making fire hydrant climb proof

GoodLord

An elderly person has a fire hydrant bollard out side their home. As you probably know this is a stone bollard about three feet high with a yellow square and the letters Hyd

Kids use it to climb into her garden. Can a frame be built around it in a way they cannot climb? The bollard and yellow sign will still be fully visible

Peregrinus

1. If you can devise a frame that kids cannot climb, I will be very surprised!

2. On the assumption that the bollard is outside her wall, on the footpath or roadway, she has no right to erect any structure around it.

3. The local authority will certainly object if she does, both because she shouldn't be putting anything in the highway, and because the hydrant marker in particular is part of the emergency services infrastructure. They don't want it interfered with at all. Her view as to whether the bollard is "fully visible" behind its frame and the authority's view may not coincide.

4. If she has a security problem, she needs to think about raising the height of her garden wall, or otherwise improving barriers to entry.

Ken.

Could she ask the council to remove the bollard and allow the H to be stuck to her wall?.

Peregrinus

ken wrote: »

Could she ask the council to remove the bollard and allow the H to be stuck to her wall?.

She can ask.

There's actually a code of practice in place about where and how the location of fire hydrants are marked - when bollards are used, when wall-plates, etc. The local authority will be reluctant to depart from whatever the code suggests for the particular location of this hydrant, because the code dictates what emergency service workers will expect to see, and what they will be looking for. So the mere fact that a wall-plate is possible doesn't mean that they'll go for it.

On the other hand, they might. She has nothing to lose by asking. And if she's an elderly person, living alone, who is anxious about security, they might listen.

Snake

Bloody disgrace that someone would go climbing into an old womans garden for no reason.

GoodLord

Snake wrote: »

Bloody disgrace that someone would go climbing into an old womans garden for no reason.

just scummy brats with no upbringing

brian_t

Anti-Intruder Paint


Anti-Intruder (Anti-Climb) paint is a thick non drying coating that deters would be burglars and vandals.

• Use on walls, pipes, window sills, fencing, etc.
• Not unsightly like illegally used broken glass.
• Leaves surfaces unclimable.
• Leaves tell-tale marks on hands and clothing.

GoodLord

brian_t wrote: »

Anti-Intruder Paint


Anti-Intruder (Anti-Climb) paint is a thick non drying coating that deters would be burglars and vandals.

• Use on walls, pipes, window sills, fencing, etc.
• Not unsightly like illegally used broken glass.
• Leaves surfaces unclimable.
• Leaves tell-tale marks on hands and clothing.

and when some scum slips on it or ruins their clothes?

afatbollix

You expect them to come knocking on your door? Its a top of a wall not a door handle!

SouthTippBass

brian_t wrote: »

Anti-Intruder Paint


Anti-Intruder (Anti-Climb) paint is a thick non drying coating that deters would be burglars and vandals.

• Use on walls, pipes, window sills, fencing, etc.
• Not unsightly like illegally used broken glass.
• Leaves surfaces unclimable.
• Leaves tell-tale marks on hands and clothing.

This works very well. As a teenager I used to short cut over this fence by the train station, until one day I grab the top of the fence and its covered by this paint. Tis sticky and black and not something you want on your hands. I started taking the long way round after that.

DublinDilbert

Can you post a pic? Is it very narrow? Is it up against her wall?

If is narrow and at her wall, a small bit of sand and cement could be used on top of it and put a step angle on it. This will mean no one can climb up on it.

brian_t

GoodLord wrote: »

and when some scum slips on it or ruins their clothes?

Ensure paint is applied 2m above ground level, and warn the public that anti-climb paint has been applied – Sign sold separately. (Legal action can be taken against owners of premises with anti-climb paint, by anybody affected by the paint applied lower than 2m from the ground)

http://www.puresafety.ie/pdv/3214/714/751/Security/Anti-Climb-Products/Anti-Climb-Paint.html

GoodLord

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Can you post a pic? Is it very narrow? Is it up against her wall?

