The alleged effect of the cut to career guidance counsellor allocation.

endakenny

The ASTI and the TUI have said that the removal of the special allocation of career guidance counsellors is having an adverse effect on pupils.

I am skeptical about this claim because career guidance counsellors are not qualified on the issue of mental health; they are qualified only to give career guidance, which is mostly given on a class basis anyway.

Furthermore, assisting pupils shouldn't be confined to the career guidance counsellor. Every member of staff - secretaries and caretakers as well as teachers - has a moral duty to assist pupils.

gaeilgebeo

I disagree.
I work in a DEIS school and the cut in guidance has had a hugely negative effect on our school.
To say that the guidance counselors are qualified only to give career guidance is very short-sighted.

A guidance counselor is trained to encourage, support, and foster positive academic, career, social, and personal development in students in their schools.
They provide advice, pastoral care and resolve conflicts.
They liaise with parents and teachers and are the link person between both.
They are often the biggest student advocates in the school.
They can teach/train staff on student issues that may arise.
They are often the first member of staff called upon in a crisis.


They provide referrals to those bodies/organisations who are qualified to deal with the more serious situations.
That said, many guidance counselors are highly trained in the area of pastoral care and mental health.

We now have our excellent, invaluable counselor teaching 11 hours in a subject she hasn't taught in twenty years, while the students are lining up outside her office or often just sent back to class.

Of course there should be a whole-school approach to guidance, but do not underestimate or under rate the value of a guidance counselor and the effect the cuts have had on schools.

RealJohn

Guidance counsellors aren't always just career guidance counsellors these days. I know the guidance counsellor in our place has more than than just career guidance qualifications (I couldn't tell you exactly what) and considers the pastoral care side of his job to be at least as important if not more important than the career guidance.

That being said, I think that there is too much mollycoddling done to students these days and I suspect that sometimes, it just fosters a victim mentality in them whereby they want to complain about everything, take responsibility for nothing and generally take up school resources that could be better used elsewhere. I'm not saying that no students benefit from guidance sessions but our counsellor used to be of the opinion that you should give the students as much counseling time as you can and while the majority of it will be taken up with minor things that might not need counseling, at least you'll probably get the ones who really need it too (and students who need it will feel less stigmatised for actually seeking counselling).

The cut in counselling hours has probably resulted in the minor cases taking up almost all of the time and the ones genuinely in need being left to fend for themselves (through no fault of the counsellors), not to mention that what it really was was more money saving by the government. They claimed it was giving the schools more autonomy in using their counselling allocation but what they were really doing was cutting the overall hours allocated to schools and let them decide which they'd rather sacrifice: teaching hours or counselling hours.

This government has no shame when it comes to education cuts.

endakenny

RealJohn wrote: »

Guidance counsellors aren't always just career guidance counsellors these days. I know the guidance counsellor in our place has more than than just career guidance qualifications (I couldn't tell you exactly what) and considers the pastoral care side of his job to be at least as important if not more important than the career guidance.

That being said, I think that there is too much mollycoddling done to students these days and I suspect that sometimes, it just fosters a victim mentality in them whereby they want to complain about everything, take responsibility for nothing and generally take up school resources that could be better used elsewhere. I'm not saying that no students benefit from guidance sessions but our counsellor used to be of the opinion that you should give the students as much counseling time as you can and while the majority of it will be taken up with minor things that might not need counseling, at least you'll probably get the ones who really need it too (and students who need it will feel less stigmatised for actually seeking counselling).

The cut in counselling hours has probably resulted in the minor cases taking up almost all of the time and the ones genuinely in need being left to fend for themselves (through no fault of the counsellors), not to mention that what it really was was more money saving by the government. They claimed it was giving the schools more autonomy in using their counselling allocation but what they were really doing was cutting the overall hours allocated to schools and let them decide which they'd rather sacrifice: teaching hours or counselling hours.

This government has no shame when it comes to education cuts.

The guidance counsellors should tell those pupils who have minor issues that they will have to deal with their own problems because other pupils are in greater need of help.

Every member of staff has a part to play in helping pupils.

Ruairí Quinn had a choice between removing the special allocation of guidance counsellors and increasing the pupil-teacher ratio. There wasn't - and still isn't - enough money to avoid that choice.

