Junior Cert vs Leaving Cert Maths

ray giraffe

Is there is a rule of thumb for deciding if students can do Higher Level Maths for Leaving Cert?

Does this sound right:

A in JC - All students sit Higher Level at LC

B in JC - Nearly all students sit Higher Level at LC

C in JC - Less than a quarter of these students end up sitting Higher Level at LC

D in JC - All students sit Ordinary Level at LC


Do you put C students in the Higher Level class at the beginning of 5th Year?

mirrorwall14

There's no real hard and fast rule. You cannot make a student take OL, only make recommendations. It also depends on the students work ethic in junior cycle and TY.

If it's recommendation to parents you wish to make then a sensible approach to LC might be an easier sell. For example a requirement to pass 4/5 class tests before Christmas fifth year and the Christmas test. If a student has failed almost every test in those four months even while knowing the stakes, then they are losing valuable time at OL and probably aren't fit for a HL

TheDriver

Students ultimately decide if they do HL tho strong recommendation in writing would be made so parents cant blame failures on the school after.

evolving_doors

Parents given 'strong recommendations' by teachers then if they want to take a long shot by all means go ahead.

I know maths inspectors hate to see students LC results with A's in OL... they should have been pushed up to HL according to inspector. Fits the Project Maths 'success' agenda I spse.

Personally I think an A in the old LC OL was nothing to be sniffed at either.

RealJohn

In my experience, on the old course (immediately prior to 'project maths') students who didn't get an A in HL maths in the junior weren't really able for leaving cert HL. There was too big a gap between the junior cert and the leaving cert. 'Project maths' has narrowed that gap a bit so I would say that it's more accessible to B students now. C students are probably still going to struggle.

Ultimately though it'll be up to the students. B or C students who work very hard will do better than an A student who doesn't bother to work.

Raspberry Fileds

I am a non-teacher, and I'm interestesd to know what percentage of Junior Cert Ordinary Level students switch-up to Leaving Cert Higher Maths. Am I right in thinking it's <5%?

evolving_doors

Raspberry Fileds wrote: »

I am a non-teacher, and I'm interestesd to know what percentage of Junior Cert Ordinary Level students switch-up to Leaving Cert Higher Maths. Am I right in thinking it's <5%?

I don;t know if anyone has actually measured that!! Although the chances of switching up could be fairly rare...

Considering it's "built upon" knowledge then the Jc student would have to get a fair few grinds between 3rd yr and 5th to cover lost ground.

I would take a punt at <.5% EDIT: <.05% Re-Edit: <.005%

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

I don;t know if anyone has actually measured that!! Although the chances of switching up could be fairly rare...

Considering it's "built upon" knowledge then the Jc student would have to get a fair few grinds between 3rd yr and 5th to cover lost ground.

I would take a punt at <.5% EDIT: <.05%

I'd say that's a far more accurate figure, although there probably aren't any stats out there for it. In my school those that did OL for Junior Cert do OL for Leaving Cert (or foundation in some cases). Those that got a HL D in Junior tend to struggle with HL LC and drop back to OL in the first few weeks. Some of the C students stay but most go from what I understand.

Raspberry Fileds

Thanks for responses. My own instincts would have said closer to Armelodie's mark, and I just gave the five-percent figure to get you guys started! Has anyone experienced an increase in interest from JC Ord students to sit LC Higher as a result of Maths Bonus Points?

evolving_doors

Raspberry Fileds wrote: »

Thanks for responses. My own instincts would have said closer to Armelodie's mark, and I just gave the five-percent figure to get you guys started! Has anyone experienced an increase in interest from JC Ord students to sit LC Higher as a result of Maths Bonus Points?

just from our school there has been <0% uptake.....

