Clothes Dryer

Jellybaby1

I have an old dryer, and it works perfectly fine. It has a big hose thing (sorry I don't know the jargon) that I bung out the window for the steam to escape. I want to move it from the room to under the stairs. Can it be adjusted so it won't steam up my hallway? I don't really want to spend money on a fancy new one when the old one still works. Also the hose has damage at the very outside end of it but it doesn't matter when its out the window. Any advice appreciated.

coylemj

Your existing machine is known as a 'vented' dryer, the alternative is a machine which condenses the moisture internally so they use more electricity. This type of machine is known as a 'condenser' dryer. A field conversion is not possible so you either have to buy a new dryer or allow it to pump the moisture into the interior of the house which in the winter will lead to condensation running down the walls.

The Red Ace

look in Ebay for condensing dryer venting kit its there for about 9 euro, ideally use it with iced water.

Jellybaby1

Thanks for the info. Anyone had any success using that venting kit? Does it work ok without steam leakage?

nmacc

I need to correct coylem here.

The important point about a condensing dryer is that it uses less electricity, not more.

The most costly part of the drying process is changing the state of the water in the clothes from a liquid to a gas. Vented dryers, such as they one you have now, do this in a very wasteful fashion by heating up the clothes, turning the water into vapour and then dumping the vapour out of the house, and the heat with it.

Condensing dryers by contrast use heat to evaporate the water, but then they condense it again in a heat exchanger and recover this heat to be used to evaporate more water. This way they recover a lot of the energy used to dry the clothes. They don't blow out vapour, but capture the water, or in some models run it to drain.

Even if your existing dryer is working perfectly I would look seriously at replacing it, as the savings in electricity will be considerable if you change to a condensing dryer.

ArnieSilvia

Not so sure about efficiency, my new B rated Candy condenser dryer was a big disappointment when I found that instead of recovering heat it blows it into the room (what a joke :mad:) making it super hot. Partially yes, it takes back the heat from the air in the room but it's not what it should be surely?

nmacc

All you can do is work the maths.

The A, B, C rating system is a bit iffy in that the manufacturers can estimate usage differently in their labels. Such as one calculating cost based on one hour a day, every day, another on maybe three hours a week, etc. You can be guaranteed that the manufacturers of the inefficient machines will do their best to make the figures as flattering (deceiving) as possible. Just like the mobile operators making it difficult to compare their packages.

If your Candy is blowing out hot air then it either doesn't have a sensor, or the sensor isn't working. It's essential that a condenser dryer has a sensor to detect when the clothes are dry. The dryer will deliver very little heat while the clothes are damp, as nearly all the energy goes into phase change - that is - changing the state of the damp in the clothes from liquid to gas. Once that has been accomplished that energy is no longer needed to dry the clothes and the outlet air temperature rises rapidly. It's at this point that the dryer needs to shut down.

I used to have a non-sensor dryer & it drove me crazy as I kept forgetting the thing was on and would come back into the kitchen and find it roasting; it used to give me a serious pain in the wallet!

Jellybaby1

I am glad to get all this information. As I have to move the dryer anyway it looks like I need to think about a new one and I don't want to buy a pig in a poke but I don't have a clue. Are they very expensive these days?

danjo-xx

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I am glad to get all this information. As I have to move the dryer anyway it looks like I need to think about a new one and I don't want to buy a pig in a poke but I don't have a clue. Are they very expensive these days?

Power city prices start from €228 but I'd go for a band name like Zanussi

http://www.powercity.ie/index.php?par=40-10&cat=FreeStanding%20Laundry%20,%20Cooking,%20Cooling%20%20,%20Vacuums%20,%20%20Steam%20Cleaners&action=brandstory

Jellybaby1

Thanks I'll start looking around in the next few weeks. Really wasn't even thinking of replacing my dryer as its the one thing in the house that never gave me any trouble except for shoving the hose out the window which although awkward, it worked! Thanks all.

The Red Ace

nmacc I am interested in your advice re replacing the old dryer with a new one but I would like to see your breakdown in savings by replacing the old with new. A new dryer will have a lifespan if you are lucky of appox five years, a condenser t/d will cost 300euro upwards to buy plus it has a heating element of the same wattage as the vented dryer and will need to be serviced more often than the vented system , I would like to know what you reckon the savings would be over the life of the replacement t/d

nmacc

How much you save depends on how much you use it. The element size is irrelevant frankly, as long as it dries the clothes without taking an age to do it.