If is narrow and at her wall, a small bit of sand and cement could be used on top of it and put a step angle on it. This will mean no one can climb up on it.

what is a step angle? it comes to a point at top it is 2 feet high and 10 ins wide

Wheelnut

The local authority probably put up a post for the marker plate because of previous experience. Some property owners have objected strongly to a plate being fixed to their wall (even though it might benefit them in an emergency) and others who were not happy have painted the plates to match their building. Of course there are regulations that allow the local authority to put up marker plates but what judge wants to hear cases about six-inch square plates on walls? As usual it's just a case of some people spoiling it for everyone else.

Beano

GoodLord wrote: »

what is a step angle? it comes to a point at top it is 2 feet high and 10 ins wide

presumably that was meant to say steep angle not step angle. If you put some cement on top so that there is no flat surface to stand on it may stop them using it and it wouldnt impair the sign. Alternatively plant some thorny hedging inside the wall.

GoodLord

Beano wrote: »

presumably that was meant to say steep angle not step angle. If you put some cement on top so that there is no flat surface to stand on it may stop them using it and it wouldnt impair the sign. Alternatively plant some thorny hedging inside the wall.

it s already shaped like the pic

Beano

GoodLord wrote: »

it s already shaped like the pic

exactly, so they can stand on the point. If you put some concrete on top that sloped upwards at a steep angle from front to back they wont be able to climb on it.

GoodLord

Beano wrote: »

exactly, so they can stand on the point. If you put some concrete on top that sloped upwards at a steep angle from front to back they wont be able to climb on it.

They stand on the two angled side one foot on each

Beano

GoodLord wrote: »

They stand on the two angled side one foot on each

Thats why i suggested you put concrete on the entire top not just the point.

GoodLord

Beano wrote: »

Thats why i suggested you put concrete on the entire top not just the point.

sorry don't understand your suggestion , could you upload a drawing

Beano

GoodLord wrote: »

sorry don't understand your suggestion , could you upload a drawing

Afraid not. My drawing skills are nil and even more so in 3d.

Beano

ok, here is a really crude drawing of what i propose. The black outline is the existing structure. The grey lines are the outline of where i propose the concrete to. They will probably need to be a lot steeper than i have them in the drawing.

http://imgur.com/aJZN5eQ

woppi

Peregrinus wrote: »

She can ask.

There's actually a code of practice in place about where and how the location of fire hydrants are marked - when bollards are used, when wall-plates, etc. The local authority will be reluctant to depart from whatever the code suggests for the particular location of this hydrant, because the code dictates what emergency service workers will expect to see, and what they will be looking for. So the mere fact that a wall-plate is possible doesn't mean that they'll go for it.

On the other hand, they might. She has nothing to lose by asking. And if she's an elderly person, living alone, who is anxious about security, they might listen.

This is where the local government representatives could potentially do something useful. As in, if the existing policy does not allow for the hydrant marker location to change, or for a different kind of marker to be used, the policy should change.

Note that a fire hydrant marker does not always have to indicate the location of the outlet valve but could also indicate that it is within a specified radius (i.e. 4 metres). So, there may be the potential to simply move the marker.

Bottom line, contact the council about the problem and if fobbed off, contact your local representative(s).

At the risk of going off topic...I am curious to know if the department of environment and local government sets out the standards for fire hydrant markers, or if that is done on a regional basis. For example, I do know that in Dublin City a domestic residence should not be more than 46 metres from a hydrant outlet, but I don't know if that is the same across the country. Does anyone know if there are central standards on this?

Wheelnut

Try page 123 of this: http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

GoodLord

Beano wrote: »

ok, here is a really crude drawing of what i propose. The black outline is the existing structure. The grey lines are the outline of where i propose the concrete to. They will probably need to be a lot steeper than i have them in the drawing.

http://imgur.com/aJZN5eQ

And if one of them tries to get up on it and falls? isthere a forseeability issue here?

marieholmfan

Snake wrote: »

Bloody disgrace that someone would go climbing into an old womans garden for no reason.