The interest might be there though... for about 10 seconds. In all honesty it would be the pace of the class that would be the clincher, there's so much assumed prior knowledge that you'd have to be re-teaching a good deal for the benefit of one student... it wouldn't be long before the other parents start phoning the school. The only way would be intensive grinds throughout 4th year!!!

rainbowtrout

Raspberry Fileds wrote: »

Thanks for responses. My own instincts would have said closer to Armelodie's mark, and I just gave the five-percent figure to get you guys started! Has anyone experienced an increase in interest from JC Ord students to sit LC Higher as a result of Maths Bonus Points?

No, because while students can take whatever level they want for LC, realistically if they haven't done it for JC a school won't put them into the class for LC. Particularly if there are already enough students to fill the LC HL maths class from those that did HL for JC. If they wanted to do HL maths for the bonus points they'd have stuck it out in HL for Junior Cert.

spurious

There are always exceptions, such as a child who may have been in the HL class and was sick for a lot of 3rd year, so took the OL paper. Most schools would let him/her straight into the HL class, as they are aware of his/her ability regardless of the exam result.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

There are always exceptions, such as a child who may have been in the HL class and was sick for a lot of 3rd year, so took the OL paper. Most schools would let him/her straight into the HL class, as they are aware of his/her ability regardless of the exam result.

I'd agree, but for students who have been in ordinary level for the whole junior cycle, it's almost unheard of for a student to move to higher level. I've never seen it happen in the school I'm in.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd agree, but for students who have been in ordinary level for the whole junior cycle, it's almost unheard of for a student to move to higher level. I've never seen it happen in the school I'm in.

I'm now changing to <.0005% . That would give below 30 students who went crazy and got grinds in 4th yr or were ill on the day of the JC exam and threw a wobbler.

Raspberry Fileds

Thanks for responses.

mirrorwall14

I've seen a few do it maybe 4/5. The only successful ones were those who had done nothing at JC, had the ability, moved up during TY and got grinds during that year.

rainbowtrout

Sample stats:

Junior Cert 2011

HL 25554
OL 26064
FL 4407
Total 56025

Leaving Cert 2013


HL 13014
OL 32165
FL 5677
Total 50856


By and large the students that did JC 11 are the students who did LC 13. There are going to be some discrepancies; students that do TY from JC 11 won't be in this cohort, but presumably would be replaced by students who did TY the year ahead of them and on a large scale, the ability in this cohort is unlikely to have massive variations. There will also be a cohort of repeat students, but that is also the case every year. Also there are students who drop out of school, do LCA, or some other alternative form of education (Youthreach - FETAC etc). From my experience of this particular group they tend to be underachievers/ find the academic system difficult and not typically the ones that you find in the HL maths class.

So going by the stats above, almost half of students who sat HL JC maths dropped it for LC. That's a huge number. I would say it's highly unlikely that any considerable number of these students are have dropped out of school.

About 3.6% of students who sat JC HL maths in 2011 failed the exam. A further 47.2% got a C or D grade at HL. Without having specific data on the students, I would take an educated guess and say that the majority of students who dropped to OL came from this cohort, given that there is roughly a 50% drop in the number of HL students from JC to LC. It doesn't show us where students move up a level, but moving up levels is rare enough in most subjects for LC, but I would say rarest of all in maths, based on personal experience.

ray giraffe

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm now changing to <.0005% . That would give below 30 students

You might want to revise your JC maths :P

30 students out of 25000 doing Ordinary Level at Junior Cert would be 0.12%



I have a student starting 5th year who got a D in JC HL and whose parents want her in the HL class. It's a long shot!

evolving_doors

ray giraffe wrote: »

You might want to revise your JC maths :P

30 students out of 25000 doing Ordinary Level at Junior Cert would be 0.12%



I have a student starting 5th year who got a D in JC HL and whose parents want her in the HL class. It's a long shot!

Ah yeah....I was just doing that to see who was paying attention Ray...(the rest of ye are doing punishment at lunchtime)

Id say theres a good few clingers on now hoping for the bonus points. Makes it tough for the Teacher alright "I still don't get it Sir can you explain it again..."

Then again though, a lot of the language teachers have to differentiate for HL and OL in the one class!