Issue with ban/moderator

roryc

Hi,

I have a growing issue with the main moderator on the Fantasy Sports Forum - Futureguy. In reality my issue lies with one poster, but if the moderator continues to moderate as he does I can't see how I can continue posting. I'd like to preface this by saying I respect the job he does on the forum, especially when it comes to troublesome posters.

I was banned for a week back in February for writing 'Happy Betting Folks' in reply to this poster. Since then I don't think I've replied to a single post of his, despite this poster trying to engage me on a daily/weekly basis. After trying to follow Futureguys 'advice' a number of times, reporting his posts etc, I realised it was a waste of time as little was ever done, so I figured the best course of action would just be to totally ignore the poster. As I said, I don't think I've replied to a single post of his since February, which on a forum as small as ours hasn't been easy. Especially when he constantly tries to engage me.

On Tuesday I accidentally replied to him thinking it was another poster. As soon as I realised my mistake (and saw his response) I almost deleted the post, but then thought the best course of action would be to report it and drop FG a PM. Unfortunately this turned out to be a total waste of time. Below is the PM.

Hi FG,

I reported this post yesterday, not sure if you've seen it yet - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...postcount=2428

Not happy if this doesn't result in a ban. My post wasn't meant to provoke, to be honest I thought I was replying to Busts. You might not believe that but consider the fact that I don't think I've replied to any of Lemlin's posts since last season, for this exact reason. I've no interest in discussing anything with him, depsite him constantly trying to engage me, or wind me up by referring to me in other posts. I work in the betting industry and when I think I'm right I'll offer a wager. It's not a d*ck swinging contest but I find it ensures people think before they speak, or in this case post. Me offering to have a 'friendly wager' is not restricted to Lemlin, I've offered it numerous times on this forum, so the fact that I've accidentally replied to him does not imply I was trying to get him involved in an argument. As with practically every issue that has occurred since mid-way through last season, this is totally one sided. He is again trying to instigate this crap.

Back in February you sent me this in a PM - "If you step out of line you will get a 1 month ban. Same with Lemlin"

I haven't responded to the post but how can the above not happen after he drags up the main thread and post that caused all the hassle in the first place?

The result of the above was a two week ban. For both of us... I respect FG is modding the forum for free but can't really get my head around how (yet again) giving the same punishment to both is fair when I'm clearly trying to avoid this poster. With regards the wager, as I said to FG I work in the betting industry so its not uncommon for me to do this. I find when there's money or some other form of wager on the line people tend to speak sense! Here's a post from After Hours a month ago where I did the same, obviously without a ban.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91409282&postcount=1494

Here's another from the Soccer Forum from a while back, again, without a ban

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59498797&postcount=312

So I'm unsure what my ban from Fantasy Sports is for? It can't be for offering a wager as this isn't against the forum charter. And if it's for replying to Lemlin, I'd like you to consider the fact that it was an honest mistake, something that should be backed up by the fact that I've clearly made an effort to never reply to him!! He's constantly had little digs at me since I took the decision to ignore him, why would I reply to a random comment after 7 months!? And again, I took the course of action that FG asked me to (a long time ago) and didn't respond. I reported the post, and PM'd the moderator. Lemlin took his chance to get yet another dig in and drag up an old post, and we get the same punishment? It's getting to the stage where taking the higher ground is absolutely pointless, as we'll both get the same ban regardless of how I act.

I'm trying to make FG's life easier on the forum, I'm lost as to why he can't see this. I've been there since the start and would consider myself one of the main contributors, but if I'm honest I can't see myself continuing to post there if this decision is upheld. I don't even mind getting a ban if FG feels my mistake really warrants one, but to give the same ban to both of us is only going to result in driving me away. I'm sick of feeling like I'm walking on ice posting on that forum.

Myrddin

Hi roryc, this will be looked at at some stage this evening or tomorrow...just bear with us please

Sierra Oscar

Hi roryc,

I have looked into this matter for you.

I do recognize and understand that you have a strained relationship with another forum user. However I must say that I stand over the moderation action that FutureGuy took which, as you point out, resulted in a two-week ban for not only you but also another forum member. I think it is unreasonable for you to expect that a punishment for another forum member should be harsher, while being more lenient for you, when both bans were issued for failing to ignore a moderators instruction regarding previous issues. I think a two week ban was sufficient in both instances to serve as a reminder of the forum rules. I would note that you do have a number of previous warnings and infractions, so you should realize that the course of action that you took would have resulted in moderation action being taken. You have mentioned that you made the reply by accident, but at the end of the day the reply was made and a forum rule was broken - and accordingly moderation action was taken. I am sure that other forum users would take issue with the actions of the moderation team if bans were handed out more disproportionately at the request of forum users.

