UK Bar

Audacious

Hello all. Essentially I'm a recent Law graduate from UCC and I want to go to the UK bar and I was wondering if anyone out there in Boardsland has gone through the process?

At the moment I seem to have to send a huge amount of information to the Bar Standards Board over in the UK with exam papers, case lists, module descriptives etc to obtain a Certificate of Academic Standing so I can get exemptions from the GDL for everything but English Land Law and Public Law (I hope), which I can then take and go on to the BPTC and then gain pupillage.

Hopefully a few people can share their experiences and if there's light at the end of the tunnel for me!

LutherBlissett

What are your academic credentials/ what do you think you did in UCC that would help you gain pupillage, out of interest? What sort of chambers would you be aiming for?

Audacious

Well I got a first, and I don't think there's anything in particular in UCC that I feel would help me; I'm also intending to do a UK LLM in order to bolster my credentials over there for attracting pupillage.

I'd like to go into commercial law, or else EU or Public Law, and I have a few mini-pupillages to that end lined up for the coming months.

What I'm really trying to do at the moment is find people who have gone through the rigmarole of getting the Cert of Academic Standing from the BSB, have done the BPTC/BVC, have gotten pupillage, and have gotten tenancy, or are in the process of doing any of the aforementioned so I can gain some perspective from those who have made it the entire way or part thereof.

234

Audacious wrote: »

Well I got a first, and I don't think there's anything in particular in UCC that I feel would help me; I'm also intending to do a UK LLM in order to bolster my credentials over there for attracting pupillage.

I'd like to go into commercial law, or else EU or Public Law, and I have a few mini-pupillages to that end lined up for the coming months.

What I'm really trying to do at the moment is find people who have gone through the rigmarole of getting the Cert of Academic Standing from the BSB, have done the BPTC/BVC, have gotten pupillage, and have gotten tenancy, or are in the process of doing any of the aforementioned so I can gain some perspective from those who have made it the entire way or part thereof.

I have some experience of commercial, having done a few minis and one round of interviews (unsuccessful). First, if you can do the BCL in Oxon. Definitely the best for commercial. Secondly, you probably need to get a Distinction in that and rank highly in your class.

Thirdly, get any mooting experience that you can as soon as possible.

The whole BSB thing is an absolute pain. You really just need to get all the documents together and post them off. Not complicated but very tedious. I got a full exemption as I had studied English Land and English Con Law as past of my LLB.

As I'm sure you are aware by looking at the CVs of commercial pupils, it's incredibly competitive and they often have CVs that will make you cry with self-loathing.

More than other areas commercial sets seem to look for intellectual and critical thinking abilities. The pupils that they recruit direct from masters tend to have stellar academic records.

I'm currently thinking of qualifying as a solicitor first and then transferring a few years down the road when I might be a more attractive prospect.

All commercial sets that I've talked to have said that they don't care about where you do the BPTC or how you do on it. They don't see it as a valuable degree.

I can't think of anything else at the moment. If you have any questions fire away.

Edit: if you are thinking of public, EU and commercial then Brick Court is probably your ideal chambers. To my knowledge they are the only one that does all three and they do very high quality work. However, to give you an idea of the CV of somebody who just got pupillage there: she came top of her law class at Cambridge and then came top (I think, if not top 5) of the LLM there too. So that's your competition.

LutherBlissett

Which types of chambers are you looking to apply to? (I believe there is a barrister chambers equivalent of the "magic circle" over there - would you aim at that, or lower?)

Audacious

234 wrote: »

I have some experience of commercial, having done a few minis and one round of interviews (unsuccessful). First, if you can do the BCL in Oxon. Definitely the best for commercial. Secondly, you probably need to get a Distinction in that and rank highly in your class.

Thirdly, get any mooting experience that you can as soon as possible.

The whole BSB thing is an absolute pain. You really just need to get all the documents together and post them off. Not complicated but very tedious. I got a full exemption as I had studied English Land and English Con Law as past of my LLB.

As I'm sure you are aware by looking at the CVs of commercial pupils, it's incredibly competitive and they often have CVs that will make you cry with self-loathing.

More than other areas commercial sets seem to look for intellectual and critical thinking abilities. The pupils that they recruit direct from masters tend to have stellar academic records.

I'm currently thinking of qualifying as a solicitor first and then transferring a few years down the road when I might be a more attractive prospect.

All commercial sets that I've talked to have said that they don't care about where you do the BPTC or how you do on it. They don't see it as a valuable degree.

I can't think of anything else at the moment. If you have any questions fire away.

Edit: if you are thinking of public, EU and commercial then Brick Court is probably your ideal chambers. To my knowledge they are the only one that does all three and they do very high quality work. However, to give you an idea of the CV of somebody who just got pupillage there: she came top of her law class at Cambridge and then came top (I think, if not top 5) of the LLM there too. So that's your competition.

Thanks for insight!
Yeah I'm looking to do the BCL, or the LLM at Cantab, UCL or LSE.
I've had a good bit of undergrad mooting experience but I will definitely be continuing that during my masters and at the BPTC if possible, and debating too.

