive' teacher work announced by ministers

maynooth_rules

paddyf123 wrote: »

would I have a good change of getting a position as a history and geography teacher in England?

They do seem to come together much more as a pairing in England rather than here. I spent a year in England and found it incredibly tough. You will be assured of work there, you will have much less of a chance of getting good work here(something approaching 22 hours in your own name). In regards to the UK do lots of homework into the school/area you would be working in