You need to figure out how often you need to use it & go from there. Start with the manufacturer's figures. If you go to the Beko web site you will see that a 7kg C rated vented dryer will use 514kWh per year, while an 8kg A+ rated condensing dryer will use 299, or approximately half the electricity per kg.

Mind you, I think the A+ is probably outrageously expensive and won't pay back the difference in any reasonable time, but that's the kind of difference involved. A condenser dryer with a top-mounted condensate drawer will have a condensate pump, absent from a vented dryer, so yes, there is more to go wrong, but I couldn't put a figure on it.

If you do dry a lot of clothes then for the lowest running costs you can't beat a gas dryer, but there are very few of them out there. It's slightly cheaper to buy them from the UK & have them delivered. But a gas dryer MUST be vented.

ArnieSilvia

nmacc wrote: »

If your Candy is blowing out hot air then it either doesn't have a sensor, or the sensor isn't working. It's essential that a condenser dryer has a sensor to detect when the clothes are dry. The dryer will deliver very little heat while the clothes are damp, as nearly all the energy goes into phase change - that is - changing the state of the damp in the clothes from liquid to gas. Once that has been accomplished that energy is no longer needed to dry the clothes and the outlet air temperature rises rapidly. It's at this point that the dryer needs to shut down.

The problem is, that it is a sensor dryer, it turns off when clothes are dry. Problem with it is that it is not recirculating hot air after it went through the condenser. I thought that these dryers would re-circulate the hot air that passes through the clothes, into fluff filter, into condenser and sending back dry hot air to dry clothes

Am I correct that these A+ heat pump dryers re-circulate hot air?

The Red Ace

nmacc I was expecting an answer that would explain how much the user could save in Euro over a week/month/or year by replacing the working vented dryer with a condenser dryer because you did say do the maths. Actually I think an hour in a workshop where you would see a dryer stripped down and see what makes it tick would be beneficial to your theory of how it works. Thanks for your explanations but I have spent a lifetime repairing them .

nmacc

ArnieSilvia wrote:
"Am I correct that these A+ heat pump dryers re-circulate hot air?"

On that I can't help you. It is my understanding and experience that they do, but Red Ace might be the one to ask as he says he has a lifetime's experience of taking them apart.

As for a "an answer that would explain how much the user could save in Euro over a week/month/or year", you can use the figures I provided previously and multiply them by your own cost-per-kWh. Alternately you might need to contact one of the manufacturers. I haven't done an exact comparison of operating costs as you describe, but as an engineer I do have an understanding of the hidden costs of latent heat, and that's the position from which I approach it.

SpaceTime

Three types of condenser dryer exist:

1) The usual type - Air-cooled condenser.
The dryer circulates the warm moist air through a heat exchanger in the bottom. That has air from the room blowing through and cooling it. The dryer basically uses your room as a heat-sink and it will definitely heat it up. It has to lose the heat to condense the water by cooling the air as it recirculates through the heat exchanger.

2) Water-cooled condensers
These are commonly used in washer dryers. The machine will spray in some cold water / drip it in to the condenser to create a heat sink to cool the hot moist air and get the water to fall out of it.

3) Heat Pump Dryers - The most efficient

These are the A rated machines today.
You basically have what amounts to a dehumidifier or air conditioner in the base (i.e. a heat pump).

Air is drawn from the drum through the condenser. It hits a cold section where the moisture quickly condenses out. Then, the heat that was removed from that air is used to re-heat the air on its way back into the drum.

So, you have basically the same energy being moved from the hot side to the cold side all the time and the air just keeps recirculating through the drum and the moisture's basically forced out.

The big advantage is that they're a lot less power-hungry than any other type of dryer.
Secondly they do not heat the room very much.
Thirdly they're very gentle on clothes as they do not need to use much heat and condense very efficiently.

Downside is some of them can be a little slow, although that very much depends on the make and model. The high end ones are quite fast (faster than traditional condensers).

They're also possibly less of a fire hazard as there's no serious heating elements involved.

nmacc

Now that IS a comprehensive answer and puts me to shame, so I had to go back & do a little reading. You might say it's the reading I should have done in the first place.

