Staff taking on policy initiatives

evolving_doors

Anyone have this going on in their school? Staff want to look into creating/updating a policy and given carte blanche to do so.

or is it all a case of policy from above only?

How much say do you and your fellow teachers get in school operations?

spurious

We used to have voluntary committees where those interested would get together and draw up the policy and then bring it to the whole staff for comment/adjustment.

acequion

We have a pretend democracy going on where we might get asked for our opinions at staff meetings,but ultimately management makes the decisions and staff input is frequently overlooked. It's very much top down management style nowadays,unfortunately.

Even the dividing up of classes in September has changed over the past few years. It used to be a case of subject teachers in a given year deciding amongst themselves who took what levels,with fairness and rotation being the norm. Now it's management who decides.

ethical

The workload on the voluntary secondary school Principal and Deputy Principal is huge hence the reason why work is 'passed down the line'...........and I know for a fact that this work is given to young teachers who do not have a post and who do not have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting a post.The government do not care,the work is getting done and it does not cost the a cent.Principals and Deputies in VEC schools should and do have more time on their hand s to get the work done due to HQ taking the workload off them, whether they do it or not is another story!Some do and others just pass it down the line as in the voluntary sector.The Government is the big winner.

TheDriver

I disagree ethical, having worked in both sectors in senior management, workload is similar. ETBs make some things less time consuming but other things more time consuming.

acequion

With all due respect TheDriver,there is overwhelming evidence that NQT's and teachers with no job security are being passed down tasks they feel they are in no position to refuse. That does not mean that school managers like yourself don't work extremely hard,nor does it mean that every principal takes advantage. But the worrying fact is that there are more and more of those who do.

And with top down management now in vogue, the current culture is on their side. And that is most unfortunate and will not ultimately incentivise young professionals to give of their best to their students. Which is why they are in the job in the first place.

TheDriver

I was not referring to this behaviour of which your point is true, i was referring to the notion that p or dp in certain types of schools is easier than others

Frankly frank

Ya ok ok folks, back on topic. Post deleted , member warned etc....
I was just wondering how policies were looked at in schools. I didn't mean to raise heckles (I'll take the blame this time for 'starting it').
MOD

evolving_doors

Maybe if I could ask.. once policies/ initiatives have been implemented BY OTHER STAFF, do all staff get to have a say or is it ratified automatically by the 'select committee' who took it on?

Im just wondering because we are starting to draw up a more concise uniform policy for students. All well and good, but the issue of how the staff dress is being 'put out' as being something that needs to be addressed (I'm getting out the popcorn to see how this one turns out!!). Principal is watching from the sidelines so doesn't mind, but a lot of the folk are getting antsy about 'select committees' making decisions about the rest of the staff, without any vote!!

Does anyone here ever get to vote once the policies are drawn up?

2011abc

Ha! I assume you have some prim and proper aul wan on YOUR staff driving that initiative like we do / did. Wear what you want Armelodie !!!

TheDriver

Why do you even need a policy on staff dress sense?? Anyways, all policies should go through the various educational partners i.e. parents council, student council and staff meetings before board ratifies them (some don't need to go to student council if its deemed unsuitable). However caution about drafting the policies is also required. I have found some staff love to draft policies and have them 30 pages long with quite unworkable facts. The reality at the end of the day is the P and DP must abide by these policies and if they are made unworkable, it can tie things up in knots. One example is say a policy on homework whereby its pages long, no one reads it before passing it and it says something like "every time a student doesn't do homework, the P must spend 2 hours explaining the importance of homework" and suddenly its law in the school. Obviously I jest with the last example but you get my sentiment. Policies need to be short and workable.
Staff input is necessary for policy development, they should ultimately be drafted by staff and management, passed by staff as a whole and workable. Common sense and inclusiveness is required.

TheDriver

ethical wrote: »

The workload on the voluntary secondary school Principal and Deputy Principal is huge hence the reason why work is 'passed down the line'...........and I know for a fact that this work is given to young teachers who do not have a post and who do not have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting a post.The government do not care,the work is getting done and it does not cost the a cent.Principals and Deputies in VEC schools should and do have more time on their hand s to get the work done due to HQ taking the workload off them, whether they do it or not is another story!Some do and others just pass it down the line as in the voluntary sector.The Government is the big winner.

Its a terribly difficult time in education for all involved. Teachers are having a rotten time due to wage cuts, more work loads, CP hours and morale being low. Couple this with NQTs getting somewhat screwed on wages and its not good.
Then take P&DP, they are also being screwed because they have to hold the baby. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about being paid enough to do it, I am merely saying that its very very hard to manage a school when resources are being cut more and more. When teachers say no to doing things that were usually done by postholders, the P and DP are stuck in a bind because Govt doesn't care, no one else will do them and suddenly things like managing lockers, various councils, books schemes, exams secretaries are becoming part of P and DP jobs.

