Bad tenant upstairs

Dors1976

I live in a block of apartments and I have a very noisy tenant living in the apartment above me. I have complainted to the letting agent (who has resigned from manageing the property) the managing agent of the estate who says their hands are tied because our issue is not with an owner occupier. And thirdly the landlord, who says he has a case pending with the PRTB.

The tenant himself claims we are racist. The noise never stops, doors banging, furniture being moved across the wooden floors. Phone calls on the balconey at all hours of the night. People coming and going at all times of days and nights. (we have a shared front door) The tenant is fully aware that there are both children and shift workers living here. We have all spoken to him many times.

In April the letting agent issues him a 28 day eviction notice and then a 14 day notice, but he never signed to accept either.

My question is, as owner occupiers is there anything that we can legally do? The kids are awakend almost every night and we are all shattered. I think it's disgusting that 1 person can upset 11 people for so long with no repercussions at all.

Uriel.

You could attempt to have the matter dealt with through the PRTB yourself, although given that there is supposedly a process underway by the landlord it's unlikely to be of any great additional benefit.

You could pursue a case via the district court under the 1994 noise regulations. You would need to gather witnesses/evidence to support your case. The court may grant an order requiring that the person keep noise levels down at particular times etc.

A breach of such a court order carries a fine of up to 1270euro.

It's a bit of a drawn out process I guess. Perhaps notification of a court case might be sufficient to make the neighbour copy on though

The_Conductor

The landlord actually has a duty of care to all the neighbours- and recent rulings by the PRTB have reinforced that. In one specific case in Cork- residents of a developement who were subjected to protracted antisocial behaviour on the part of tenants won a case, and cost a landlord 30k.

In that instance- the other residents- took PRTB cases against the landlord- for failing to adequately address antisocial behaviour on the part of their tenants.

The Cork Examiner reported the case here:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlord-fined-30k-for-tenants-actions-217217.html

So- if this is ongoing- coming together as a group and lodging a complaint with the PRTB- could very well have the desired effect.

Also- and this is just an observation- an improbably high number of comings and goings- is often a sign of a business occuring in dwelling.........

Uriel.

The_Conductor wrote: »

The landlord actually has a duty of care to all the neighbours- and recent rulings by the PRTB have reinforced that. In one specific case in Cork- residents of a developement who were subjected to protracted antisocial behaviour on the part of tenants won a case, and cost a landlord 30k.

In that instance- the other residents- took PRTB cases against the landlord- for failing to adequately address antisocial behaviour on the part of their tenants.

The Cork Examiner reported the case here:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlord-fined-30k-for-tenants-actions-217217.html

So- if this is ongoing- coming together as a group and lodging a complaint with the PRTB- could very well have the desired effect.

Also- and this is just an observation- an improbably high number of comings and goings- is often a sign of a business occuring in dwelling.........

That's a very extreme case. I'd imagine if the landlord in the case the OP highlights is taking some action (i.e. Through PRTB), then the OP is unlikely to have any joy against the landlord directly (at the moment anyway).

It's still a ridiculous situation that individuals are not held accountable for their own actions. It can be very difficult (save in extreme cases perhaps) for a landlord to manage a situation of a noisy tenant. The landlord is being placed in a position of trying to act as a judge in many respects. That's the legal setup I suppose, but it isn't ideal in my opinion

The_Conductor

It may have been an extreme case (and indeed it was)- however the big thing is that it has set a precedent- the precedent being that the landlord has a duty of care towards neighbours- and any failure of that duty has a financial cost associated with it. Even choosing bad tenants who do not fit into a neighbourhood- is theoretically a breach of this duty of care.

the_syco

Dors1976 wrote: »

Phone calls on the balconey at all hours of the night. People coming and going at all times of days and nights.

Put a tape recorder device on your balcony one of the nights, and record what he says on the phone calls. If he mentions drugs, contact your local Gardai station.

Dors1976 wrote: »

My question is, as owner occupiers is there anything that we can legally do?