I've looked at the figures quoted by Beko, as an economy model, and Bosh as a more sophisticated one and I've used Power City as a convenient price check. All dryers are 7kg models for the purposes of comparison and I've used the manufacturer's annual consumption figures.

The technical results are interesting and remarkably similar.

The Beko base model vented dryer is the DRVT71W at €168.95. It is C-rated and uses 514kWh per year.
The basic Beko condenser is the DC7110W at €228.95; it's also C-rated and used 564kWh per year. There is a DCU7230, which is B-rated and uses 504kWh priced at €288.95, but part of this price may be due to the silver colour.
The Beko heat pump dryer DPU8360 ia A+ at €428.95 & uses 299kWh per year.

The Bosch range can be summed up by the vented C-rated WTA74200 at €351 & 482kWh per year;
the condenser B-rated WTE8140 at €369 & 504kWh and the A+ rated heat pump WTW84161 at €689 and 212kWh per year.

So what does all this info tell us?

One of the first points is that the difference in consumption between the vented and heat pump is dramatic. In the Beko case it's 215kWh per year and for Bosch it's 270kWh per year. The second point is that regular condenser dryers appear to use MORE electricity than vented dryers.

If you look at the figures in detail it can be seen that there are B-rated condenser dryers that use more electricity than their C-rated stable-mates. This confused me for a while, but it makes sense when you think that all of the heat pumped into a vented dryer goes out through a hole in the wall, while all of the heat in a condenser dryer stays in the house. Hardly an efficient way of heating the house, but it's not wasted unless your dryer is in the shed or garage.
As for why a condenser dryer running the same number of drying cycles as a vented dryer should use more electricity when the process should theoretically be more efficient, I can't say. Perhaps Space Time might be able to shed some light on this.

So, down the important stuff, money. It depends of course on how much you're paying for your electricity, but mine is costing me close to €0.20 per kWh including VAT. SEAI take other costs into account and they seem to come out a bit closer to €0.24 over all.

At 20c per unit it costs €43 less to run the Beko heat pump dryer compared with the vented model. The price difference is €260, so on that basis the payback period is 6 years, or 5 years if you're paying 24c per unit. That assumes no increase in electricity prices, so the real payback period is going to be less than 5 years. In the Beko case it's a no-brainer, the heat pump model is definitely the way to go.

The Bosch case is almost the same and it will take nearly 6 years & 3 months to recover the additional cost. The Bosh is a lot more expensive, but has other gimmicks like a self-cleaning condenser, etc. Only time (or Space Time) can tell if those work.

What is very interesting (and slightly embarrassing) is that in the Beko case a simple, non-heat pump condenser dryer seems to be a bad investment. Buying the C-rated Beko DC7110W from Power City at €228.95 will save €200 over the heat pump model, but at 20c a unit the payback period for the better model is only 3 years & 9 months. In other words, you might be better off drying your clothes by heating them with burning piles of cash.

In the Bosch case the WTE8140GB B-rated dryer is only €18 more than the vented equivalent, but the small difference in consumption means that the payback period for the heat pump dryer drops to 5 years and 6 months.

In summary, if you have to put the dryer in the shed, then a cheap vented dryer is better than a basic condenser model, if you have a thermostat on the radiator in your kitchen then a basic condenser model makes sense as the heat stays in the house, but in all cases if you can raise the money without paying credit card rates, then a heat pump condenser dryer is a better deal.

SpaceTime

Be careful of Bosch dryers. Ours was VERY expensive but doesn't reverse the drum during the cycle. It means that big items like sheets become tangled into a ball and dont dry!

Very basic feature and I'm actually shocked they don't have it. It's like buying an expensive TV and finding it has no remote control. Huge oversight in the design.

We had an Electrolux dryer and it's way better! I'd say look into alternatives to Bosch their dryers aren't all that great in my experience.

The self cleaning condenser is a gimmick and the machine can't be connected to a drain. Most others can. Saves you having to poor heavy water tanks down the drain.

Also the build quality was poor. The handle snapped off the door in normal use!

I couldn't recommend them.

Electrolux seemed very good in comparison and it's similarly priced.

