Can you be a Sole Trader in Ireland but live and work abroad?

Jude13

Hi all,

I am currently living in the Middle East working for a multi-national firm. I have been offered the chance to work closer to home (my daughter is in Ireland), France specifically.

The firm is a Northern Irish based firm, a guy I worked with in the past. We have talked about working together again and he needs me to move to France to work.
His (small firm) firm is registered in NI and he would like me to set up as a firm/sole trader in Ireland and work/ live in France. This is fresh off the press so I don't know what the draw backs and pitfalls are.

If either of us set up in France there are huge social charges etc.

Any help would be appreciated.

pedroeibar1

This is highly complex matter and you need professional advice. You need to understand the difference between ‘residence’ and ‘domicile’. There are major tax and Soc Welfare implications for you and also for your business partner. To do anything in France you will need a ‘carte de sejour’ obtained from the Prefecture. Even to tax a car you will need this. To obtain your 'carte' is a process and must be fully supported along the way with documentation from the firm in NI and from you. The admin burden and dealing with the French bureaucracy is a nightmare. Do not be lulled into a false sense of security about EU ‘Single Market’ and free movement of people. (That means nothing in France). Before you tax advice outlay it would be worth buying a book by Genevieve Brame – originally it was ‘Chez-vous en France’ but it has been reissued. Google is yer man!

CelticRambler

If you're an EU citizen, you don't need a carte de séjour and will find it hard to get one - they were abolished more than ten years ago! Living here, with an EU passport, is no problem - you can tax your car, vote in the local/EU elections, sign up at the jobcentre, and pay your bills without any problem. Working here, however, is a completely different story, but there are various ways around the numerous obstacles the French authorities will put in your way. It all depends on the type of business you're planning, where it's going to be located and what ambitions you have for it in the future.

I'll have to disagree with Pedro though - don't waste money buying any book. The rules and regulations here are changing every six months, and what looks right when you pitch your idea can be completely wrong (or no longer an option) when you actual start up. The best, most accesible, sources of up-to-date information are the government websites and their offspring; and be very, very wary of talking to French accountants.

pedroeibar1

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you're an EU citizen, you don't need a carte de séjour and will find it hard to get one - they were abolished more than ten years ago! Living here, with an EU passport, is no problem - you can tax your car, vote in the local/EU elections, sign up at the jobcentre, and pay your bills without any problem. Working here, however, is a completely different story, but there are various ways around the numerous obstacles the French authorities will put in your way. It all depends on the type of business you're planning, where it's going to be located and what ambitions you have for it in the future.

I'll have to disagree with Pedro though - don't waste money buying any book. The rules and regulations here are changing every six months, and what looks right when you pitch your idea can be completely wrong (or no longer an option) when you actual start up. The best, most accesible, sources of up-to-date information are the government websites and their offspring; and be very, very wary of talking to French accountants.

Frankly that’s poor advice and incorrect. The OP asked about working in France, so that is the issue. The carte de séjour has not been abolished, it’s just no longer obligatory. It continues to be available and, as I advised, is very useful to obtain as it will ease the way for many things, particularly when a petty functionnaire does not fully understand the legal requirements and is more attuned to dealing with someone from the Maghreb. The carte is ubiquitous in France and as useful/necessary there as a drivers license is in the US.
The book I recommended is a very useful guide, maybe some of the info will be outdated but there is lots of material that is highly relevant and worthwhile.

CelticRambler

My advice is neither poor nor incorrect, and I work in this area, so I know what I'm talking about. Yes, you can jump through a lot of hoops and convince the Prefecture that you are, in fact, just as much of an immigrant as someone from the Mahgreb or Louisiana or Phuket, but in ten years I have yet to meet a public servant who doesn't know and recognise that EU citizens have the right to set up home or business in France on the strength of their EU passport alone. Having une carte de séjour gives you no advantage whatsoever, and they're so rarely used now that there is a generation of public servants coming through the system now that don't even know what they look like.

The OP hasn't specified whether or not he/she is and EU citizen, which will change things, but his/her concerns about working in France are not going to be changed in any way by having une carte de séjour. Neither will Mme. Brame's very superficial advice help understand what can and cannot be done in respect of the nitty-gritty of running a business, the legal and financial implications of the myriad of régimes, and the significant cultural differences affecting the workplace in France compared to the rest of the world. This is what undermines so many well-meaning, motivated foreign entrepreneurs who try to set up in this country, and none of the other stuff matters if you don't get your head around this first.

Now the OP's question is poorly formulated, because it doesn't make sense to be a sole trader in Ireland if he/she is working for a UK-based company but operating in France, but it's perfectly possible to be a contractor for a UK-based company and provide services to French clients, no carte de séjour necessary. Whether that's an appropriate solution for the OP/the firm depends on what business they're engaged in and how they plan to develop it.

Jude13

Just to clear up, I am an EU citizen (Irish). I have been out of Europe for 6 years.

The plan is to set up a firm in Ireland. Work, as I guess a consultant, for a firm based in NI but the work is in France, hence I would have to live there.

CelticRambler

Once an EU citizen, always an EU citizen. In that case, you have the right to live and work in France without any additional paperwork. Whether or not living in France is the right thing for you is another matter. Most foreign firms that I know that offer services in France offer them all over the country and there's no particular reason why their workers have to live here. In fact, it's often more cost-effective for everyone if they don't, because it can be cheaper and quicker to travel directly from Ireland/UK/Germany than within France, unless you're based in Paris (and there isn't a strike, like there is this week).

pedroeibar1

CelticRambler wrote: »

My advice is neither poor nor incorrect, and I work in this area, so I know what I'm talking about.