As above. maybe look into taking a case against the landlord?

Grandpa Hassan

The_Conductor wrote: »

It may have been an extreme case (and indeed it was)- however the big thing is that it has set a precedent- the precedent being that the landlord has a duty of care towards neighbours- and any failure of that duty has a financial cost associated with it. Even choosing bad tenants who do not fit into a neighbourhood- is theoretically a breach of this duty of care.

The LL is taking it through the PTRB. I would say that his duty of care is discharged through the action that the PTRB carry out.

It would be ridiculous to hammer a landlord for 'choosing bad tenants'. How do you know they are bad tenants until they move in. Once the LL found out they are bad tenants he followed the appropriate process.

Those that are suggesting taking a case against the LL are probably the same as those who would complain if the LL did no go through the proper channels to evict a tenant (which it appears that he is doing).

Maybe the OP could add their name to the LL's case....a joint action against the tenants

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

the_syco

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

It would be ridiculous to hammer a landlord for 'choosing bad tenants'.

I suggested the "sue the landlord" route, less for choosing bad tenants, and more for half-heartedly going through the stages.

Actually, OP, have you asked the landlord about giving his tenant the 7 day notice?

Export

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think that's the crew that rocked up to my gaff on Monday.

NightOfTheHunt

Hi OP do you own the apartment or are you renting?

the_syco

NightOfTheHunt wrote: »

Hi OP do you own the apartment or are you renting?

From the OP;

Dors1976 wrote: »

as owner occupiers

So I'm guessing they own it.

amdublin

There's 11 people living in your apartment :eek:

Grandpa Hassan

amdublin wrote: »

There's 11 people living in your apartment :eek:

Wow. Didn't notice that. Cosy!

The_Conductor

Ok- you've had your fun, now quit it guys.

Big Davey

[
If the tenant refused to sign for the 14 day notice the letting agent or landlord should have straight away re sent the letter by "express post" this is standard practice. The PRTB use express post as it does not need to be signed for and is proof of delivery.
I feel for you and can imagine the stress you are going through.



QUOTE=Dors1976;92034683]I live in a block of apartments and I have a very noisy tenant living in the apartment above me. I have complainted to the letting agent (who has resigned from manageing the property) the managing agent of the estate who says their hands are tied because our issue is not with an owner occupier. And thirdly the landlord, who says he has a case pending with the PRTB.

The tenant himself claims we are racist. The noise never stops, doors banging, furniture being moved across the wooden floors. Phone calls on the balconey at all hours of the night. People coming and going at all times of days and nights. (we have a shared front door) The tenant is fully aware that there are both children and shift workers living here. We have all spoken to him many times.

In April the letting agent issues him a 28 day eviction notice and then a 14 day notice, but he never signed to accept either.

My question is, as owner occupiers is there anything that we can legally do? The kids are awakend almost every night and we are all shattered. I think it's disgusting that 1 person can upset 11 people for so long with no repercussions at all.[/QUOTE]

Dors1976

amdublin wrote: »

There's 11 people living in your apartment :eek:

There are 12 apartements in the block.

Dors1976

The_Conductor wrote: »

The landlord actually has a duty of care to all the neighbours- and recent rulings by the PRTB have reinforced that. In one specific case in Cork- residents of a developement who were subjected to protracted antisocial behaviour on the part of tenants won a case, and cost a landlord 30k.

In that instance- the other residents- took PRTB cases against the landlord- for failing to adequately address antisocial behaviour on the part of their tenants.

The Cork Examiner reported the case here:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlord-fined-30k-for-tenants-actions-217217.html

So- if this is ongoing- coming together as a group and lodging a complaint with the PRTB- could very well have the desired effect.

Also- and this is just an observation- an improbably high number of comings and goings- is often a sign of a business occuring in dwelling.........

That's very interesting reading. We are in the process of getting the other people in the block to sign a petition. And there are 3 people talking about taking legal action against the landlord.