Miele is really good but your looking at paying a grand for a dryer.

whizbang

The difference in running costs between the B & C rated units are basically down to running time per load.

Some of the cheaper condenser driers are painfully slow.

As to the Op's questions, the 'JML' style venting kit is rubbish. Knock a hole in the wall.

coylemj

nmacc wrote: »

I need to correct coylem here.

The important point about a condensing dryer is that it uses less electricity, not more.

nmacc wrote: »

..... The second point is that regular condenser dryers appear to use MORE electricity than vented dryers.

I kinda knew the truth would out eventually. The heat pump models are the most energy efficient but the basic condenser uses more juice than the vented models which is what I said the first place. Otherwise nobody would buy a vented model.

SpaceTime

The vented models are much faster and gentler than the 'traditional' condenser too.

To condense the water, the machine has to lose the heat from the air somehow. So, it's constantly trying to dump it into the room via the vents on the bottom of the machine. The steam doesn't get out (at least not unless the machine's utterly rubbish) but the heat does.

If the house is quite cold, the condensation system will work well. If it's quite warm, or if the room's closed and the heat's building up, the condenser won't work as efficiently and the cycle will take a lot longer.

The heat pump version doesn't have this problem and dries more like a vented machine without producing any significant heat into the room.

If I were buying one, I'd skip the 'traditional condensers' entirely. They don't work all that well and your clothes won't last as long.

Condensers also definitely run an awful lot hotter when drying than either vented or heat pump machines.

Also, if you want to save energy and not wreck your clothes, make sure you get a sensor dryer. They're pretty good at this stage. It just means that you set something like "Cottons - Damp Iron, Dry, Cupboard Dry or Dry+" and the machine senses when the water content of the clothes reaches a preset, then cools and stops (and usually beeps).

The cheaper / older dryers just used a timer and guess work so you could be over-drying things or just wasting loads of energy tumbling dry clothes around in hot air for no reason.

Jellybaby1

That's right, my old machine has a timer and two heat settings. I usually just turn the dial for 30 or 40 mins or an hour if necessary. I never really know if they are dry earlier.

nmacc

coylemj wrote: »

Otherwise nobody would buy a vented model.

This is Ireland. If you offer a machine for €10 less than one that costs €20 less to run, you'll be killed in the rush.

coylemj

nmacc wrote: »

This is Ireland. If you offer a machine for €10 less than one that costs €20 less to run, you'll be killed in the rush.

+1 but not just Ireland. Most people don't look at the 'total cost of ownership'.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

+1 but not just Ireland. Most people don't look at the 'total cost of ownership'.

That's true, especially when you consider the life of a machine.

SpaceTime

Especially with anything that's high energy consumption.

The Red Ace

just after having a read as to how the tumble dryer saga has progressed from the initial question re the vented dryer exhaust problem. a lot has been discussed about the pros and cons of the different systems and what the user can save by buying the most efficient model and looking at the amount of hits which is at nearly c700 it clearly interests a lot of folk. I did question nmacc what the savings might be by replacing the old vented dryer and fair enough he replied by quoting the different kwh ratings between the different dryers but I don't think the user would have saved anything by replacing the old with new because of the short lifespan of a lot of what is now available especially as the old one still worked. The old models did run on because the timers were initially clockwork timers and later electromechanical whereas now we have modules with microprocessors which can sense when the required temp is reached and then shut down but these also come at a price, within the last week I had a customer with a faulty 4 year old B rated condenser dryer that turned out to have a faulty module/pcb, no big deal in the actual fitting of a replacement unit but its trade cost was E239 plus vat. another one for the scrap heap. With regards to A rated heat pump dryers they may be the most efficient but when they go wrong forget about asking on Boards.ie for a quick fix as these have refrigeration units which require specialised equipment if they go wrong and I don't think the average service engineer will have this gear so its back to the main agent and get it fixed at their price, but its up to each individual what their requirements are, much the same as why one guy drives a 50k motor and another quite happy with one for a few grand .

SpaceTime

Nothing wrong with electronics. They can be extremely reliable.

Electromechanical timers are as or more likely to go wrong and can be very expensive too.

My folks have a 25 year old Miele dryer which is fully electronic and sensor controlled.

25 years of heavy use and it's never given an ounce of trouble.

Vented BTW.

Miele is very expensive upfront but they last for decades