Emm... If you’re so expert and correct why did you state that the C de S was ‘abolished when clearly it has not been?
Nor is ‘Once an EU citizen, always an EU citizen’ correct, as adoption of citizenship in another country abnegates EU citizenship.
I've lived and worked in France (among other countries) so I have that T-shirt.

Yes, technically a carte de sejour is legally unnecessary for any EU citizen; however, without one life can be almost impossible. For example, no insurer would cover my car against theft until I had the ‘tattouage’ on the windows, I could not do that until I got a carte grise and I could not get that because ‘they’ wanted a carte de sejour. I had to send a 'lettre recommandée avec accusé de réception' to the Prefect holding the Departement responsible for my loss should my car be stolen. That was done on the advice of DG for Social Affairs in Bruxelles and as a result I got matters sorted. The Departement concerned was not some place in the backwoods.

My initial response to the OP was to get expert advice on how to structure his position; There are huge tax, social welfare and employment implications (contrat à durée indéterminée (CDI) and CDD. The rules on company capitalisation (issued / paid up) in France are totally different to the Irish/UK models.

Finally, legally, the OP cannot be a sole trader in Ireland if he is living/working in France, because a sole tradership has no legal identity, it has the persona of the trader, who plans on living in France. The OP needs professional advice, not a few quick remarks on this Forum. That is the correct answer.

CelticRambler

In ten years living here, I have never, ever, ever met an EU citizen who needed a carte de séjour to insure their car ... but I can give you a list of about twenty French insurance companies who will insure your car (in France, with or without French plates) even if you're not living here.

However, if you want to be pedantic, I will rephrase my original assertion and state that the requirement for EU citizens to have une carte de séjour was abolished over a decade ago. I do live in the backwoods and even here, back then, the local officials knew that it had been done away with.

In any case, the OP does not need une carte de séjour to work in France. The point that needs to be clarified is whether he/she really needs to live in France in order to exercise this particular business activity.

barneystinson

Lads, why don't ye just get them out and measure them...?

(Hmmm, metric or imperial though...?!)

pedroeibar1

Jude13 wrote: »

Just to clear up, I am an EU citizen (Irish). I have been out of Europe for 6 years.

The plan is to set up a firm in Ireland. Work, as I guess a consultant, for a firm based in NI but the work is in France, hence I would have to live there.

Being an EU citizen is a big help. Setting up a firm in Ireland legally and fiscally is very different to being a sole trader. I’m not sure that the way you propose is the most effective.

The hardest part will be organizing the Social Welfare aspects. Nobody can advise you on that aspect without looking at what Soc W contributions you already have made and where paid. What you could consider – if the employment contract is of short duration - is being an employee of the NI company ‘detached’ to a new French entity and remaining on the NI Social Welfare system and remitting the Social Welfare payments (frais sociaux) to N. Ireland . You may need to change ‘employer’ periodically to remain within French employment law as those who are on a rolling contract acquire specific employment rights after defined periods. Expatriation can be a minefield, which is why from the outset I suggested getting professional advice.

As for my mention of Genevieve Brame, she is the senior expat consultant at E&Y Paris and anybody who has read her book would be slow to dismiss it with an offhand comment and most new expats regard it as a bible, (I have an interest, I was President of the Alumni Association of a French business school and involved when the first edition was being written.)

Last thing I say is start improving your French now and consider doing an immersion course specific to your industry. Best of luck, it will be a big change from the ME and inshallah most enjoyable (once you get the admin BS sorted.)

pedronomix

OP, I am in no position to comment on the rights and wrongs of the two main poster here but the complexity of the issue is clear to see. It is also obvious that your particular circumstances will dictate the best solution, such detail is a matter for independent professional expert advice and not a correct path you will find on a public forum. On the upside you have much information to pre-brief yourself on the scope of the advice needed from two experienced posters, so your query on here has been very beneficial.

Jude13

Cheers guys, does anyone have any pointers on a professional who may be able to help me? I will be back in Ireland for two weeks at Christmas, so would hope to get a meeting then.

pedroeibar1

Jude13 wrote: »

Cheers guys, does anyone have any pointers on a professional who may be able to help me? I will be back in Ireland for two weeks at Christmas, so would hope to get a meeting then.

TBH and without being unfair to the accountancy profession in Ireland, that type of advice would not be available here. They will be able to give you general advice, probably obtained from a contact in their French office. You would be best talking direct to one of the Big Four in France. For e.g. last year the French changed the rules for those living in France but working overseas - this ‘caught’ those who lived in France near the Swiss border, were working in Switzerland, avoiding most of the Swiss Soc. Welfare charges and buying cover in France, thereby saving a considerable amount. The new rules are a bit like the concept of COMI (Centre of Main Interest) in Irish bankruptcy law. From what you have posted to date that probably would catch you. Those workers are now in the French Soc. Welfare net and the French insurance ‘agences’ in that area have lost a very sizable chunk of business.

Read up on the difference between ‘residence’ and ‘domicile.' If you eventually want to retire in France, or Ireland, or how many contributions you have paid in PRSI in Ireland (and when), or if you have school-going children all has an big impact on the eventual decision/structure. What you could save in tax by being ‘offshore’ could be lost by a liability to pay university fees for a child. (+/- Irish Unis are ‘free’ to those who have spent four of the last six years in the EU.)

As I said in my first post it is a highly complex area and depends on individual circumstances and desires. Hence my suggestion to go to a Big Four firm in France. As Pedronomix said above you have loads to think about, be as informed as you can before you meet the professional and get a quote from one before you finalize an appointment.