I've decided to sell up because of it, it's so devestating the lack of respect on the tenants part and that the landlord seems so lazy about it. I haven't seen him up at the property in months.

Sun in Capri

Sadly this is another good reason not to buy an apartment.

The_Conductor

Sun in Capri wrote: »

Sadly this is another good reason not to buy an apartment.

It could just as easily be a house a few doors up (the case in the Examiner was in a housing estate- not an apartment complex). It really isn't anything to do with the type of dwelling- its a lack of sufficient diligence on the part of the landlord to properly vet his or her tenants, and a complete lack of any respect on the part of tenants for their neighbours alongside a lack of cognisance as to how their actions are making their (neighbours) lives a misery.

OP- if you're already suggesting legal action- as a small first step- get as many of the other residents as possible to complain to the PRTB.

Dors1976

Terrible night of partying on Sunday night. Didn't stop till after 2am. We were all awake and then we counted 11 people leaving at 2am and then at 5:30 they came back again.

I text and emailed the landlord and Management company about this. Totally at my wits end.

Landlord came up last night and spoke to all the residents, he said he's tried to evict him in the past but the tenant made a counterclaim of harrassment and racisim and when the landlord went to evict the PRTB said it was an illegal eviction until the racisim and harrassment was investigated and the landlord could be liable for a fine of €20,000.
I offered the landlord a nights stay in my apartment so he could see how bad it is. He said we need to all document dates, times, and what's happening. Phone calls don't count. All must be written.

It feels as it owner occupiers have no rights

Mrs OBumble

Instead of harassing the landlord (who seems to be doing all he can) would you not consider the EPA route yourselves?

ref: http://www.epa.ie/about/faq/#d.en.44135

Dors1976

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Instead of harassing the landlord (who seems to be doing all he can) would you not consider the EPA route yourselves?

ref: http://www.epa.ie/about/faq/#d.en.44135

Thank you for the link. We weren't aware that the landlord was doing so much as he didn't communicte with us in the past only through the Management company or letting agent.

Th3B1tcH

Looks like the LL is trying sort it out and get rid off them , maybe you and the other people in the block can help (as there affecting everyone there).
Keep records/proof of all antisocial behavior,complain to police and here (just add the www)
citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html
More complains the better and will help show the LL is not being racist and can get rid for antosocial behavior.

GL

Dors1976

just a quick update - the tenant is STILL there. He was due to go October 24th but he apparently has no where to go and is staying put until he finds somewhere else. The resident's a beyond fed up at this stage with the constant flow of people to the apartment block at late hours and the noise.
Is there anything else that can be done?

the_syco

Dors1976 wrote: »

The resident's a beyond fed up at this stage with the constant flow of people to the apartment block at late hours and the noise.

How do they enter the apartment block, and is there an outside gate that they need to access? Have management put up a couple of cameras for security purposes, and see if the number of people drops. The drop in numbers will also encourage the person to leave.

Currently the neighbour seems to have a base of operations that is highly accessible for all of their clients. Thus no reason to leave. Less clients will mean less reason to stay.

daveharnett

Dors1976 wrote: »

Is there anything else that can be done?

It can't hurt to have a conversation with your local sergeant. Noise complaints are usually a pretty low priority, but if you explain your collective situation you might get some attention. Worst thing that can happen is nothing.

Dors1976

I've put my property for sale. So fed up with bad tenants and if that market is picking up then I think it's a good opportunity to try to move.
Thanks for all your advice everyone

Brego888

Wow that's extreme. But best of luck with it though.

Kensington

Horrible situation to be in

Do you really want to move though?
You could get all others living in your block to collectively file a noise complaint in the District Court - the landlord might even pitch in with you:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

Also - I'd check out your liability when selling the apartment on. For example, let's say you make no mention of the problem neighbour, or the buyer asks the question "What are the neighbours like?", can the buyer came back to pursue you legally later on for non-disclosure of the fact?