My point is that everyone is getting screwed and its not a good time in education. Having said that, a collaborative approach to educational management yields much better working conditions for all in my experience, top down only makes situation worse for both teachers and management

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Maybe if I could ask.. once policies/ initiatives have been implemented BY OTHER STAFF, do all staff get to have a say or is it ratified automatically by the 'select committee' who took it on?

Im just wondering because we are starting to draw up a more concise uniform policy for students. All well and good, but the issue of how the staff dress is being 'put out' as being something that needs to be addressed (I'm getting out the popcorn to see how this one turns out!!). Principal is watching from the sidelines so doesn't mind, but a lot of the folk are getting antsy about 'select committees' making decisions about the rest of the staff, without any vote!!

Does anyone here ever get to vote once the policies are drawn up?

When we need a new policy on something, a committee is usually formed at a staff meeting/croke park hours and people volunteer to be on the committee. At the next meeting when the draft policy is presented we all get a copy. We go through it line by line and we hammer out any changes that need to be made, wording, grammar etc, but also anyone on staff can bring up an issue they have with part of it, until we settle on something.


Why has the issue been raised about staff dress code in your school? Is it coming from management or staff?

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

When we need a new policy on something, a committee is usually formed at a staff meeting/croke park hours and people volunteer to be on the committee. At the next meeting when the draft policy is presented we all get a copy. We go through it line by line and we hammer out any changes that need to be made, wording, grammar etc, but also anyone on staff can bring up an issue they have with part of it, until we settle on something.


Why has the issue been raised about staff dress code in your school? Is it coming from management or staff?

Well... suffice to say it's a fee paying school, so a certain 'decorum' needs to be presented... as in, hoody and jeans were being flouted by certain new trendy relaxed teachers esp amongst parental interactions.. and students commented on it too believe it or not (I could go on:pac::pac::pac:). So if we're telling them to shape up then etc etc...

So it'll come down to a policy paper being presented (god knows will they be specifying hemline length etc!) and then that's that.. without a vote. Maybe it'll all come apart at the seams when PE teachers get caught in the firing line. As I said, I'm buying the popcorn now for the staff meeting next week.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Well... suffice to say it's a fee paying school, so a certain 'decorum' needs to be presented... as in, hoody and jeans were being flouted by certain new trendy relaxed teachers esp amongst parental interactions.. and students commented on it too believe it or not (I could go on:pac::pac::pac:). So if we're telling them to shape up then etc etc...

So it'll come down to a policy paper being presented (god knows will they be specifying hemline length etc!) and then that's that.. without a vote. Maybe it'll all come apart at the seams when PE teachers get caught in the firing line. As I said, I'm buying the popcorn now for the staff meeting next week.

To be honest I can see the whole hoodie thing being a bit too casual. I say that as someone who has a few extra piercings in my ears. They probably wouldn't wear it into work in any other professional setting. I suppose if the students are supposed to present themselves in some sort of formal manner through their uniform, it's not asking too much for teachers to make an effort.

My school is fairly casual. A lot of people wear jeans, myself included, but they are not trailing along the ground with the ends frayed or paired with a t-shirt. The men who wear jeans usually have a shirt or jumper with them and the woman have jumper/skirt/blouse/nice top - not t-shirts or sportswear.

I can't imagine why anyone would object to PE teachers wearing tracksuits. It's what their job requires and is generally understood as standard.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest I can see the whole hoodie thing being a bit too casual. I say that as someone who has a few extra piercings in my ears. They probably wouldn't wear it into work in any other professional setting. I suppose if the students are supposed to present themselves in some sort of formal manner through their uniform, it's not asking too much for teachers to make an effort.

My school is fairly casual. A lot of people wear jeans, myself included, but they are not trailing along the ground with the ends frayed or paired with a t-shirt. The men who wear jeans usually have a shirt or jumper with them and the woman have jumper/skirt/blouse/nice top - not t-shirts or sportswear.

I can't imagine why anyone would object to PE teachers wearing tracksuits. It's what their job requires and is generally understood as standard.

Sooo PE teacher just happens to teach a language... Has 2nd yrs for double PE..finishes and he tells em hurry the goddam hell up and get to next class in proper uniform... coincidentally has them for say german next. Walks into class and gives out to student for incorrect uniform . Meanwhile PE teacher wearing the same tracksuit rest of the day into regular language classroom !! Cue outrage from students council about strict new uniform policy... Tis a grey area... never mind what is classified as a 'low cut top' for female teachers.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Sooo PE teacher just happens to teach a language... Has 2nd yrs for double PE..finishes and he tells em hurry the goddam hell up and get to next class in proper uniform... coincidentally has them for say german next. Walks into class and gives out to student for incorrect uniform . Meanwhile PE teacher wearing the same tracksuit rest of the day into regular language classroom !! Cue outrage from students council about strict new uniform policy... Tis a grey area... never mind what is classified as a 'low cut top' for female teachers.