It is clear that a clash of personalities is involved here, and I would remind you that you can use the 'Ignore User' feature if you feel that this would improve your experience on the forum.

roryc

Thanks - so trying to avoid confrontations and following mods instructions by reporting posts will have the exact same result as replying to a troll in kind and derailing threads. Appreciate you guys clarifying for me, will bear this in mind in future.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I am sure that other forum users would take issue with the actions of the moderation team if bans were handed out more disproportionately at the request of forum users.

I am sure that most people would want common sense to prevail when one poster is clearly trying to follow mod instructions, while the other is simply being a troll dragging up old threads.

One final point - I know its a waste of time to dispute this but I'm interested in hearing which 'forum rule' I broke by accidentally replying to a poster that I have (successfully) managed to avoid for over 7 months.

Sierra Oscar

Hi roryc,

I do recognise that you followed the correct procedures regarding the reporting of posts, and that is something that we do appreciate greatly. You make many fine contributions to the forum and we genuinely want to see you continue to participate on the forum.

However I do know that the moderation team did take into account the background circumstances of this case when deciding on a course of action to take, and also took into account the previous disciplinary actions that were taken in respect of both users.

It is not a waste of time to dispute this, and your concerns have been taken on board and noted for the future. However regarding the previous action taken I do think that it was fair to both users. You have to recognise that if we did follow through on your demands we would be dealing with the same sort of dispute in this forum - just from the other users perspective. We have to draw a line somewhere, and we have to be fair and impartial after having taken into account the previous circumstances and user history.

Regarding the rule that was broken - it was for not following a moderators instructions that were issued following a previous dispute. You say that you made the reply by accident, but please recognise that it is very difficult for us to verify this. All we know is that the reply was made and we had to take appropriate action.

I can assure you that we will continue to monitor this matter, and your concerns will be taken on board.

roryc

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You say that you made the reply by accident, but please recognise that it is very difficult for us to verify this. All we know is that the reply was made and we had to take appropriate action.

Yet again I would use the argument that common sense is being ignored here. If my aim was to start up an old argument, why would I not retaliate after the inital (harmless) post? It's clear as day I replied to the wrong post, backed up by the fact that I immediately PM'd the moderator. Why would start an argument, let him get a free dig at me and not respond?? Your line of thinking here makes no sense. I've gained nothing from this. There's plenty of things I could post back, instead I took the higher ground and reported it under the assumption that FG would see the situation for what it is. Unfortunately he took one look at Lemlins post and handed us the same ban. Seems to me like it was a decision that he gave about 2 seconds of thought to due to our history.

As I said above I don't think I'll be posting much on the forum anymore if this is the way it will be modded. I've had Lemlin on ignore in the past but other posters end up reposting his little digs to ensure I see them, so it ends up being pointless. I've managed to ignore him for the best part of this year so to get a two week ban for an accidental post which didn't even have a trace of abuse is a bit of an insult.

Appreciate you looking at this but I think it needs to get passed on to an Admin, if only to highlight the precedent thats being set. Reporting posts and not responding to an attack will get you the exact same punishment as jumping in headfirst and replying in kind.

Sierra Oscar

roryc wrote: »

It's clear as day I replied to the wrong post, backed up by the fact that I immediately PM'd the moderator.

To be honest roryc, I don't think that you 'immediately' PM'd the moderator in question. The information that we have at hand clearly illustrates that there was approximately a twelve hour period between when you made the post and when you followed up through a private message with the moderator. You could have made an edit to the post immediately, but that did not occur. As I said earlier it is very difficult, if not impossible, for us to evaluate whether you made the post 'by accident'. We can only make a decision based on the facts presented to us, and the fact of the matter is that the post was made.

roryc wrote: »

Unfortunately he took one look at Lemlins post and handed us the same ban. Seems to me like it was a decision that he gave about 2 seconds of thought to due to our history.

I don't think that is a fair assessment. I do know that FutureGuy spent quite a number of hours trawling through the post history regarding this issue before taking action - and took into account everything, including prior user disciplinary history, before making a decision. I have also spent the better part of my weekend reviewing this matter.