Let them go home and leave their footballs in her garden forever! Children's right to play and the communities right to effective emergency services are as NOTHING compared to one old woman's paranoia!!!

marieholmfan

woppi wrote: »

This is where the local government representatives could potentially do something useful. As in, if the existing policy does not allow for the hydrant marker location to change, or for a different kind of marker to be used, the policy should change.

This is one of the most foolish things that I have ever read. So rather than a civil servant who is an expert in the location of fire hydrants making this decision a politician should do on the basis of the complaints of the shrillest and most anti social members of the community.

marieholmfan

GoodLord wrote: »

And if one of them tries to get up on it and falls? isthere a forseeability issue here?

God yes. Your mother would be creating an attractive nuisance on public land. The harder you make it to climb the harder children will try to climb it.

If the trespassers are children ignore them and if they are adolescents call the police.

GoodLord

marieholmfan wrote: »

Let them go home and leave their footballs in her garden forever! Children's right to play and the communities right to effective emergency services are as NOTHING compared to one old woman's paranoia!!!

children do not have a right to play if it interfers with others.YOU are one of thse all rights and NO responsibilities. And this is a discussion about legal aspects so keep your judgements to yourself
AND the person is NOT my mother so you are wrong as well

Bepolite

Adding cement to the bollard probably isn't a great idea:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0031/sec0002.html#sec2

Occupiers Liability Act for other issues raised in thread.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/act/pub/0010/

If someone is climbing into a garden without permission they've not been brought up very well.

GoodLord

Bepolite wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1991/en/act/pub/0031/sec0002.html#sec2
Would that apply to parents letting kids kick ball against cars. Are the parents being reckless to potential damage
.

If someone is climbing into a garden without permission they've not been brought up very well

There are lots of people in this country not brought up very well and lots of apologists for them too

goz83

Interfering with the bollard is a bad idea. I would bet that any attempt to add cement would leave a hideous result and leave whoever did it, liable for damages to public property and possibly open to an injury claim if one of the kids were to injure themselves.

It is not respectful for the kids to be jumping into the old ladies garden, but i'm sure there is a reason. The reason may be to fetch something, or perhaps they are just having fun. Cementing bollards is not the way around this and adding anti-climb paint to the top of the wall is not really a good idea either. They are kids, so maybe the OP can have a word with them. Some kids will listen and will refrain from climbing the wall. If that doesn't work, maybe a note to the parents to let them know that the old lady is terrified because kids are jumping into the garden. The note might ask that the parents make sure their kid is not doing it

I was a kid once. Climbing walls and even jumping into the odd back garden as part of a game was not out of the ordinary. There was nothing malicious or sinister about it. Coincidentally, one of these back gardens was accessed by the very same type of hydrant marker. We used that to climb the wall. I am pretty sure if I was told not to climb into the gardens by an adult, I would have stopped doing it. I was under the age of 10, so I hope I dont end up in jail for admitting my crimes online :P

hullaballoo

There's a great children's story by Oscar Wilde I saw in the Lambert puppet theatre recently called The Selfish Giant. I suppose that story would end with a PI claim and probably an epic third-party issue between the homeowner and the council if re-told with today's lens.

GoodLord

hullaballoo wrote: »

There's a great children's story by Oscar Wilde I saw in the Lambert puppet theatre recently called The Selfish Giant. I suppose that story would end with a PI claim and probably an epic third-party issue between the homeowner and the council if re-told with today's lens.

the selfish ones are the parents who do not control their children

marieholmfan

GoodLord wrote: »

the selfish ones are the parents who do not control their children

You should simply remove the fire hydrant. Before removing it inform the council that if they do not remove you will take matters into your own hands!

Peregrinus

marieholmfan wrote: »

You should simply remove the fire hydrant. Before removing it inform the council that if they do not remove you will take matters into your own hands!

Yes. Who needs fire hydrants anyway?