Really?

I don't think it's practical for a PE teacher in any school to be changing in and out of tracksuit/other clothes possibly several times a day.

Is that your view, your students' view or what you think the students will say if this new policy is enacted?

You also have to differentiate between children and adults. Adults in the school are teachers and are there to perform a different role to the students. Therefore they would not be expected to follow the exact same set of rules.

acequion

Armelodie,I have to laugh at the popcorn joke,you're gas:pac:

Our school is pretty casual too,though sometimes it's like a fashion show,especially at the moment with the fine weather and all the women,myself included, think we're at a wedding,with all the summer frocks and matching shoes. Being,big into fashion,I love going into work dressed nicely and that may well be a nice pair of jeans. Pretty much everything goes,as long as people turn up neat and respectable. Though I remember we once had a young language assistant who used to arrive in with the jeans all torn at the knees and frayed ends.Raised quite a few eyebrows until she was taken in hand.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Really?

I don't think it's practical for a PE teacher in any school to be changing in and out of tracksuit/other clothes possibly several times a day.

Is that your view, your students' view or what you think the students will say if this new policy is enacted?

You also have to differentiate between children and adults. Adults in the school are teachers and are there to perform a different role to the students. Therefore they would not be expected to follow the exact same set of rules.

My view! No way.. Im well and truly on the fence (with popcorn) with this initiative. It was staff initiated... so Im just wondering how do other schools get consensus on teacher led initiatives that affect fellow teachers? Like I can appreciate what TheDriver was saying about getting it through the BOM and parents council etc... but like is there a public vote or private vote? Or a call for ammendments from all staff and if there is none its assumed everyone is in favour.. Then you have the issue of parttime/new staff afraid to rock the boat and say no for fear of making enemies or jeopardising future hours/class allocations.
I reckon this teacher dress code will be parked anyway as folk are getting the hint after preliminary policy discussions.

2011abc

Enjoying this latest incarnation of the perennial teachers' clothes thread.Must be the calming influence of the green tea on a bright Sunday morning .I WAS going to ask what the opposite of the oft repeated description by 'lady' teachers of a 'top' as 'nice' was ....Slutty/dirty/trashy?Apparently its 'low cut'.Educational as always .

Ladies I present your next new ,nice top !

http://www.asos.com/ASOS/ASOS-Raw-Edge-Super-Cropped-Shirt/Prod/pgeproduct.aspx?iid=1474674&SearchQuery=crop%20blouse&sh=0&pge=0&pgesize=20&sort=-1&clr=White&affId=2445&WT.tsrc=Affiliate&zanpid=1946145420288013312&r=2#

Practical shoes also ...

spurious

'Low cut' could be educational.:D

I'll get my coat...

mirrorwall14

The only thing I would like changed in our dress code is height of heels. Its not a great situation to have students copying the ridiculous dance that a couple of people are doing to stay upright in heels...

Personally I'm a "work" clothes girl. Couple of pairs of black trousers, lots of tops that are comfortable and not low cut (or high cut) and I'm off. Will stick a string top under any top I'm not sure of

gaeilgebeo

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The only thing I would like changed in our dress code is height of heels. Its not a great situation to have students copying the ridiculous dance that a couple of people are doing to stay upright in heels...

As a wearer of heels to work, I would take issue with being given a "height restriction".
Some of us are vertically challenged!

As for your second point about teachers trying to stay upright in heels, that is a fashion issue, not a dress-code issue.

mirrorwall14

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As a wearer of heels to work, I would take issue with being given a "height restriction".
Some of us are vertically challenged!

As for your second point about teachers trying to stay upright in heels, that is a fashion issue, not a dress-code issue.

Sorry just to clarify, the teachers in question are certainly not height restricted!

evolving_doors

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As a wearer of heels to work, I would take issue with being given a "height restriction".
Some of us are vertically challenged!

As for your second point about teachers trying to stay upright in heels, that is a fashion issue, not a dress-code issue.

Excellent, it's started ....(currently sprinkling salt onto popcorn).

You see with the guys it's easy to define ...shirt / tie /no tie/ no jeans / jacket etc

With the ladies....

Maybe just bring back the gown like in Harry Potter. Problem solved

gaeilgebeo

Armelodie wrote: »

Excellent, it's started ....(currently sprinkling salt onto popcorn).

You see with the guys it's easy to define ...shirt / tie /no tie/ no jeans / jacket etc

With the ladies....

Maybe just bring back the gown like in Harry Potter. Problem solved

No, nothing has started.
Hold off on your popcorn, it was only tongue in cheek.
A dress-code for teachers, male or female, will always be an emotive issue.

I know a private school, where teachers do wear a black cape.
I could never work there, for fashion reasons.