All reported posts are dealt with through peer moderation, and we always make an effort to be fair and consistent. In this case two users, who had been previously warned about engaging with one another in a non-constructive manner, failed to follow a moderators instructions and appropriate disciplinary action was taken which we believe was fair to both forum users.

roryc wrote: »

Appreciate you looking at this but I think it needs to get passed on to an Admin, if only to highlight the precedent thats being set. Reporting posts and not responding to an attack will get you the exact same punishment as jumping in headfirst and replying in kind.

And I do appreciate that you have followed the correct procedures, but all the same the matter was evaluated by the moderator team and just because you made a request for a harsher punishment for another user through the correct channels does not mean that your request was well grounded.

I still stand over the decision that FutureGuy took, and I would be happy to have an administrator review this matter if that is what you want.

roryc

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

To be honest roryc, I don't think that you 'immediately' PM'd the moderator in question. The information that we have at hand clearly illustrates that there was approximately a twelve hour period between when you made the post and when you followed up through a private message with the moderator. You could have made an edit to the post immediately, but that did not occur. As I said earlier it is very difficult, if not impossible, for us to evaluate whether you made the post 'by accident'. We can only make a decision based on the facts presented to us, and the fact of the matter is that the post was made.

Apologies, what I should have said was I reported the post immediately as soon as I saw I had replied to the wrong poster. I didn't realise my mistake until Lemlin replied, and I reported it, following up with a PM the next morning in case the reported post was missed. It's a moot point anyway - I followed the procedure that FG has asked me to in the past, and it is looking like it was entirely pointless. You have already agreed I followed the correct procedure.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I don't think that is a fair assessment. I do know that FutureGuy spent quite a number of hours trawling through the post history regarding this issue before taking action - and took into account everything, including prior user disciplinary history, before making a decision. I have also spent the better part of my weekend reviewing this matter.

Are you sure about that? A number of hours? Which post history did he spend a number of hours reviewing? This relates to one post in one thread. Are you sure you weren't mistaken in the comment above? Common sense would dictate that you made an honest mistake but it is very difficult, if not impossible, for me to evaluate whether you made the post 'by accident'.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

All reported posts are dealt with through peer moderation, and we always make an effort to be fair and consistent. In this case two users, who had been previously warned about engaging with one another in a non-constructive manner, failed to follow a moderators instructions and appropriate disciplinary action was taken which we believe was fair to both forum users.

So you agree that this issue appears to have been dealt with at face value? We were told not to engage with each other, we did, case closed? To state that you believe the disciplinary action was fair to both sides is (again) insulting. One of us has tried not to engage the other. Ever. And has followed moderators instructions in reporting posts etc. I accidentally reply to a single post with something that contained absolutely no abuse, of any kind. Now the other poster. Constantly tries to engage me on the forum despite me explicitiy asking him not to. Insinuates I'm a liar (again) and drags up old posts which he had previously been banned for. I could go on? Perhaps we have vastly different opinions of what the word 'fair' represents.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

And I do appreciate that you have followed the correct procedures, but all the same the matter was evaluated by the moderator team and just because you made a request for a harsher punishment for another user through the correct channels does not mean that your request was well grounded.

I still stand over the decision that FutureGuy took, and I would be happy to have an administrator review this matter if that is what you want.

Yes please. As I said its sets a precedent when reporting posts and not responding to an attack will get you the exact same punishment as jumping in headfirst and replying in kind. I don't want to discuss this any more with either yourself or FutureGuy as its clear that you are both in agreement on upholding the original decision.

Thanks for taking the time out to review this - I know its a free and generally thankless job you guys do, but I think you will admit yourself you can't be right all the time! And in ten years posting on Boards I think this is the one time you guys have definitely dropped the ball... At least say that FG is sick of dealing with us so banned us both without properly reviewing the matter. Trying to say the decision is fair is insulting not only myself but the whole modding process.

Sierra Oscar

roryc wrote: »

Apologies, what I should have said was I reported the post immediately as soon as I saw I had replied to the wrong poster. I didn't realise my mistake until Lemlin replied, and I reported it, following up with a PM the next morning in case the reported post was missed.