ABajaninCork

Kensington wrote: »

Horrible situation to be in

Do you really want to move though?
You could get all others living in your block to collectively file a noise complaint in the District Court - the landlord might even pitch in with you:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environmental_protection/noise_regulations.html

Also - I'd check out your liability when selling the apartment on. For example, let's say you make no mention of the problem neighbour, or the buyer asks the question "What are the neighbours like?", can the buyer came back to pursue you legally later on for non-disclosure of the fact?

Yes, they can.

Dors1976

I asked the estate agent and she said that you don't have to disclose about bad tenants. Surprisingly enough that apartment is up for sale online but no board on the apartment. Guess the landlord got fed up too.

ABajaninCork

Dors1976 wrote: »

I asked the estate agent and she said that you don't have to disclose about bad tenants. Surprisingly enough that apartment is up for sale online but no board on the apartment. Guess the landlord got fed up too.

The estate agent isn't a solicitor versed in property law. The question of the neighbours does come up in the pre-contract queries, which you have to answer truthfully. It then forms the contract between vendor and buyer. If there's anything that the buyer finds out subsequently that you didn't mention in the questionnaire, then the vendor can be sued.

Dors1976

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Yes, they can.

ABajaninCork wrote: »

The estate agent isn't a solicitor versed in property law. The question of the neighbours does come up in the pre-contract queries, which you have to answer truthfully. It then forms the contract between vendor and buyer. If there's anything that the buyer finds out subsequently that you didn't mention in the questionnaire, then the vendor can be sued.

Oh - not mention of it anywhere by anyone. Must ring about it. Should be ok though as apartment with bad tenant is also up for sale so problem should be solved

mountsky

Apartment blocks are nothing short of a recipe for disaster,peace and quiet are non existent, landlords don't particularly give a monkeys they just want their 'blood money',quite frankly they don't really care at all,the PRTB,hmm,I've heard they can take forever and three days to solve stuff if at all,so its kinda a non-runner per sa

K.Flyer

mountsky wrote: »

Apartment blocks are nothing short of a recipe for disaster,peace and quiet are non existent, landlords don't particularly give a monkeys they just want their 'blood money',quite frankly they don't really care at all,the PRTB,hmm,I've heard they can take forever and three days to solve stuff if at all,so its kinda a non-runner per sa

I think thats a bit disingenuous towards good landlords.
Trying to get rid of a troublesome tennant can be much harder than you think.
We used to live in an apartment where the apartment below us, on the ground floor with its own door, turned into hell on earth with partying every weekend from midnight till noon Friday night to Monday. There was always huge crowds and fights always breaking out.
The landlord had fully renovated the apartment before they had moved in and they destroyed it.
Management company and Letting agent got nowhere, the landlord, who even changed the locks but they kicked the door back in, was basically told to Fu@k off by them.
In the end it was the constant harassment by the Garda due to the regular fighting and drinking outside the apartment that they left.
There's a lot more to what was going on in that situation which is why the Garda took a keener interest, otherwise the L.L. the Management company and the Letting agent were powerless against these people who basically became squatters in someone else's property.

H3llR4iser

mountsky wrote: »

Apartment blocks are nothing short of a recipe for disaster,peace and quiet are non existent, landlords don't particularly give a monkeys they just want their 'blood money',quite frankly they don't really care at all,the PRTB,hmm,I've heard they can take forever and three days to solve stuff if at all,so its kinda a non-runner per sa

They work perfectly fine anywhere that's not Ireland and are the most common form of accommodation in the cities. The problem clearly lies elsewhere.

handlemaster

Selling now might not be a bad idea

Dors1976

handlemaster wrote: »

Selling now might not be a bad idea

Yep - feel it's best now. Fingers crossed!

ABajaninCork

H3llR4iser wrote: »

They work perfectly fine anywhere that's not Ireland and are the most common form of accommodation in the cities. The problem clearly lies elsewhere.

Yep. The crap quality of a lot of apartments thrown up by greedy developers during the Celtic Tiger years...

Graces7

The more I read threads like this the happier I am to live virtually in the middle of a field with no neighbours. You have my sympathy.