At the end of the day, the sky isn't falling.

endakenny

Schools can apply for an increase in career guidance time.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/students-suicide-attempt-sparks-rowback-on-cuts-28812668.html

The department last night confirmed to the Irish Independent that an application was received from the school and, as a result, it was allocated an additional 11 concessionary hours for the 2012/13 year.

There is no evidence that the guidance cutback has led to an increase of suicide attempts among pupils. Guidance counsellors need to prioritise those pupils who have serious problems over those pupils who have minor problems.

Believe it or not, government ministers do care about these issues. They simply have to make difficult decisions about the allocation of limited resources.

endakenny

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I disagree.
I work in a DEIS school and the cut in guidance has had a hugely negative effect on our school.
To say that the guidance counselors are qualified only to give career guidance is very short-sighted.

A guidance counselor is trained to encourage, support, and foster positive academic, career, social, and personal development in students in their schools.
They provide advice, pastoral care and resolve conflicts.
They liaise with parents and teachers and are the link person between both.
They are often the biggest student advocates in the school.
They can teach/train staff on student issues that may arise.
They are often the first member of staff called upon in a crisis.


They provide referrals to those bodies/organisations who are qualified to deal with the more serious situations.
That said, many guidance counselors are highly trained in the area of pastoral care and mental health.

We now have our excellent, invaluable counselor teaching 11 hours in a subject she hasn't taught in twenty years, while the students are lining up outside her office or often just sent back to class.

Of course there should be a whole-school approach to guidance, but do not underestimate or under rate the value of a guidance counselor and the effect the cuts have had on schools.

Schools have to adapt to the economic situation. There isn't enough money to meet all of their demands.

smallgarden

Career guidance is only about a third of the job and of the current courses. Basic counselling methods and skills make up a good chunk of the course. Very few people have a proper understanding of our role in schools. Its like if people just assumed science teachers just taught biology. Also most have either lost jobs or had hours severely cut but are expected to do the same work in a fraction of the time. It is one of the few teaching jobs where you need a teaching qualification and an extra qualification.

Imagine if in the morning there were 1,000 maths teachers jobs but someone decided to half this number overnight suddenly making there only be 500 jobs. This is effectively what has happened in guidance. It is the only job sector in Ireland that has been massacred by a government decision. There are less jobs in all teaching subjects but none of which require an extra 2years masters course on top of the basic teaching qualifications. Yes there are cutbacks everywhere but this is a profession decimated by government decisions.Very few people have the respect for guidance that it actually deserves.

smallgarden

endakenny wrote: »

The ASTI and the TUI have said that the removal of the special allocation of career guidance counsellors is having an adverse effect on pupils.

I am skeptical about this claim because career guidance counsellors are not qualified on the issue of mental health; they are qualified only to give career guidance, which is mostly given on a class basis anyway.

Furthermore, assisting pupils shouldn't be confined to the career guidance counsellor. Every member of staff - secretaries and caretakers as well as teachers - has a moral duty to assist pupils.

Educate yourself on the actual role of a school guidance counsellor

seavill

endakenny wrote: »

Schools have to adapt to the economic situation. There isn't enough money to meet all of their demands.

I think that you are only trying to stirr things again.

Before posting something as fact please understand the facts. A guidance counsellor is qualified in more than just careers advice.
Secondly if you knew anything about how schools run day to day the job is essential to dealing with the non educational issues.
A simple example was the new programme on Chanel 4 last night where a girls mother was dying and in and out of hospital a class teacher can't help in that situation where trying to teach 29 others at the same time
Again not knowing how a school actually works pastoral care is looked after by every member of staff in any school I have worked in. However having someone with the time allocation to deal with things along with the correct skills is essential.

Finally on your quote the next time a kid that is suicidal or being beaten up at home and needs someone to help ill tell out counsellor to tell them to suck it up and adapt to the economic situation yea? Just tell them sorry no money to deal with any problems these days?
Also people's personal experiences in schools will alter the opinions

endakenny

seavill wrote: »

Finally on your quote the next time a kid that is suicidal or being beaten up at home and needs someone to help ill tell out counsellor to tell them to suck it up and adapt to the economic situation yea? Just tell them sorry no money to deal with any problems these days?

If a kid is suicidal then call a doctor. If a kid is being beaten up then call the Gardaí. Career guidance counsellors don't have the necessary expertise to deal with those incidents.