Well the sands seem to be shifting here somewhat. The fact remains that it is next to impossible for us to evaluate as to whether the post was made 'by accident' - we only know that the post was made despite the previous instructions that were issued by a moderator. Accordingly we had to take appropriate action in respect of all parties, and if we didn't I am sure other users would continue to have grievances.

roryc wrote: »

I followed the procedure that FG has asked me to in the past, and it is looking like it was entirely pointless. You have already agreed I followed the correct procedure.

FutureGuy had issued an instruction that you and another forum user did not adhere to, and appropriate action had to be taken.

roryc wrote: »

Are you sure about that? A number of hours? Which post history did he spend a number of hours reviewing? This relates to one post in one thread. Are you sure you weren't mistaken in the comment above? Common sense would dictate that you made an honest mistake but it is very difficult, if not impossible, for me to evaluate whether you made the post 'by accident'.

Yes, I am sure about that. You are now saying that this post relates to one post / thread alone, whereas earlier you went to great lengths to try and explain the background history from your perspective. Regardless the moderator team always takes into account the past history, including posting and disciplinary history, before making a decision. I can assure you that this procedure was also followed in this case. An instruction had been issued to two posters, you being one of the users, and these instructions were not adhered to. Accordingly moderator action was taken in line with a previous warning that had been issued.

roryc wrote: »

So you agree that this issue appears to have been dealt with at face value?

No, I believe that I have went to great lengths to point out that the past posting and disciplinary history was taken into account before any action was taken.

roryc wrote: »

We were told not to engage with each other, we did, case closed? To state that you believe the disciplinary action was fair to both sides is (again) insulting. One of us has tried not to engage the other. Ever.

You are being economical with the truth here. In recent weeks you have indirectly commented on the other users poor start to the season, which is also considered to be trolling.

roryc wrote: »

And has followed moderators instructions in reporting posts etc. I accidentally reply to a single post with something that contained absolutely no abuse, of any kind.

Again it is very difficult or next to impossible for us to evaluate as to whether the post was made 'by accident'. The fact is that the post was made, and appropriate action had to be taken.

roryc wrote: »

. I don't want to discuss this any more with either yourself or FutureGuy as its clear that you are both in agreement on upholding the original decision.

That's fine, but I would remind you that you and the other forum user had been warned in the past that if you brought up your previous arguments with each other you would both receive a ban - as ended up being the case.

I will leave it for an administrator to review this matter further.

roryc

I agree, it's impossible to tell whether the post was made by accident, I have never stated otherwise although I am confused as to why you feel the need to continue to put 'by accident' in inverted commas? As I've said a number of times I assumed common sense would prevail. What did I gain from the interaction? If I wanted an argument why would I not respond in kind? These are the main points you need to consider. Nobody can prove it one way or the other, but I think most would agree that my actions after realising I replied to the wrong post were not that of someone who wanted to restart an old argument. It doesn't add up. You are trying to poke holes in this by saying the 'sands are shifting' because I got a bit mixed up on a moot point of when I sent the PM, but the above point is the only one that matters. Were my actions consistent with someone who wanted to start an argument? If the answer is no, should I be punished as if they were?

I would prefer if you didn't indirectly call me a liar by saying I am being 'economical with the truth'. I don't have access to posts from the FS Forum while I'm banned, but for the sake of argument could you please post here every time I have initiated an interaction with Lemlin (either directly or indirectly) since February? I would happily go through it myself but as I said I don't have access. I think it's important to clarify how much one of us has been avoiding the other. I won't ask you to go through all the times Lemlin has tried to engage me, as there would literally be hundreds since February. I would appreciate if you could do the above (as I cant). Cards on the table, I've nothing to hide!

Appreciate the time you guys have put into this, will wait for the Admin to respond. While I agree you need to take appropriate action, you surely realise that by equally punishing someone who is clearly attempting to follow the correct procedure you are effectively discouraging posters from doing so in future? Had I replied in kind I would have received the same ban so why bother reporting posts at all?

Sierra Oscar

Hi roryc, I just want to confirm that I have requested for an admin to review this matter.

roryc

Thanks. Wasn't intending to get in a long debate with you but this is the first issue I've had in almost a decade posting on Boards that I've wanted to go to an Admin.

LoLth

Hi, I'm LoLth and I'll be your admin today....

I've had a look at this thread and I've looked at the thread that got the ban.