The BSB thing is melting my face. You wouldn't have any pointers at the level of detail they are looking for and what you submitted? I'm currently compiling case and statute lists from the topics, and sending them those, the exam papers I sat, every single handout for each subject, module information from the UCC Book of Modules, and transcripts of course too so hopefully that should suffice.


I've seen the calibre of applicant out there and it is scary stuff, that said though realistically I'm not too fussy about the set I get pupillage with as long as it's the area I want to go in to and are reasonably well regarded (those necessity and reality may change this).

I was thinking of maybe applying for a few training contracts as a back up just in case, though I wouldn't be too overjoyed with going down the solicitor route to be honest.

@LutherBlissett: Frankly to maintain some level of pragmatism I'd be applying indiscriminately left, right and centre in the hopes of getting pupillage. That said at the moment I haven't even gotten the Cert of Academic Standing so it's all a bit down the road.

234

When I sent my stuff to the BSB I just sent the reading lists that we were given at the start of each course (usually just lists of cases, statutes and texts without any real narrative info on the page), exam papers and the module description (this was usually just a paragraph or two). From what I've heard they are more than familiar with most Irish degrees and won't really have any issues certifying them.

Also, for pupillage applications, my experience is that it is necessary to do as many minis as possible. During the last round I applied to 12 sets. However, only those that I had done minis in gave me interviews notwithstanding that the ones who rejected me were ranked lower than the ones that I had done minis in.

Audacious

That's not too bad so, it seemed like they wanted everything imaginable.
How long did the entire process take for you, from sending it on to getting the Cert?

234

Audacious wrote: »

That's not too bad so, it seemed like they wanted everything imaginable.
How long did the entire process take for you, from sending it on to getting the Cert?

Maybe two weeks. I just got an email one day telling me that the process had been completed. Another week or so after I got the certificate in the post. £550 is daylight robbery though.

Audacious

234 wrote: »

Maybe two weeks. I just got an email one day telling me that the process had been completed. Another week or so after I got the certificate in the post. £550 is daylight robbery though.

Two weeks! Are you kidding me!
The form said up to 16 weeks and I was crapping myself I wouldn't make it in time. Well that's a relief.
£550 is a disgusting amount of money, I am actually sickened.


Which Inns of Court did you join and why out of interest?
I'm considering Middle seeing that they give everyone an interview for scholarships, though Lincoln does seem to have significantly more money available.

234

Audacious wrote: »

Two weeks! Are you kidding me!
The form said up to 16 weeks and I was crapping myself I wouldn't make it in time. Well that's a relief.
£550 is a disgusting amount of money, I am actually sickened.


Which Inns of Court did you join and why out of interest?
I'm considering Middle seeing that they give everyone an interview for scholarships, though Lincoln does seem to have significantly more money available.

I went with Lincoln's Inn and got a Lord Denning Scholarship which almost covered the cost of the BPTC. Their interviews were relatively informal: some questions on motivation and then they as you to talk about one area of law which they will then question you on and get you to defend your position. You can choose the area so it's not that daunting. Other Inns seem to be more formal in their interviews with set problems or scenarios.

I also went for Lincoln's Inn because it was the most aesthetically pleasing. Gray's Inn is a hole. (Apparently, all the Welsh go there).

Carawaystick

I presume the op means the english&welsh bar, the scots don't have barristers, but that mightn't be a uk issue for long!

234

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume the op means the english&welsh bar, the scots don't have barristers, but that mightn't be a uk issue for long!

If you read the thread it's entirely clear that the OP meant the Bar in E&W. I would assume that to qualify for the Scots Bar you would need to go back to square one and do a Scots law degree. Having done some comparative research on Scots and English law, even in an area as harmonised as contract, there are some substantial differences.

LutherBlissett

And out of curiosity, does it happen that Irish barristers transfer over to English chambers? I know you have to wait a few years (3?) to cross qualify. Does that ever happen?

conorh91

Yes it does, even a retired judge of the High court has gone to practice in the UK, albeit as a door tenant.

Reading this thread, and the process of joining the English Bar, it makes you wonder what is coming down the line for the Irish Bar, after the enactment of the Legal Services Bill.

The proportion of Bar graduates who fail to secure places in chambers is something like 85%. By way of contrast, the Irish route to practice seems like an exercise in sleepwalking.

I suppose that has its advantages and its disadvantages, but after reading this thread, one thing we can't say is that the Irish Bar runs a "closed shop".

LutherBlissett

Yeah I presume it would be possible, even straightforward, for a retired Supreme Court judge to cross over, but does it happen for younger barristers? Anecdotally I've never heard of a young Irish barrister joining a top English chambers, but maybe it has happened...

234

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Yeah I presume it would be possible, even straightforward, for a retired Supreme Court judge to cross over, but does it happen for younger barristers? Anecdotally I've never heard of a young Irish barrister joining a top English chambers, but maybe it has happened...

Because most chambers don't offer a large number of new tenancies. A practitioner from Ireland would not be brining any business with them in terms of solicitor contacts who would brief them regularly.

Whereas a pupil who they have trained in a known quantity, can be given the low end work that a practitioner who was established in Dublin might not be willing to do, etc.

Audacious

Actually it has, Caoilfhionn Gallagher of Doughty St is one example I can think of who went to King's Inns and practices in the UK.