You seem to think that it's the Government's fault that some children are suicidal and that some parents have abused their children.

seavill

I won't waste my time debating with you any more, you have no idea what a counsellor does, you didnt even respond to the rest of my post, you made false claims about their qualifications in your first post.

When you know what you are talking about come back to me then, until then try to be a little informed before you post your comments (wind ups)

mirrorwall14

endakenny wrote: »

If a kid is suicidal then call a doctor. If a kid is being beaten up then call the Gardaí. Career guidance counsellors don't have the necessary expertise to deal with those incidents.

You seem to think that it's the Government's fault that some children are suicidal and that some parents have abused their children.

Of course it's not the governments fault but that doesn't mean schools can stick their head in the sand over this.

In my first year teaching in my current school a student blurted out to me that they had tried to kill themselves at lunch. I had spotted him in an alcove and stuck my head around the corner, when he looked up in tears I obviously asked was he ok and that was the response. I was due in a class of 30 and have absolutely no training in dealing with such a situation.

This was just prior to the guidance cuts. Luckily our guidance counsellors office was only down the corridor, I was able to grab a student and send for her and she was there within 5 minutes to sit with the student, calm them down, release me for class and start the wheels rolling for getting him help.

Today in this situation Id have been stuck, the chances are that guidance counsellor would have been in class-could have been anywhere in out multiple buildings. I'd have had to send for the principal/deputy as the contact person and anyone in a large school knows how busy they are. I could have been left with that student for at least 15-20 minutes while they were found an that's assuming they were in their office and not somewhere else. I have no idea what I would have said, I know what I'm not supposed to say but not what to actually say. I had a group of 30 waiting who would have been climbing the walls.


The long and the short of it is that in that students most crucial phase, he would have been with a completely out of depth teacher, left waiting for someone to come, who even then probably wouldn't have training. Cover would need to be organised for the guidance counsellor and he would need to be monitored, outside of a classroom situation while parents were called and authorities informed etc. This would be less than ideal!


Our school has nigh on 800 students. We have an excellent guidance department. At any given time there are between 20-30 students (that the school know of) dealing with serious issues while trying to attend school: eating disorders, depression, suicidal ideation, cutting, anxiety, money worries, divorce etc etc. While they attend outside therapy, contact with the school is crucial and regular updates vital. The school needs to know to be concerned if they go missing, to learn the warning signs, to let teachers know to reduce expectations etc. The guidance counsellors are trying to do this liaison on top of dealing with the low level bullying/ fights etc.

Guidance is crucial particularly at second level. I see over 170 students a week. Ye reality is that I may not spot issues arising due to the sheer quantity of students and the workload. The safe space of the guidance office used to work (and still does to the best ability of them under the restrictions) brilliantly for our students to go to when they had issues. Unfortunately more often than not now, the student could work up the courage to drop in only to find on multiple occasions that there is no one there.




That turned into an essay.
TLDR: A good guidance counselling system is worth it's weight in gold and the time allocated was vital to many students.

RealJohn

endakenny wrote: »

The guidance counsellors should tell those pupils who have minor issues that they will have to deal with their own problems because other pupils are in greater need of help.

Every member of staff has a part to play in helping pupils.

Ruairí Quinn had a choice between removing the special allocation of guidance counsellors and increasing the pupil-teacher ratio. There wasn't - and still isn't - enough money to avoid that choice.

At the end of the day, the sky isn't falling.

Are you the real Enda Kenny?

endakenny

RealJohn wrote: »

Are you the real Enda Kenny?

Don't be silly.

endakenny

seavill wrote: »

I won't waste my time debating with you any more, you have no idea what a counsellor does, you didnt even respond to the rest of my post, you made false claims about their qualifications in your first post.

When you know what you are talking about come back to me then, until then try to be a little informed before you post your comments (wind ups)

Now, I'm responding to the rest of your post:

Principals and deputy principals also have a duty towards pupils' well-being. It's unlikely that a guidance counsellor would be going to and from the hospital during school hours anyway. That was an extreme case that you mentioned and such cases are rare.

evolving_doors

Telling teachers what is happening in their schools when you don't teach yourself is like being blind and telling an artist their painting is rubbish.

Which is tantamount to flaming.

Thread closed

Member warned.

Mod