You responded to a Lemlin post, quoting it and offering a bet.
- you claim this was done in error and that you intended to reply to iused2likebusts . thing is, that's not how the thread reads. It is far more fitting, in terms of conversation flow, that you were replying to Lemlin . Thing is, that's besides the point, you replied to Lemlin despite an ongoing mod warning. No inverted commas , no guessing of intention on my part. pure fact.

you and Lemlin previously had argument that ended with a mod warning consequences.

you agreed not to respond to Lemlin in future.

you responded.

the mod imposed the ban, as warned.

I'm sure you think its unfair but I would counter with the fact that you have not done all you can to avoid conflict with Lemlin. if you just took the simple step of putting him on ignore you *could not* have replied to a post of his. (you obviously don't have him on ignore because you quoted his post in your reply).

You think you should not have received the same ban length as Lemlin ? why? you were both warned. You both broke the agreement that essentially allowed you continued access to the forum. You both get the same punishment.

As for Lemlin, I will be advising the mods that from this point on, any goading or smartarsery from either of you toward the other will receive an instant red card. If it continues, the instigator will be banned. If, as you say, he has tried to instigate an argument with you hundreds of times then the card system will show it up a lot easier going forward.

Now. if you wish to continue using that forum once your ban is up, I would suggest you use the option in the user control panel to ignore the user Lemlin and all posts made by him. Just click on Lemlin's name and select "add user to ignore list". All of this could have been avoided if you just did that in the first place.

Ban upheld.

roryc

Thanks. I didn’t expect for you to decide otherwise and no point in continuing to debate it when all three of you are standing firm on the original decision. Appreciate you answering (eventually) but I obviously can’t agree with the outcome. A disproportionate response should receive a disproportionate ban. It’s difficult to do the opposite and try to maintain (four times) a position of fairness. But then it's not really for you to decide on whether you think upholding your own decision is fair. This thread has had enough views that people can make their own mind up.

If I still post on the forum I’ll continue to ignore this poster, but this has highlighted the futility of reporting posts or taking the higher ground when he inevitably starts this up again. Don’t take this as me saying I will intentionally have a go at him, but I see no absolutely benefit in reporting his posts or PM’ing the mods again if there's an issue. You mention that I agreed not to respond to Lemlin. I've received a ban all three times I have responded to him this year. Why has he not received a ban every time he has responded to one of my posts? He does this very regularly. Will he get a yellow card every time he responds to one of my posts moving forward?

A strange precedent has been set that could have easily been avoided using a little common sense.

LoLth wrote: »

I would suggest you use the option in the user control panel to ignore the user Lemlin and all posts made by him. Just click on Lemlin's name and select "add user to ignore list". All of this could have been avoided if you just did that in the first place.

Just to add, this is a cracking line. It should be quoted to all people that end up getting bans by reacting to trolls - "Well its your own fault for not ignoring him"

LoLth

roryc wrote: »

If I still post on the forum I’ll continue to ignore this poster, but this has highlighted the futility of reporting posts

no it hasn't. you didn't report a post that was wrong, you reported your own post which was made despite a mod warning previously.

or taking the higher ground when he inevitably starts this up again. Don’t take this as me saying I will intentionally have a go at him, but I see no absolutely benefit in reporting his posts or PM’ing the mods again if there's an issue.

put him on ignore and you wont see his posts to respond or report

You mention that I agreed not to respond to Lemlin. I've received a ban all three times I have responded to him this year.

and yet you are surprised when it happens again. could this not be proof of consistency in moderation?

Why has he not received a ban every time he has responded to one of my posts? He does this very regularly. Will he get a yellow card every time he responds to one of my posts moving forward?

I have instructed the mods to red card such behaviour from either of you. next time this happens, I'll review the number of cards and the issue will get permanently resolved.

A strange precedent has been set that could have easily been avoided using a little common sense.

I agree. not sure we are agreeing on which party should have shown the common sense though.

Just to add, this is a cracking line. It should be quoted to all people that end up getting bans by reacting to trolls - "Well its your own fault for not ignoring him"

just to add: you KNEW you would receive a ban for responding to Lemlin or rising to any bait and you still didn't put him on ignore. To me, that's just mind boggling unless you want to read his posts and be insulted because you then you can justify any outburst and claim victimisation when a mod actually follows through on his promised outcome.

In future, report the post and let a mod deal with it. You have been told this too many times in the past and yet you still rack up cards and bans for ignoring mod instructions and insulting users directly.